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Post by tardis99 on May 16, 2006 22:29:30 GMT -5
Shawn needs a gimmick to sell. Be it an iron man match, HIAC, cage match, elimination chamber, ladder match, Austin/Hogan (who are walking gimmicks) never will HBK NEVER sell a normal match. Even the gimmicks he doesn't sell too well.
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Post by Magneto on May 16, 2006 22:32:08 GMT -5
Exactly. His marks think because he gets nostalgia cheers today that it somehow changes the fact that he didn't draw in the past at all. It's funny. Shawn Michaels isn't NOWHERE near as big as the WWE, their commentators, and his IWC fanbase want him to be. Kevin Nash and Scott Hall mean more to wrestling than Shawn Michaels. Hell, Goldberg means more to wrestling than Shawn Michaels.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,515
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Post by Ben Wyatt on May 16, 2006 23:13:47 GMT -5
Exactly. His marks think because he gets nostalgia cheers today that it somehow changes the fact that he didn't draw in the past at all. It's funny. Shawn Michaels isn't NOWHERE near as big as the WWE, their commentators, and his IWC fanbase want him to be. Kevin Nash and Scott Hall mean more to wrestling than Shawn Michaels. Hell, Goldberg means more to wrestling than Shawn Michaels. Yes, goldberg is much more important to wrestling. I can totally see how that makes sense given that he hasnt wrestled since '04. Im sure you'll spout some bias talk about how Goldbergs 3 year career in WCW and his year run in the E outdoes what Michaels has done As for Hall and Nash, that was true for about 2 years (96-98 dring the nWo heyday)
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Post by tardis99 on May 16, 2006 23:27:21 GMT -5
Goldberg's contribution to wrestling far outweighs Shawn Michaels'. You're comparing a man who attracted legions of fans to the industry compared to someone who all the evidence shows had the exact opposite effect.
If an actor makes two films whch combined gross $100,000,000 he has made a more positive contribution than an actor who has made 20 films and total grossed $10,000,000.
Indeed condense all of Shawn Michaels achievements, memorable moments, main event runs, title wins etc into a single year it'd STILL by far and away one of the most unsuccessful years in the industry in a generation
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on May 16, 2006 23:32:13 GMT -5
Exactly. His marks think because he gets nostalgia cheers today that it somehow changes the fact that he didn't draw in the past at all. It's funny. Shawn Michaels isn't NOWHERE near as big as the WWE, their commentators, and his IWC fanbase want him to be. Kevin Nash and Scott Hall mean more to wrestling than Shawn Michaels. Hell, Goldberg means more to wrestling than Shawn Michaels. Yes, goldberg is much more important to wrestling. I can totally see how that makes sense given that he hasnt wrestled since '04. Im sure you'll spout some bias talk about how Goldbergs 3 year career in WCW and his year run in the E outdoes what Michaels has done As for Hall and Nash, that was true for about 2 years (96-98 dring the nWo heyday) Well I wouldn't say that Goldberg's WWE reign out did what HBK did, but his WCW reign sure did as he did sure get a lot of fans for the short time he's been in wrestling. And Hall/Nash on top for 2 years is longer than any run of HBK's.
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Post by tardis99 on May 16, 2006 23:34:46 GMT -5
I'd wager money that Hall & Nash earned in one year at WCW more than HBK made for WWF in his whole first initial sings run (92-97)
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Post by Mayonnaise on May 16, 2006 23:36:59 GMT -5
Hogan, Andre, Flair, Sting, Warrior, Piper, Andre, Austin, Rock, Angle, HHH, Batista, Bret, McMahon, Orndorf, Hall, Nash, Goldberg, Savage, Undertaker, Jericho, Foley, Graham, Guerrero, Kamala, Backlund 26 First off, I am a fan of HBK but, I agree that Shawn is not in the top 25 to 30 biggest draws but you listed Andre twice and, Batista is highly debatable. So that puts you at 24. Who is the other 1? I say you could add 'Quake (who drew huge houses with Hogan), Jake Roberts, Bruno Sammartino (time frame maybe off), Ricky Steamboat and, maybe HTM (maybe).
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Post by amsiraK on May 16, 2006 23:38:45 GMT -5
Andre's so big, he needs two mentions, maybe. ;D
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,515
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Post by Ben Wyatt on May 16, 2006 23:41:37 GMT -5
Yes, goldberg is much more important to wrestling. I can totally see how that makes sense given that he hasnt wrestled since '04. Im sure you'll spout some bias talk about how Goldbergs 3 year career in WCW and his year run in the E outdoes what Michaels has done As for Hall and Nash, that was true for about 2 years (96-98 dring the nWo heyday) Well I wouldn't say that Goldberg's WWE reign out did what HBK did, but his WCW reign sure did as he did sure get a lot of fans for the short time he's been in wrestling. And Hall/Nash on top for 2 years is longer than any run of HBK's. Realistically, HBK was on top (from a booking standpoint) from 95 (Winning the Rumble, headlining WM11), until 97/98 when his back shit the bed on him. Thats just about 3 years. You could make a case that once Goldberg lost the WCW title/injured his arm, his impact dropped dramatically. I fully admit he was on FIRE from last 97-end 98
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Post by tardis99 on May 16, 2006 23:47:08 GMT -5
But it's not about time, it's what you do with it. If Austin hadn't came along and HBK's back hadn't given out he could have been losing Vince millions each year for 15 years longer.
Well I haven't included midcarders so that rules out Jake, HTM etc and Sammartino retired exactly 25 years ago. But purely on a title run Vs title run comparison Batista out draws Shawn Michaels. Sure Quake could be up there too. As could Slaughter for that matter.
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Post by The Jeebus on May 17, 2006 4:57:42 GMT -5
Magneto, you just inadvertently just agreed with what I had said. The Rock, after putting Jericho over one last time at the Rumble, leaves straight after 'Mania, comes back for about a month and wins the Undisputed Championship by pinning Kurt (and buried him, OMG!!!!1111Meltzer) and loses it to Lesnar before leaving for another half year. Not exactly on Foley-levels of getting guys over, is he? And he was on his way out, too. Before he was all set to leave, Rock never got anyone over in any special way. He wrestled upcoming stars, but that's as far as his effort went. The rest of your argument is pretty much moot. I mean, "fans do not respect Goldberg enough"? I suppose your television set was on mute at the time of his debut and other appearances leading into his match with Rock. As for Hurricane, again, he put him over before he beat Steve Austin and left. The Rock wrestled most weeks in 2000 and 2001 and couldn't lose to Rob Van Dam or Booker T. What the f*** kind of sense does that make, Fan Of Rock? I'll tell you, Brains: It's logic to NOT job out one of your top main eventers to midcard guys who aren't being pushed. Shawn Michaels wrestled one helluva match with Shelton back in 2005, but didn't job to him. I'm sure you were outraged at the sight of it! You'd present a good argument if you had bothered to properly read two sentences' worth of an argument and presented your arguments without any clear signs of bias. Guess which two of those you don't do? It makes you look like Wade Keller on some sort of anti-valium drug. He won the title from the Undertaker because Austin or HHH didn't want to face Lesnar in the main event at Summereslam '02. But I guess that news to you. And Jericho was very over as Undisputed Champ before HHH buried and that 's all because of the Rock fueding with the boy from October until Royal Rumble. Then HHH came in, squashed Jericho, and Jericho never got a title again. I see, neither Austin or Trips wanted to wrestle Lesnar at SummerSlam. You really DO sound like Wade Keller. Unfortunately, since you're presenting mere rumours as legit arguments or facts, said points are easily contradicted. Austin: Didn't want to job to Lesnar on Raw around June. Either Steve couldn't have been included at SummerSlam at all, or had already lost to him. Further, he didn't wrestle again until the next year at WrestleMania 19 for the last time, which says a lot about his physical condition at the time, meaning he probably wouldn't have been able to even compete at SummerSlam. Triple H: Not wanting to face Lesnar isn't a fact, but logic, as well as other rumours indicate that he would've wrestled Nash at SummerSlam. An nWo/Trips feud was brewing until Nash tore his quad, and Shawn Michaels was able to wrestle again, so the HBK/HHH feud began. And one again, you inadvertently agree with me about Rock getting Jericho over before leaving. I never said he didn't. And yet again, you bring up Triple H and your hatred for him. You're such a mark for Triple H that you bring him up in every point that doesn't even concern him. Except for Backlash, that isn't how I remember it. But look who I'm talking to, the guy who claims that 'nobody wants to see DX reform'. Eh, these are minor points. OK, replace Rob Van Dam with just about every other Alliance member. And don't forget Booker, too. After all, Rob Van Dam actually got a push towards the end of 2001, so I chose the wrong example. My bad on this part. I didn't dodge anything. But before I address that, how come you love confusing 'putting a guy over' with 'jobbing to a guy' so much? One question: What was Shelton's most memorable moment in 2005? There was WrestleMania 21, a couple of matches with Y2J, and the awesome TV match he had with Shawn Michaels. That's it. After the match both men received an ovation for their efforts, even. Shawn may not have jobbed to him, but that goes back to my previous point - "It's logic to NOT job out one of your top main eventers to midcard guys who aren't being pushed. Shawn Michaels wrestled one helluva match with Shelton back in 2005 [hence, he to put him over], but didn't job to him."BTW, Shawn does put people over. In the very same Goldrush Tournament in which he beat Shelton Benjamin, HBK put over and jobbed to Edge. He even jobbed to freaking Daivari in the same year, and jobbing in your language = putting over. Brains, I didn't avoid any of your questions. In fact, you dodged mine and reverted back to your tired old points. Again, read a couple of sentences or two before putting "Rock rulz! HHH suxxorz" in every one of your posts.
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