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Post by MichaelMartini on May 13, 2006 4:51:42 GMT -5
HBK isn't holding anyone down, but booking is not using him to put anyone over. After Shawn's brief heel run with Hogan he shoud've fueded with Cena (and with his comments after Mania, it sounds like that's what he wanted to do) and he would've done a great job of putting him over. So much so that Cena proably wouldn't be getting booed right now.
As for the initial comments- BS I say. Mentioning Ric Flair? No main eventer has put over more guys than the Nature Boy. That guy has been making superstars for 20+ years.
Austin never had the chance to put over new guys. He put over Rock, HHH, Angle, Jericho and was willing to elevate Eddie, Brock, Benoit, etc but due to injury/personal problems/bad booking never had the chance.
They used HBK the right way when he put over Edge but ever since that fued have been squandering him in stupid storylines.
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Post by tardis99 on May 13, 2006 5:00:49 GMT -5
Austin never had the chance to put over new guys. He put over Rock, HHH, Angle, Jericho and was willing to elevate Eddie, Brock, Benoit, etc but due to injury/personal problems/bad booking never had the chance. It was Austin himself who vetoed any feud with Eddie who was rehired specifically to feud with Austin.
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Post by MichaelMartini on May 13, 2006 5:15:59 GMT -5
Austin never had the chance to put over new guys. He put over Rock, HHH, Angle, Jericho and was willing to elevate Eddie, Brock, Benoit, etc but due to injury/personal problems/bad booking never had the chance. It was Austin himself who vetoed any feud with Eddie who was rehired specifically to feud with Austin. I never heard that. I remember watching raw when they were starting the fued. Asutin was looking for Eddie in some cantina or vice versa but they cut it short cause Austin was having some real life issues with Debra and he dissappeared from TV.
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Post by westendriot on May 13, 2006 5:22:33 GMT -5
I pass no judgment on any superstars, not even Hogan. It may be well known that Hogan had a lot of influence backstage, but that's nothing to do with me.
HHH may hold people back, he may not, I don't care, I enjoy his matches and his promos and that's all that matters. HBK may hold people back, he may not want to do the job, but he's damn entertaining and I don't care what happens backstage.
I've heard, and read a lot of reports about a lot of wrestlers who are assholes either backstage or to fans and such, even a few recent reports about Bobby Lashley, Teddy Long and John Cena but I don't care. I've said it all before, but just once more, these are only rumours and we're only speculating. Everyone could be wrong about HBK, everyone could be right so arguements like this are redundant.
Oh, and for the record, HBK rules.
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Post by tardis99 on May 13, 2006 6:49:52 GMT -5
It was Austin himself who vetoed any feud with Eddie who was rehired specifically to feud with Austin. I never heard that. I remember watching raw when they were starting the fued. Asutin was looking for Eddie in some cantina or vice versa but they cut it short cause Austin was having some real life issues with Debra and he dissappeared from TV. Those real life issues probably included hitting his wife and he disapeared from the TV screen because he didnt want to do the feud with Eddie. Wrestlers, including Austin have stayed working through "hard times". If Steve was in a programe with the WWE champion or in the main event slot he wouldn't have gone. As it was he was being used in the midcard against a midcarder so he walked. Austin even says himself now that he was an ass back then because of 'personal issues' though I wonder just how much of his career woes of recent years he blames on his personal problems as a quick excuse. Not forgetting that his personal problems were all self induced
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on May 13, 2006 8:55:37 GMT -5
But the problem is that you cannot decree yourself a reformed character when as soon as you're put back into the same situation you revert straight back to your old self. HBK was perfectly happy and kind and christian and 'reformed' when everything was going great and he was happily plodding along the mid-card and main eventing with his great mate HHH but as soon as it came down to it he proved that he's still got the claws backstage. And all play to him, I've got no problem with him sticking up for himself backstage but there is a difference between standing up for yourself backstage and being petulent and spoiled and spilling that problem onto the TV show and in public. I've got no concerns that whilst HBK is being built as a face in a good and positive light that he'll have no problems with anyone. As soon as he's asked to do something that he doesn't want to do again I suspect we'll see a lot more of the 'old' Shawn Michaels rearing his head. Has he really reverted, though? I mean, sure, he buried Hogan after their match. But... it was Hogan, not some weak up-and-comer looking for a break to show his future potential. As I recall, after the Hogan match and Michaels' next-night promo, Michaels was loudly criticized and a lot of people said, "See, he's the same old self-promoter." But, picking on a guy like Hogan, a guy who's legacy is simply not going to be tarnished by a few hard words, is totally different than picking on somebody who is truly vulnerable. Aside from the Hogan incident, is there really anything Michaels has done, since his comeback, that has hurt another performer (particularly another vulnerable performer)? You're right, Hogan's legacy wouldn't be tarnished by someone who's bitter about doing the job for him, hell if jobbing to Lesnar clean on TV didn't do it, then HBK going on a temper tantrum mid-ring sure as hell won't. Still doesn't make it right, and if it happened to him, he'd be screaming bloody murder.
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Post by stetheman on May 13, 2006 9:12:49 GMT -5
HBK is one of the best wrestlers in the world, so I say keep him on the top untill he is about to retire.
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Post by hbk619 - QUACK! on May 13, 2006 10:01:42 GMT -5
I pass no judgment on any superstars, not even Hogan. It may be well known that Hogan had a lot of influence backstage, but that's nothing to do with me. HHH may hold people back, he may not, I don't care, I enjoy his matches and his promos and that's all that matters. HBK may hold people back, he may not want to do the job, but he's damn entertaining and I don't care what happens backstage. I've heard, and read a lot of reports about a lot of wrestlers who are rear canals either backstage or to fans and such, even a few recent reports about Bobby Lashley, Teddy Long and John Cena but I don't care. I've said it all before, but just once more, these are only rumours and we're only speculating. Everyone could be wrong about HBK, everyone could be right so arguements like this are redundant. Oh, and for the record, HBK rules. thankyou. Sure hbk may be an arse as a person. But people should watch wwe for the character hbk. he should be entertaining. and if he is. why does it matter who he is putting over?
I dont believe anyone can change. Of course Michaels has an arrogant streak. So does everyone. (me included). He has his reasons. But why should we care what he's like off screen as Shawn Hickenbottom?
Lita put it best "Let me entertain you mondays 9-11. Let me do what i want in my time" - or something like that
And i have no idea whether the original post is right or not
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Post by royboy8 on May 13, 2006 10:14:10 GMT -5
I guess people's issues with the guy stem from who he used to be, not what he is now. I consider post-2002 HBK a completely different guy. But for the sake of argument, and uh oh, I'm gonna talk about Bret, here's my two cents on a few things: Hart- was the wwf champ when he was 40 and refused to pass the torch to HBK, Montreal happened and he left. True, but Bret already passed the torch to him in 1996, and was then told by HBK immediately to get the f*** out of his ring. HBK then refused to return a job to Bret at WM 13 and faked an injury. He also breached his own contract in the summer to try and go to WCW because he basically didn't want to job to Bret again. Oh, and he also informed everyone around the time of Montreal that his days of doing jobs were over. So, although, one could argue Bret should have dropped the belt, HBK didn't exactly make it easy. But that's the past...(thank God He shouldn't have had to job. There was zero payoff (They had no intention of having Jim Ross return) and having someone the magnitude of Austin job to a guy (Coach) who even if he did win would not further any angles, was stupid beyond all belief. Besides, one could argue that this one booking super-blunder cost them Austin vs. Hogan for Wrestlemania. Sorry about the Bret stuff, but in my opinion HBK's character at the time merited it being a tough decision. I have no doubts that had it been anyone but Shawn that night, we'd just remember Survivor Series 97 as that ppv where we couldn't understand a damn word the announcer was saying ;D But I do agree with you. Water under the bridge. Today's HBK rules. It's only a shame he wasn't always like this. If he was, ppl might speak of his name with the same respect and reverence as they do Ric Flair. I totally agree with this.
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Post by royboy8 on May 13, 2006 10:16:18 GMT -5
HBK isn't holding anyone down, but booking is not using him to put anyone over. After Shawn's brief heel run with Hogan he shoud've fueded with Cena (and with his comments after Mania, it sounds like that's what he wanted to do) and he would've done a great job of putting him over. So much so that Cena proably wouldn't be getting booed right now. As for the initial comments- BS I say. Mentioning Ric Flair? No main eventer has put over more guys than the Nature Boy. That guy has been making superstars for 20+ years. Austin never had the chance to put over new guys. He put over Rock, HHH, Angle, Jericho and was willing to elevate Eddie, Brock, Benoit, etc but due to injury/personal problems/bad booking never had the chance. They used HBK the right way when he put over Edge but ever since that fued have been squandering him in stupid storylines. I'm not saying that Flair hasnt been great for the buisness and hasnt put everyone that needed to be over. But I did put him on this list because when he was 40 he was the top person in his company, and how many title runs has he had since then? When I compare older wrestlers for a historical standpoint, HBK and Flair are very close together because of how good they are for the buisness.
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Post by royboy8 on May 13, 2006 10:17:28 GMT -5
Austin never had the chance to put over new guys. He put over Rock, HHH, Angle, Jericho and was willing to elevate Eddie, Brock, Benoit, etc but due to injury/personal problems/bad booking never had the chance. It was Austin himself who vetoed any feud with Eddie who was rehired specifically to feud with Austin. And yes, since Austin became big, he has been as bad for the buisness as he has been good. He doesnt even ever let people get the best of him on promos, let alone in ring matches.
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Post by T.J. "the Crippler" Stevens on May 13, 2006 10:29:47 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels still pulls out little things that some people may not totally notice or point out, but they still do damage to other wrestlers one way or another. Wrestlemania 20 for instance. Why was he in the Main Event? Why was he not helping out lower on the card? After all, he's the one who argued to keep Mick Foley out of the Wrestlemania 15 Main Event because "the Main Event should always be a one on one match." Suddenly it was OK when he wanted to be in it with his buddy, Paul.
And then there was this years Wrestlemania. As soon as he pulled out the giant ladder I said, "He's up to his old tricks again." Did you notice how the ladder was big enough so that he looked that much better than every single one of the participants in the Money in the Bank match? He just couldn't let any of them outshine him. With one move he very slyly buried 6 guys on the undercard. If you think he didn't realize that, you're nuts. After 20 years in this business, he knew exactly what he was doing.
I could go on and on. Shawn Michaels hasn't changed, he's just gotten smarter about the way he goes about being a prick.
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on May 13, 2006 10:41:53 GMT -5
I do agree that you shouldn't do anything twice on one card, such as bringing out another ladder when earlier on in the night, it was done, and it was a bigger ladder. Not really that noticeable but little things like that are a bit annoying.
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Post by T.J. "the Crippler" Stevens on May 13, 2006 10:52:56 GMT -5
Also, about the cry fest after the Hogan match. It didn't hurt Hogan any but that's not the point. You never see any other wrestlers coming out and doing that kind of stuff after they are forced to job. Why does Shawn get to do it? It's just plain unprofessional and sets a terrible example for everyone else. I'm sure Jericho would've loved to shoot on Triple H and bury him after Wrestlemania 18. But did he do it? No. He's obviously a professional. And what do you think would've happened to him had he done so?
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on May 13, 2006 10:56:24 GMT -5
Also, about the cry fest after the Hogan match. It didn't hurt Hogan any but that's not the point. You never see any other wrestlers coming out and doing that kind of stuff after they are forced to job. Why does Shawn get to do it? It's just plain unprofessional and sets a terrible example for everyone else. I'm sure Jericho would've loved to shoot on Triple H and bury him after Wrestlemania 18. But did he do it? No. He's obviously a professional. And what do you think would've happened to him had he done so? That's easy, he would've been feuding with the dead dog he had to walk during his reign as champion for at least 2 years. It's ok for HBK to do that, but heaven forbid if it's someone else, they should be fired.
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Post by tardis99 on May 13, 2006 10:57:10 GMT -5
I don't know why Vince still holds a torch for HBK to be honest. If he could have he would have happily screwed him over and jumped to WCW and he probably would have had no qualms about taking the belt with him either
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,515
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Post by Ben Wyatt on May 13, 2006 11:17:24 GMT -5
I don't know why Vince still holds a torch for HBK to be honest. If he could have he would have happily screwed him over and jumped to WCW and he probably would have had no qualms about taking the belt with him either Oh of course, because Im sure he told you this himself. Not everyone would screw over Vince if given the chance. As much as a jerk as he might have been, its my opinion he would have been loyal enough to stay.
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Post by tardis99 on May 13, 2006 11:25:51 GMT -5
I don't know why Vince still holds a torch for HBK to be honest. If he could have he would have happily screwed him over and jumped to WCW and he probably would have had no qualms about taking the belt with him either Oh of course, because Im sure he told you this himself. Not everyone would screw over Vince if given the chance. As much as a jerk as he might have been, its my opinion he would have been loyal enough to stay. It's very well reported HBK was in 1996 desperately trying to get out of his contract.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,515
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Post by Ben Wyatt on May 13, 2006 11:31:48 GMT -5
Oh of course, because Im sure he told you this himself. Not everyone would screw over Vince if given the chance. As much as a jerk as he might have been, its my opinion he would have been loyal enough to stay. It's very well reported HBK was in 1996 desperately trying to get out of his contract. I dont recall that. (Not calling you a liar, just dont remember that happening.)
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Post by tardis99 on May 13, 2006 11:36:25 GMT -5
HBK wanted to join his good friend Kevin Nash who'd just got a huge payday by going to Atlana. When Vince refused to break his contract he began acting like a complete ass because he knew he had Vince over a barrell. If he broke the contract and allowed him to leave he had virtually no main event talent left so he could do virtually what he wanted, and he did up until Austin came along when he suddenly realised his stock was falling so he jumped out of it. (oh and that "back injury" too ) Not that I think it;s a negative he wanted to jump to WCW but he didnt exactly try to make Vince's life easy when he had (or decided) to stay
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