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Post by tardis99 on May 14, 2006 18:08:05 GMT -5
But there was a reason for creative to do that. They didn't just pluck Michaels out of thin air. Michael was being groomed to recieve the next big push as he already was one of the most popular superstars in the company through his heel turn in early 1992.
Granted very few guys get that anymore but the industry has changed. Things do tend to happen more organically these days. Nobody again is going to get such a push as there simply isnt enough time as there was 10 years ago. But since then in the days of wham-bam-thank-you-mam pushes some people have got over and very successfully. Benoit has had a lot more in terms of help from booking than a lot of guys who have gotten over in recent years.
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Post by tardis99 on May 14, 2006 18:15:12 GMT -5
But the wider point is that creative has to have something to work with. They need to have some quirk in personality or some gimmick to be able to use as a vehicle to push a guy. You give Benoit a gimmick you take away from who he is, but don't give him a gimmick and....who the hell is he?
Eddie is an example of what Benoit should aspire to. Him and Curt Henning are two perfect exxamples. They could both work in the ring but they also had a personality. They could talk, cut promos, get themselves over. They could get the audience to love them or hate them. I don't think anyone (using the term advisedly) has ever felt passionately one way or the other about Benoit.
Sure HBK was a jerk but creative didn't give him the gimmick and did all the work. It was Shawn Michaels who was going out there each week selling it and making it work.
...I started off being anti-HBK now I'm defending him....oy!!!
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Post by royboy8 on May 14, 2006 23:02:57 GMT -5
I do not agree with the people that think Benoit was sabotaged as champ by creative. It's the responsibility of the Wrestler to get himself over, not just winning the title. Wrestlers such as Eddie became more over after becoming champ and they didnt have the title for a long time. To my knowledge, Eddie only had 1 win on a ppv as champ, same as Benoit.
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Hiroshi Hase
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on May 14, 2006 23:09:36 GMT -5
Anyone got a link to that promo?
I cant remember it
And amazing how people (bar one poster) only has ONE example from 4 years of comeback of him being an ass Well, I guess if they told HBK that Kurt was going over at Mania 21 and that there would be no rematch, that HBK would be probably be pissed and Angle would probably be booked to cheat. Because I'm not sure that HBK would've done the job clean if he knew there would be no rematch.
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Post by tardis99 on May 14, 2006 23:11:40 GMT -5
Thats the problem with wrestling today. Rematches. Why does there have to be seemingly 138 rematches for everything?
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Post by MichaelMartini on May 14, 2006 23:45:13 GMT -5
I really don't want to not like a guy named Tardis (huge Dr. Who fan here) but to say no one cares passionately about Benoit is pushing it. Benoit has been one of my favorites ever since the Horseman days. He has a gimmick. He's the Crippler. He's master technician. He doesn't spew a million catchphrases with every promo but boy can he tell a story in the ring.
Benoit was over huge after his five star matches with guys like Jericho and the Rock and his fued with Angle will go down as one of the all time greats. Goldberg was crap in the ring and crap on the mic but WCW handed him superstardom on a platter. I like Batista well enough but his title reign wasn't setting the world on fire. And he had HHH carefully plotted year long Evolution angle to get him over. And he's injury prone. All Benoit had was a rumble win - no storyline. You need people like Benoit, who are great in the ring to be champs. Guys that are draws on their own don't need belts. Guys like Boogeyman don't need to be champs to generate money.
Benoit always gets huge pops, wether he's facing a Kurt or an Orlando. No one has been neglected more than Benoit, by WCW and WWE. The never wanted him champ but the fans demanded it.
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Post by TRUTH TELLER on May 15, 2006 4:28:46 GMT -5
Eddie only had 1 win on a ppv as champ, same as Benoit. Actually, Benoit had three wins. He won the threeway rematch at Backlash, pinned Kane at Bad Blood and pinned Triple H at Vengeance before finally losing to Orton at Summer Slam. As for all the talk of whether Benoit deserved to be champion or was not a draw; well, I think he deserved to be champion if only based on his great wrestling. Kind of like a reward for a lifetime of great work. NOW, on the other hand, he was never intended (at least in my opinion) to be "the" top guy and a top draw. He was a transitional champion who got a respect reign. (see Ricky Steamboat in the NWA/WCW). I personally can live with how he was booked. He dominated HHH thoroughly in his feud, got to make every member of Evolution tap out convincingly on episodes of RAW; and won the Royal Rumble in a spectacular fashion. WWE threw us a bone. And I enjoyed it while it lasted. Better to be a former champion than a never was.
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Post by Magneto on May 15, 2006 14:36:54 GMT -5
Vince has to believe and creative has to be that, creative. Like I said, unless Vince sees dollar signs when he looks at you, he is not going to let those that he likes (or those that suck up to him as some would put it) look bad or lose. Shawn and Shelton had an incredible match where both looked amazing but, Vince and creative just don't see Shelton as World Champ material yet, due to their own stupidity. Simply put, if Vince doesn't think you can sell millions in merchandise than Vince doesn't care about you. No I think Vince just accepts that some people can never be main eventers. Doesn't mean he doesn't care. I really think peoples impression of Vince is that he's like his on-screen personality. He doesn't just turn up midway through a TV show. He more likely knows and is the driving force behind the vast majority of stuff that everyone on the shows do. But some would have it so everyone if they get pops would automatically pushed to the main event. Shelton isn't in the main event because he isn't good enough. Benoit could put on good matches but he SUCKED as champion. Some people just arent meant to main event. Being in the midcard isn't anything to be ahsamed of. Just because someone is a successful midcarder doesn't mean creative or Vince doesn't care about them because if nobody cared about Shelton he wouldnt be on TV each week. It just means that they're better suited to the undercard and on Shelton I agree with that No. John Cena is NOT good enough to be WWE Champion. He's a embarassment to the craft of wrestling and can't do a regular television match without missing clothelines. Shelton Benjamin? The most versatile wrestler on Raw today. Where Shawn Michaels and Cena have Superman matches and HHH has EXTREMELY borefests disguised as "wrestling matches", Benjamin works a different match with every name he gets in the ring with everyweek. From RVD to Chris Masters to outworking Shawn Michaels COMPLETELY in late Jan in their rematch. He was held back last year for garbage talent like Masters and now that he's even slightly pushed, Benjamin is putting on the best Raw match EVERY single week while the maineventers drag on in their endless complacency of formula matches and repetition.
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Post by Magneto on May 15, 2006 14:41:35 GMT -5
How tragic to hear. Oh well...you can't expect every so called maineventer to be like the Rock and make stars for the pure hell of making things more watchable and better. That's just asking too much these days. No wonder I have no interest in worthless Micahaels/Vince or Michaels/Spirit Squad fueds. The Rock only made stars before he went off to make movies. Oh, and he completely outshined Goldberg upon his debut in WWE. HAHAHA! That's what he's SUPPOSED to do. When you are the top star and are on the way out, you make lesser stars look legit and try to carry on the hard work and success you started them off of. He put over Chris Jericho long before going to Hollywood but HHH ruined that. He put over Hurricane and had that kid VERY over as face but HHH ruined that as well. He put over Goldberg but fans do not respect Goldberg enough for that to have worked. So they cheered the ever entertaining Hollywood Rock over him. No big deal. Doesn't change that the Rock has put over guys who probably shouldn't be doing matches with him but he did it anyway and Shawn is wrestling everyweek and can't lose to Carlito or Benjamin? WTF kind of SENSE does that make, Shawn Michaels' fan? You nor anyone else have a satisfactory answer to that question and that makes checkmate.
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Post by Bobafett on May 15, 2006 14:46:19 GMT -5
sorry i just don't like him..its a fact nothing you camn say can change it..i'm not bitter..he just ain't a fav..
thats life
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Post by Bobafett on May 15, 2006 14:49:51 GMT -5
It's not about being booed. It's tiresome really just how many times smarks-favourites have been made World Champion, done nothing with it and all the old excuses come out of the woodwork. It's always creative or the opponents or the city or the air or he had the wrong shoes...it's always something. Guys draw on their own if they are good enough. Batista can draw on his own, why couldn't Benoit? Some people just aren't made to be champions. its not excuses..its called bad booking Benoit is a guy I like but if I thought he was given a proper chance with the belt and then sucked..i would not blindly defend him but his run was overshadowed by HHH vs HBK round 1000 and then a really (literaly) retarded storyline
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Post by Magneto on May 15, 2006 14:51:45 GMT -5
Overshadowed by not just HHH vs Shawn's JOKE of a HIAC match at Bad Blood but even booked second to HHH vs Eugene at Summerslam '04. What a joke.
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Post by The Jeebus on May 16, 2006 9:17:15 GMT -5
The Rock only made stars before he went off to make movies. Oh, and he completely outshined Goldberg upon his debut in WWE. HAHAHA! That's what he's SUPPOSED to do. When you are the top star and are on the way out, you make lesser stars look legit and try to carry on the hard work and success you started them off of. He put over Chris Jericho long before going to Hollywood Magneto, you just inadvertently just agreed with what I had said. The Rock, after putting Jericho over one last time at the Rumble, leaves straight after 'Mania, comes back for about a month and wins the Undisputed Championship by pinning Kurt (and buried him, OMG!!!!1111Meltzer) and loses it to Lesnar before leaving for another half year. Not exactly on Foley-levels of getting guys over, is he? And he was on his way out, too. Before he was all set to leave, Rock never got anyone over in any special way. He wrestled upcoming stars, but that's as far as his effort went. The rest of your argument is pretty much moot. I mean, "fans do not respect Goldberg enough"? I suppose your television set was on mute at the time of his debut and other appearances leading into his match with Rock. As for Hurricane, again, he put him over before he beat Steve Austin and left. The Rock wrestled most weeks in 2000 and 2001 and couldn't lose to Rob Van Dam or Booker T. What the f*** kind of sense does that make, Fan Of Rock? I'll tell you, Brains: It's logic to NOT job out one of your top main eventers to midcard guys who aren't being pushed. Shawn Michaels wrestled one helluva match with Shelton back in 2005, but didn't job to him. I'm sure you were outraged at the sight of it! You'd present a good argument if you had bothered to properly read two sentences' worth of an argument and presented your arguments without any clear signs of bias. Guess which two of those you don't do? It makes you look like Wade Keller on some sort of anti-valium drug.
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Ben Wyatt
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Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on May 16, 2006 9:34:21 GMT -5
Overshadowed by not just HHH vs Shawn's JOKE of a HIAC match at Bad Blood but even booked second to HHH vs Eugene at Summerslam '04. What a joke. Joke of a HIAC match? You're kidding, right? I realize you would rather gouge out your own eyes with a fishing hook than EVER give Michaels or HHH credit when they deserve it, but please try and at least show some sign of being unbiased sometime. Benoit was overshadowed by a great main event (yes, it sucks for benoit, but its the truth) The Eugene thing you have a point
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Post by Bobafett on May 16, 2006 13:57:45 GMT -5
Overshadowed by not just HHH vs Shawn's JOKE of a HIAC match at Bad Blood but even booked second to HHH vs Eugene at Summerslam '04. What a joke. Joke of a HIAC match? You're kidding, right? I realize you would rather gouge out your own eyes with a fishing hook than EVER give Michaels or HHH credit when they deserve it, but please try and at least show some sign of being unbiased sometime. Benoit was overshadowed by a great main event (yes, it sucks for benoit, but its the truth) The Eugene thing you have a point Benoit was overshadowed by the main event..back up there why wasn't Benoit..who at the time was the champion ..IN the main event? oh sure the match was part of the HBK vs HHH feud..but once again the world champion Chris Benoit played second fiddle to a feud that had been gong on for at least 2 years? , hell when Benoit won at Wrestlemania it seemed more about the HHH vs HBK fued (thats why HBK signed up to it..to have a go at HHH)
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Post by royboy8 on May 16, 2006 14:00:50 GMT -5
HBK was added because of the Draw at the Royal Rumble. Benoit was given the most buildup going into the Wrestlemania main event over the prior two months... music videos about him, an undefeated streak etc.... Benoit was properly built up going into the match, he was given every bit as much of a push(more actually) then HHH and HBK
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Post by Magneto on May 16, 2006 19:10:18 GMT -5
Magneto, you just inadvertently just agreed with what I had said. The Rock, after putting Jericho over one last time at the Rumble, leaves straight after 'Mania, comes back for about a month and wins the Undisputed Championship by pinning Kurt (and buried him, OMG!!!!1111Meltzer) and loses it to Lesnar before leaving for another half year. Not exactly on Foley-levels of getting guys over, is he? And he was on his way out, too. Before he was all set to leave, Rock never got anyone over in any special way. He wrestled upcoming stars, but that's as far as his effort went. The rest of your argument is pretty much moot. I mean, "fans do not respect Goldberg enough"? I suppose your television set was on mute at the time of his debut and other appearances leading into his match with Rock. As for Hurricane, again, he put him over before he beat Steve Austin and left. The Rock wrestled most weeks in 2000 and 2001 and couldn't lose to Rob Van Dam or Booker T. What the f*** kind of sense does that make, Fan Of Rock? I'll tell you, Brains: It's logic to NOT job out one of your top main eventers to midcard guys who aren't being pushed. Shawn Michaels wrestled one helluva match with Shelton back in 2005, but didn't job to him. I'm sure you were outraged at the sight of it! You'd present a good argument if you had bothered to properly read two sentences' worth of an argument and presented your arguments without any clear signs of bias. Guess which two of those you don't do? It makes you look like Wade Keller on some sort of anti-valium drug. He won the title from the Undertaker because Austin or HHH didn't want to face Lesnar in the main event at Summereslam '02. But I guess that news to you. And Jericho was very over as Undisputed Champ before HHH buried and that 's all because of the Rock fueding with the boy from October until Royal Rumble. Then HHH came in, squashed Jericho, and Jericho never got a title again. Goldberg got cheered during his first appearance but after that? Please. The Rock outpopped EVERYONE on Raw every single week and got a standing ovation in Goldberg's so called hometown in Atlanta at the Rock Concert II even as he bashed their town. The Rock beat Goldberg down with the steel chair after setting the idiot up for the second time that night and as he gives him the last chair shot, he looks to the left, dusts his shoulder off, and gets "Rocky" chants over the fallen Goldberg. It just got worse at Backlash '03 as the fans completely turned on Goldberg against the Rock. The Rock lost to RVD in a Hardcore Title match in Sept 2001 and lost to him again in a tag title match. WTF are you talking about, kid? And you still have no answer to why Michaels never puts anyone over. Especially the best worker on Raw today in Shelton Benjamin. You did what you seem best at doing..you dodged me and made up excuses for the inbred Texan you love so much.
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Post by Magneto on May 16, 2006 19:12:55 GMT -5
Overshadowed by not just HHH vs Shawn's JOKE of a HIAC match at Bad Blood but even booked second to HHH vs Eugene at Summerslam '04. What a joke. Joke of a HIAC match? You're kidding, right? I realize you would rather gouge out your own eyes with a fishing hook than EVER give Michaels or HHH credit when they deserve it, but please try and at least show some sign of being unbiased sometime. Benoit was overshadowed by a great main event (yes, it sucks for benoit, but its the truth) The Eugene thing you have a point The f'ing match sucked. I went to sleep on that garbage twice. Hell, I can stay awake during a Tomko match but the Has Been Kid and Cripple H can't do enough work to keep me watching their garbage fest for the 40 minute time slot? Horrible. Hell, watching Steiner vs HHH at NWO '03 is funnier thanks to a crowd giving a damn and chanting "You Screwed Bret", "Boring", and "Steiner SUCKS" all match long. Cripple H vs Hickenbottom was a bust and will ALWAYS be a reject fued compared to Benoit/Angle or Eddie/Rey. Just horrible promos, matches, and work.
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Post by tardis99 on May 16, 2006 19:22:11 GMT -5
Over the past 25 years you could probably easily name 25 better draws than HBK, if not more.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on May 16, 2006 19:42:40 GMT -5
Joke of a HIAC match? You're kidding, right? I realize you would rather gouge out your own eyes with a fishing hook than EVER give Michaels or HHH credit when they deserve it, but please try and at least show some sign of being unbiased sometime. Benoit was overshadowed by a great main event (yes, it sucks for benoit, but its the truth) The Eugene thing you have a point The f'ing match sucked. I went to sleep on that garbage twice. Hell, I can stay awake during a Tomko match but the Has Been Kid and Cripple H can't do enough work to keep me watching their garbage fest for the 40 minute time slot? Horrible. Hell, watching Steiner vs HHH at NWO '03 is funnier thanks to a crowd giving a damn and chanting "You Screwed Bret", "Boring", and "Steiner SUCKS" all match long. Cripple H vs Hickenbottom was a bust and will ALWAYS be a reject fued compared to Benoit/Angle or Eddie/Rey. Just horrible promos, matches, and work. Thats YOUR opinion, but most people liked that match. Just because YOU feel asleep and YOU found it boring doesnt make it true. You may wanna re-watch their matches, because the crowd was red hot for all of them.
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