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Post by TRUTH TELLER on Nov 30, 2007 0:41:01 GMT -5
Yeah, but you could easily make the same argument going the other way. Why should the women fans have costume ball diva matches pushed onto them just so the WWE can cater to straight men? Because there's more men watching than women. It'd be like saying, why isn't there more explosions and sword fights on Days of our lives. You cater to the majority. And as for your previous point about smarks hating women fans and small children, I think it's simple, albeit kind of pretentious. They don't like fly-by-night fans who only follow the sport for some brainless fleeting reason, like thinking John Cena is hot, or wanting to wear a Rey Mysterio mask. I think it bothers certain hardcore fans that there's a good portion of the show being catered to people who are not really wrestling fans, and for whom WWE is just a passing fad.
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Post by SWH - Shane Hero on Nov 30, 2007 7:31:40 GMT -5
WWE needs to just have a clear, well defined vision of who they are and what they want to be and stick with it.
Think of your favorite movie of all time. Chances are it rules, because you love the characters, the story, the look. All of it meshes, and you like it.
As pointed out already, WWE has scantily clad women kissing each other, leading into their kid-friendly section. It makes the whole show seem direction-less and disjointed.
Think of a cool film like 300 or Sin City. Imagine how messed up it would be if randomly in the middle of that, we get a scene with a midget pretending to be a cartoon character. Would you excuse it by shrugging your shoulders and saying "I guess they're just trying to cater to kids" or "If you don't like it don't watch that scene".
The point is WWE has writers. They have a 2 hour time-slot. Really, that entire show should play out like every other TV show, where the entire show all relates to one another and has a common purpose.
Remember that show Oz? I always thought that was how WWE should aspire to make their TV shows, in as far as character interaction. You had all the elements WWE has, and the way everyone interacted, would basically turn heel and face and fight against each other and have feuds... that is how each week of WWE TV should come across these days. Either that or go the complete opposite direction, and return to the days where guys could just improvise... and let guys with natural charisma and talent get themselves over. Right now, we have the disjointed nature of a random, improvised show... but without the spontaneity or unpredictability, instead just bland cliches and flat dialog too much of the time.
Who knows, maybe if Hornswaggle were doing his own shtick rather than acting out skits pulled from 50 year old cartoons, he might actually be funny.
WWE should just say, 'this is who we are, this is what we do, and we're proud of it'. None of this trying to please everyone crap. Wouldn't it be better to have a show that really appeals to your target audience, all round, so they tune in religiously. Crap like Hornswaggle would just embarrass a lot of people into not wanting to watch WWE.
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AriadosMan
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Post by AriadosMan on Nov 30, 2007 11:49:29 GMT -5
Yeah, but you could easily make the same argument going the other way. Why should the women fans have costume ball diva matches pushed onto them just so the WWE can cater to straight men? You can't satisfy everyone all the time. A more diverse fanbase is GOOD. I can't be alone here in saying that if wrestling hadn't captured my attention as a kid in the 80's, I would certainly not be a fan today. No one would have given a whit about the attitude era if not for nostalgia. A more diverse fanbase is good. Things like Hornswoggle can easily be seen as pandering to "kiddy" tastes, though. And from personal experience, kids hate "kiddy" things more than anyone. What's weird is, I actually found him funny when he was just a comedy heel sidekick who would come out from under the ring to interfere in Finlay matches. When they started trying to build entire shows around him, then I quickly got bored on sick of his shtick. Just like "DAMN" and "What", WWE doesn't know when a joke is overplayed and starts to become unfunny. I'd probably be a Hornswoggle mark if he was confined to his original role as a peripheral comedy character. Now I'm just sick of him.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 30, 2007 11:58:35 GMT -5
[And as for your previous point about smarks hating women fans and small children, I think it's simple, albeit kind of pretentious. They don't like fly-by-night fans who only follow the sport for some brainless fleeting reason, like thinking John Cena is hot, or wanting to wear a Rey Mysterio mask. I think it bothers certain hardcore fans that there's a good portion of the show being catered to people who are not really wrestling fans, and for whom WWE is just a passing fad. And that right there is a problem I have with a lot of hardcore fans. It really shouldn't bother them, because that's just arrogant to be upset at someone who likes wrestling for a different reason than you. (Yes, I count pretty much anyone who semi-regularly watches the shows to be a wrestling fan. It's a form of entertainment with multiple aspects outside of the action.)
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Post by Gillberg: 0-175 on Nov 30, 2007 15:17:51 GMT -5
For the upmteenth zillionth time, The reason Hornswaggle is getting pushed is because he is supposed to appeal to little kids. The WWE is trying to shake off a reputation in the mass media as a company that forces its employees to take drugs that cause those employees to either die prematurely or turn into crazy murderers. The company needs to win back as much support as possible and improve its image, so it is trying to appeal to families and kids, and the Looney Tunes-style antics of Hornswaggle fits the bill. If you don't like the character, turn off your TV when he's on. If enough people turn off their TVs while the guy is onscreen, the company will take the ratings issue as a hint. Sorry, I know it seems obnoxious to start a new post for this, but the same question keeps coming up so many times that it's frankly kind of ridiculous. I'll understand if the mods prefer to lock this, but I almost think this thread, or something similar, should be stickied. No, you're absolutely correct. It's just sad that there is adult wrestling organization. Well, not "adult" but a mature wrestling fed out there. And no, ROH doesn't count.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 30, 2007 15:22:11 GMT -5
For the upmteenth zillionth time, The reason Hornswaggle is getting pushed is because he is supposed to appeal to little kids. The WWE is trying to shake off a reputation in the mass media as a company that forces its employees to take drugs that cause those employees to either die prematurely or turn into crazy murderers. The company needs to win back as much support as possible and improve its image, so it is trying to appeal to families and kids, and the Looney Tunes-style antics of Hornswaggle fits the bill. If you don't like the character, turn off your TV when he's on. If enough people turn off their TVs while the guy is onscreen, the company will take the ratings issue as a hint. Sorry, I know it seems obnoxious to start a new post for this, but the same question keeps coming up so many times that it's frankly kind of ridiculous. I'll understand if the mods prefer to lock this, but I almost think this thread, or something similar, should be stickied. No, you're absolutely correct. It's just sad that there is adult wrestling organization. Well, not "adult" but a mature wrestling fed out there. And no, ROH doesn't count. It's always been a little hard for me to embrace wrestling as a "mature" form of entertainment. When I watch an exciting match, I feel like I'm putting some of my maturity aside and letting myself cut loose, turning my brain off a little. Don't think I'm trying to belittle wrestling when I say that, but that's just the way I think most hardcore fans are really enjoying it.
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Ace Diamond
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Post by Ace Diamond on Nov 30, 2007 16:08:19 GMT -5
I don't mind the character. Just can't stand the Looney Tunes crap that's starting to make some WCW stuff look like Citizen Kane. Xanadu: Stately Home of Charles Foster Russo Russo: ...Polllleeee *breaks snowglobe, dies* Anyway, my thought is this. It is no longer THE storyline of the WWE. It's slowly being established that whatever Hornswaggle is doing is now falling out of the realms of logic, and hell, he's a leprechaun so maybe he HAS that ability, who smurfing knows. All i know is that I laugh at it and I don't regret that.
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Post by joeman on Nov 30, 2007 16:12:16 GMT -5
WWE has a diverse crowd. Many people cheer for different things. There are fans that love the larger than life characters such as Cena and Triple H, there are some that like the MMA-style aspect, some like high flyers and mindless spot-monkeying, smarks loves the workrate involve(which never makes since because WWE after Vince Jr took over was never deep on it), and there are people that love cheesy skits.
Hornswoggle skits don't bother me, and it doesn't take up much space. IT has a short shelve life, but if I was the owner and wanted to capitalize on it's popularity, I'd milk it out and I am pretty sure everyone here would do the exact same thing.
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metylerca
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Post by metylerca on Nov 30, 2007 16:15:11 GMT -5
I mentioned this in the wrestlecrap section. It appears clear that the reason for Hornswaggle to be Vince's son is to push Finally. He has appeared more on TV, got more mic time, and now looks to be building something with Vince. While I am not a huge fan of the Looney Tune stuff. I thought the segment on Raw was funny and I am old. Just my opinion Face push for Finlay is a weird idea, when he plays heel so much better. I always love commenting these posts; ....if the IWC ran wrestling, there'd be 50 minute matches with 100lb guys on every week, and they'd all be heels. geesh.
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AriadosMan
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Post by AriadosMan on Nov 30, 2007 16:16:38 GMT -5
Face push for Finlay is a weird idea, when he plays heel so much better. I always love commenting these posts; ....if the IWC ran wrestling, there'd be 50 minute matches with 100lb guys on every week, and they'd all be heels. geesh. But Finlay really does play heel better, considering he's been one for as long as I remember (going back to Monday Night Wars WCW).
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Post by joeman on Nov 30, 2007 16:17:43 GMT -5
Face push for Finlay is a weird idea, when he plays heel so much better. I always love commenting these posts; ....if the IWC ran wrestling, there'd be 50 minute matches with 100lb guys on every week, and they'd all be heels. geesh. and yet they will still complain...
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metylerca
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Post by metylerca on Nov 30, 2007 16:20:57 GMT -5
Why should I have to turn off my TV? How about these corporations like the WWE start ENTERTAINING loyal fans? What's actually ridiculous is just accepting what they hand us and not speaking on it. 15 threads on a subject isn't the answer, but people speak on this because we shouldn't have to just give in to what someone believes is entertainment. If it sucks and we are their ratings, they need to change it. That's just it, we're not just their prime audience. If you were to go around and ask all the little kids who watch wrestling if they wanted to see Hornswaggle off their television sets, they'd probably balk. Believe it or not, even if every one of the people who said they'd watch once Hornswaggle was off TV or Cena wasn't champ, or my favorite: CM Punk should be a heel... the ratings would spike. They're in it for ratings. They don't have the numbers that are expected of them and they want to cater to people who watch WWE, as well as other people who don't so they can get more viewers and PPV buys. If it's straight 3 hour marathon matches that you want, then ROH is there for you buddy. If you think WWE will even consider going off on a firing spree of people the IWC didn't like, then you'd be thinking that having only CM Punk and Londrick on the roster would be a good idea. Done and done.
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metylerca
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Post by metylerca on Nov 30, 2007 16:28:26 GMT -5
I always love commenting these posts; ....if the IWC ran wrestling, there'd be 50 minute matches with 100lb guys on every week, and they'd all be heels. geesh. But Finlay really does play heel better, considering he's been one for as long as I remember (going back to Monday Night Wars WCW). And there's some sort of problem with trying something new? 95% of the current audience doesn't know Finlay existed before 2006, so why just have him play the badass when he has now been getting cheers from fans? The idea is to push the ones who get cheered as faces, the one's booed as heels, and the ones with mixed reactions as 'controversial'. If they don't get any reaction, they send them to Smackdown, so they can pipe in the reaction. Unless of course you think Lashley was really that over on SD....
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Post by TRUTH TELLER on Nov 30, 2007 17:05:58 GMT -5
Why should I have to turn off my TV? How about these corporations like the WWE start ENTERTAINING loyal fans? What's actually ridiculous is just accepting what they hand us and not speaking on it. 15 threads on a subject isn't the answer, but people speak on this because we shouldn't have to just give in to what someone believes is entertainment. If it sucks and we are their ratings, they need to change it. That's just it, we're not just their prime audience. If you were to go around and ask all the little kids who watch wrestling if they wanted to see Hornswaggle off their television sets, they'd probably balk. Believe it or not, even if every one of the people who said they'd watch once Hornswaggle was off TV or Cena wasn't champ, or my favorite: CM Punk should be a heel... the ratings would spike. They're in it for ratings. They don't have the numbers that are expected of them and they want to cater to people who watch WWE, as well as other people who don't so they can get more viewers and PPV buys. If it's straight 3 hour marathon matches that you want, then ROH is there for you buddy. If you think WWE will even consider going off on a firing spree of people the IWC didn't like, then you'd be thinking that having only CM Punk and Londrick on the roster would be a good idea. Done and done. I agree with you in theory, but there's no proof that Hornswaggle is ratings. As a matter of fact, there's much more data out there to suggest otherwise. If people want to defend the humor and harmlessness of it, that's fine. But there's really no argument to suggest the angle is a cash boon or drawing viewers, because, well, Neielsen's suggest otherwise. I have no issue with it, other than the fact that's it's not done that well. The whole thing on Monday was filmed horribly. I think I would have laughed had Hornswaggle disappeared into an actual hole. But it just looked chinsy and hokey to pull the camera away. Anyway, the person who said that we as adults don't really have a concept of what kids actually want is spot on. We're all speaking for all kids here blindly because we think since they're young and naive they should LOVE something like this. I have no idea if all kids love him or if they don't. When I was a kid, some kids loved Care Bears, while I always loved more violent toys like GI Joe and He-Man, and hated anything "wholesome" because it felt sucky to me, and I wanted to come across older. It's the same today with my Nephews. I know that my nephews think Hornswaggle is Okay, and only okay. The humor for them has only came from the fact that he's tiny and attacks people, not because of cartoony hijinks. They thought the hole was stupid, yet, thought Hornswaggle biting people is hilarious. They much prefer the actual wrestlers though. They love guys like Rey Mysterio and Batista especially. I asked them why that was, and they said because they look like super heroes. I can see that. I felt the same way about Warrior and Hogan when I was a kid.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 30, 2007 17:13:16 GMT -5
Ok.
I'm at the point to where I don't think a midget in a green suit is worth this level of serious discussion.
It can't be anyway you slice it.
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Post by normcoleman on Nov 30, 2007 18:44:23 GMT -5
any chance we might see Hornswaggle: World Champion?
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Post by Real Folk Bruce on Dec 1, 2007 2:16:07 GMT -5
I may be a life-long minis fan and a fan of the occasional comedy character(Rikishi,Ron Simmons,etc.)but even I know when a character or a gag is being overplayed.
He was funny when he was interfering in Finleys matches or when he's busy harassing Micheal Cole,but when they show him week after week he begins to lose his charm. Remember,less is more.
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Dec 1, 2007 9:38:11 GMT -5
Face push for Finlay is a weird idea, when he plays heel so much better. I always love commenting these posts; ....if the IWC ran wrestling, there'd be 50 minute matches with 100lb guys on every week, and they'd all be heels. geesh. And somehow there would still be heel turns and no backstage segments.
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AriadosMan
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Post by AriadosMan on Dec 1, 2007 9:55:06 GMT -5
Question: if the ratings haven't actually increased with the increased amount of airtime for Hornswoggle, why does everybody assume all those "little kids who love the WWE" are tuning in to see him? I have yet to see legions of people wearing Hornswoggle T-shirts like they were wearing Rock and Austin T-shirts during the Attitude era.
And before someone makes this into yet another "OMFG SHUT UP YOU ELITIST" argument, I distinctly remember many of those T-shirts were worn by...little kids. Kids like things that they think are "adult", not things they think are "kiddy".
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doytch
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Post by doytch on Dec 1, 2007 10:27:28 GMT -5
reason hornswogle is on tv is the easiest way to say it is that he has to win matches still. he just beat carlos carlito. you people are all like jericho who is also small and has same haircut that woman at schools library has and she is of a woman!!!!! hornswogle might be a good wrestle and you dont gave him chance.
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