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Post by joebob27 on Sept 25, 2011 22:56:45 GMT -5
Hogan did what was required of him and did it well. People didn't want to see him do what he did in Japan. He played the face in peril very well
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nate5054
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Post by nate5054 on Sept 26, 2011 0:51:16 GMT -5
So, this match seems to draw a lot of different viewpoints on it. While yes, it probably was unprofessional... it still was funny as hell and made what would be a crappy match at least entertaining, IMO. Absolutely unprofessional, but it gave me one of my favorite youtube videos of all time, so totally worth it.
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Post by Beets by Schrute on Sept 26, 2011 1:05:33 GMT -5
It was hilarious. There is a video on YouTube of it with Benny Hill music that proves it.
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nate5054
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Post by nate5054 on Sept 26, 2011 2:04:17 GMT -5
That was a PPV show from the UK. Davey Boy was originally booked to go over Shawn in the match. Shawn refused to job, so the ending had to be changed. Adding more insult to insult, Davey dedicated the match to his sister who was terminally ill at the time (she died not long after the show). I think it was pretty crappy that Shawn did that to Davey. Isn't that more crappy of Vince?
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Bub (BLM)
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Fed. Up.
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Sept 26, 2011 2:09:43 GMT -5
Michaels did what he had to do in order for that match to be watchable. Yeah, he was being a complete ass, but it entertained a ton of people, so whatever.
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Post by rchi84 on Sept 26, 2011 3:18:59 GMT -5
Sigh!! Everytime I see the whole "anyone would have made it with Vince pushing him" argument, I have to shake my head. Despite all evidence to the contrary, this myth of a "Push" persists.
No matter how hard you push someone, be it someone with teh workratez, or the "look" or the "talk", you cannot predict which wrestler will catch on with the fans.
Vince tried so hard to recreate hulkmania with the Ultimate Warrior, but Warrior couldn't have a long term impact on the business that Hulk has had (no matter what you think, you can't argue that Hulk drew big for an insane amount of time, from the early 80's to 92, and then from 96 to 98). He tried it with Bret, HBK, Nash, Taker (before the Kane feud), but stone cold and rock came out of nowhere and caught on.
Talent will rise to the top. The New age outlaws caught on with the fans, as did DX once Shawn left (something most people tend to forget). Since then, Vince tried to push the reformed NWO, LOD 2000, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, Goldberg, HHH(there, i said it), Cena, Lashley, Batista, JBL, Orton and now Punk.
Out of that whole list, only Cena emerged to keep the business steady, in an overall era of decline.
Thems the facts. Vince can push any guy to the moon(Lashley, Zeke Jackson, Kozlov) but it's the fans who decide who they want to cheer or boo.
back to topic though, I agree with the poster who said that barring a few spots, most of the match went the regular route anyway. So if this was Shawn's way of making Hogan look bad, well, he succeeded with a handful of people. The majority treated it like a regular Hogan match and went along with it.
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Post by azrael502 on Sept 26, 2011 4:33:36 GMT -5
hbk made it a match i enjoyed so what if he went over the top abit it was very funny
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Post by dirtyoldman on Sept 26, 2011 4:40:43 GMT -5
That was a PPV show from the UK. Davey Boy was originally booked to go over Shawn in the match. Shawn refused to job, so the ending had to be changed. Adding more insult to insult, Davey dedicated the match to his sister who was terminally ill at the time (she died not long after the show). I think it was pretty crappy that Shawn did that to Davey. Isn't that more crappy of Vince? For having a reputation of being a hard ass, Vince certainly allowed Shawn and his pals to really push him around.
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Post by Branimal on Sept 26, 2011 9:49:45 GMT -5
It made the match 5 times better than it would have been otherwise. As a fan, that's all I ask. I agree. That being said, I prefer to watch the match with the Benny Hill music.
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Big L
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Post by Big L on Sept 26, 2011 11:41:38 GMT -5
Hilarious, but very unprofessional.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2011 12:35:23 GMT -5
I'm as big of a Hogan fan as anyone, and if you're a heel going against super-face Hogan, you need to sell like you're fighting Superman.
Watch any of Hogan's '80s/early '90s matches, and it doesn't seem that far out of place - especially the ones against Curt Hennig.
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Post by crimsonwolf on Sept 26, 2011 15:50:44 GMT -5
Sigh!! Everytime I see the whole "anyone would have made it with Vince pushing him" argument, I have to shake my head. Despite all evidence to the contrary, this myth of a "Push" persists. No matter how hard you push someone, be it someone with teh workratez, or the "look" or the "talk", you cannot predict which wrestler will catch on with the fans. Vince tried so hard to recreate hulkmania with the Ultimate Warrior, but Warrior couldn't have a long term impact on the business that Hulk has had (no matter what you think, you can't argue that Hulk drew big for an insane amount of time, from the early 80's to 92, and then from 96 to 98). He tried it with Bret, HBK, Nash, Taker (before the Kane feud), but stone cold and rock came out of nowhere and caught on. Talent will rise to the top. The New age outlaws caught on with the fans, as did DX once Shawn left (something most people tend to forget). Since then, Vince tried to push the reformed NWO, LOD 2000, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, Goldberg, HHH(there, i said it), Cena, Lashley, Batista, JBL, Orton and now Punk. Out of that whole list, only Cena emerged to keep the business steady, in an overall era of decline. Thems the facts. Vince can push any guy to the moon(Lashley, Zeke Jackson, Kozlov) but it's the fans who decide who they want to cheer or boo. back to topic though, I agree with the poster who said that barring a few spots, most of the match went the regular route anyway. So if this was Shawn's way of making Hogan look bad, well, he succeeded with a handful of people. The majority treated it like a regular Hogan match and went along with it. Quoting this for the truth. Isn't that more crappy of Vince? For having a reputation of being a hard ass, Vince certainly allowed Shawn and his pals to really push him around. Considering this was a time period where their were other promotions for Main Eventers to jump to if they were unsatisfied, Vince actually did have to give into some demands at times. Guys like Hogan, Nash, Razor Roman, Macho Man, Lex Luger, etc. had already jumped ship to WCW, so Vince really wasn't in the position to play the "My way or the highway" card like he is now. It isn't like it is now where you're only option is TNA (and taking a massive pay cut) or going to Japan.
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Post by Piccolo on Sept 26, 2011 17:46:35 GMT -5
Hey, if you think Shawn did it completely randomly, with absolutely no provocation by Hogan in any way whatsoever, more power to you. All I'm saying is that the story is that Hogan out-politicked Shawn (ie, wanted straight heel vs face story instead of face vs face mutual respect story and skipped out on the second match they were supposed to have) and Shawn got a little of his own back in the match through the overselling. All the other stuff you posted is irrelevant to my post... I wasn't talking about their careers. Just about what was between these two men in this feud. I brought up the other stuff because no one is saying Shawn was unprofessional just because we hate Shawn. I absolutely buy that some people are biased against Shawn because of how he was in the 90s. I'm not saying the hatred is out of the blue. I'm just pointing out that judging this particular situation based on general biases about the wrestler is probably happening with both guys, not just with Hogan. (I'd point out as well that ending your post with a sentiment about how you wish he'd have done this to Taker so Taker would've killed him kind of emphasizes the serious level of animosity being directed at the guy.) Again, not saying that someone randomly started hating him out of the blue. I'm sure there were reasons. But as things are now, if someone hates one of the wrestlers, it's not hard to imagine that the level of outrage is directly proportional to the level of dislike.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2011 18:12:26 GMT -5
I brought up the other stuff because no one is saying Shawn was unprofessional just because we hate Shawn. I absolutely buy that some people are biased against Shawn because of how he was in the 90s. I'm not saying the hatred is out of the blue. I'm just pointing out that judging this particular situation based on general biases about the wrestler is probably happening with both guys, not just with Hogan. (I'd point out as well that ending your post with a sentiment about how you wish he'd have done this to Taker so Taker would've killed him kind of emphasizes the serious level of animosity being directed at the guy.) Again, not saying that someone randomly started hating him out of the blue. I'm sure there were reasons. But as things are now, if someone hates one of the wrestlers, it's not hard to imagine that the level of outrage is directly proportional to the level of dislike. I wish he did it to Taker because if that happened then the perception of the incident amongst posters here would likely be remarkably different (i.e. screw with Hogan and it's funny, screw with someone we like and it is unprofessional). I certainly don't wish death to Shawn; no one should take wrestling that seriously. I don't know the man or ever met him. I was just making light of the Taker fist taping thing from 1998 and that Taker may have gone off on him while Hogan didn't notice/care. If Shawn never had a history of being a dick, then the perception here may be different because it would have been an isolated incident. But considering he has a decade's worth of unprofessional acts, this one was just adding another one onto an already big list. I don't think it is fair to say it is just a hatred for Shawn that causes that opinion. There is a laundry list of acts he has done that may cause some, me included, to question his professionalism, and justifiably so, IMO.
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Post by Piccolo on Sept 26, 2011 18:18:54 GMT -5
I absolutely buy that some people are biased against Shawn because of how he was in the 90s. I'm not saying the hatred is out of the blue. I'm just pointing out that judging this particular situation based on general biases about the wrestler is probably happening with both guys, not just with Hogan. (I'd point out as well that ending your post with a sentiment about how you wish he'd have done this to Taker so Taker would've killed him kind of emphasizes the serious level of animosity being directed at the guy.) Again, not saying that someone randomly started hating him out of the blue. I'm sure there were reasons. But as things are now, if someone hates one of the wrestlers, it's not hard to imagine that the level of outrage is directly proportional to the level of dislike. I wish he did it to Taker because if that happened then the perception of the incident amongst posters here would likely be remarkably different (i.e. screw with Hogan and it's funny, screw with someone we like and it is unprofessional). I certainly don't wish death to Shawn; no one should take wrestling that seriously. I don't know the man or ever met him. I was just making light of the Taker fist taping thing from 1998 and that Taker may have gone off on him while Hogan didn't notice/care. I think the perception would've been remarkably different, but for a different reason; Taker never would've politicked so hard for something his opponent wasn't keen on doing, and he wouldn't have wussed out of the second match he'd agreed to do. So if Shawn had done it to him, it would've been unprovoked, and therefore mean. Since it was done as the result of provocation, it was deserved, and therefore funny. I don't think it is fair to say it is just a hatred for Shawn that causes that opinion. There is a laundry list of acts he has done that may cause some, me included, to question his professionalism, and justifiably so, IMO. I think it's as fair as saying people just find it funny because they hate Hogan. (Ie, it may not apply to everyone, but it certainly might apply to some.) Just because there are past deeds that fueled the hatred, that doesn't mean the hatred doesn't still cause someone to apply the most negative assumptions possible, with the highest degree of outrage that one can muster, to his behavior. Personally, I suspect that people generally find it funny because they realize that neither guy is an angel and it made the match more entertaining, and that people generally don't find it funny because they prefer their wrestling to be done in a more straight-laced fashion. The haters, so to speak, are probably in the minority.
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nate5054
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Post by nate5054 on Sept 26, 2011 18:30:50 GMT -5
Considering this was a time period where their were other promotions for Main Eventers to jump to if they were unsatisfied, Vince actually did have to give into some demands at times. Guys like Hogan, Nash, Razor Roman, Macho Man, Lex Luger, etc. had already jumped ship to WCW, so Vince really wasn't in the position to play the "My way or the highway" card like he is now. It isn't like it is now where you're only option is TNA (and taking a massive pay cut) or going to Japan. Actually that's a great point and one I forgot about. Yeah, if that was the potential end game for Michaels then he is the main prick there.
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Post by wildojinx on Sept 27, 2011 16:50:51 GMT -5
I'm as big of a Hogan fan as anyone, and if you're a heel going against super-face Hogan, you need to sell like you're fighting Superman. Watch any of Hogan's '80s/early '90s matches, and it doesn't seem that far out of place - especially the ones against Curt Hennig. Good point. I mean, if he just sold in a generic way, the match would have bored even the most hardcore hogan fan.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2011 17:05:09 GMT -5
Apparently, the show was supposed to end with him and Cena shaking hands, but he turned it down and stormed off because Cena wasn't selling a leg injury. In fairness, it looked ridiculous that HBK spent the whole match working the leg and Cena just forgets halfway through the match, forcing JR to cover for it by BSing about Cena fighting through the pain. True, though getting mad about it could've waited until they got in the back. Plus not having the handshake kind of ruined the next night's opening twist of sorts, when people were supposed to be surprised (though it was obviously going to happen) when Michaels kicked Cena out of the ring in that tag team battle royal. Speaking of, if they were going to do that, why in the holy hell did they have them win one such battle royal then do a second one? Fun fact though, a team in one of those battle royals was The Miz and Johnny Nitro.
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