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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 27, 2012 12:10:25 GMT -5
What does "going up with respect" have to do with the issue at hand, since we're not talking about sleazy pickup artist situations? A man can approach a woman completely respectfully and forthright and still find himself rejected before long. That's the woman's prerogative in that situation. The complaints about "friend zoning" are not a matter of you being HONEST but just getting rejected, it starts with a guy lying through his ass about his intentions then getting all bitter AT THE WOMAN for daring to take him at face value. I "come off" as that? Whatev. I specifically said what I didn't give a **** about. But see... If we are constantly telling you this type of behavior brands you with the scarlet letter ("A" is for "asshole,") then tell you why it does...all you really have to do is listen and not keep going on at how you don't think men's feelings were adequately considered. Honestly, the only disconnect I can see here is that I brought up earlier how there are different types of guys who put themselves in these situations for different reasons (VERY few of them positive, most of them either stemming from a lack of self confidence or a deranged sense of entitlement), but I feel like we're only focusing on one group here, the self-entitled schmucks who willfully lie about their intentions. I feel like you're trying to say I'm giving guys a pass for this, when most of what I've done in this thread is rail against this mindset. However, I did bring up how there are some guys who don't have horrible intentions when this stuff happens, and how rejection in the "social game" is a very real issue men face, and how some guys (not all) who allow this situation to happen simply need time and direction to grow out of it. That's not a demand for sympathy, as I honestly have very little for most cases like these, it's simply trying to get an understanding that not all guys that do this are lying, self-serving sexists; it doesn't make it a lot better, but some are simply misled, not confident enough, and might mean well without realizing how misinformed they are. That's all, just a minor distinction.
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SAJ Forth
Wade Wilson
Jamaican WCF Crazy!
Half Man-Half Amazing
Posts: 27,214
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Post by SAJ Forth on Jan 27, 2012 12:27:13 GMT -5
Two people having a relationship where they know they have different feelings is ridiculous. This is true.
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nate5054
Hank Scorpio
Lucky to be alive in the Chris Jericho Era
Posts: 7,011
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Post by nate5054 on Jan 27, 2012 12:50:10 GMT -5
It just seems like a choice between "death by 1,000 cuts" or "shot in face". Maybe there's the 1 - 1,000,000 chance, but in reality most people know what "friended" ends up being, a slow painful death. Of course having someone you happen to like laugh in your face and give a heel promo can be rough, but there is something to be said about it being over and done with in one blow. It's absolutely worse. Women don't seem to realize this for some reason though.
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nate5054
Hank Scorpio
Lucky to be alive in the Chris Jericho Era
Posts: 7,011
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Post by nate5054 on Jan 27, 2012 12:53:25 GMT -5
Worst thing about ending up in the friend zone is when she starts confiding in you about the guy she's seeing. Or even worse than that, the total absolute low you can get as a male is being attracted to a girl who is your "friend" and having her whine to you about a breakup and hearing her complain about how she can't find any good men and how you're a great friend for hearing her complaints, but never a good enough guy for her to actually date (which makes sense, given her awesome track record of finding good men).
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jan 27, 2012 12:59:43 GMT -5
But really though, if you're in a situation where listening to her vent is paining you to listen or what have ya, that's on you for putting yourself in that situation. Not saying that wouldn't/doesn't suck; but the whole thing about " she talks about other guys and her problems when a good guy is right here" is overblown because if she felt that way about ya, she'd be with ya.
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nate5054
Hank Scorpio
Lucky to be alive in the Chris Jericho Era
Posts: 7,011
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Post by nate5054 on Jan 27, 2012 13:22:00 GMT -5
But really though, if you're in a situation where listening to her vent is paining you to listen or what have ya, that's on you for putting yourself in that situation. Not saying that wouldn't/doesn't suck; but the whole thing about " she talks about other guys and her problems when a good guy is right here" is overblown because if she felt that way about ya, she'd be with ya. I put myself in those situations when I was a dumb teenager and in my early 20s, because for some dumb reason I thought it would lead to things. Being older and wiser I just don't talk to women like that now. It makes life much easier. I really have no idea what you meant with the last sentence TBH.
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Post by Alex Shelley on Jan 27, 2012 13:44:48 GMT -5
The only thing I loathe about being friend-zoned is when I get a version of "you're the kind of guy I need to find" followed by pointing out some trivial and often shallow reason why I don't qualify for more than friendship. It's attitudes like this that kinda squick me out. Just because somebody has all the traits you want doesn't mean they're going to be somebody you're romantically interested in. If the spark isn't there, it's simply not there, no matter how "trivial" it may seem. You're not entitled to the romantic interest of anybody you want.
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Post by GuyOfOwnage on Jan 27, 2012 14:12:30 GMT -5
I'm not exactly sure why the term "friend zone" is being applied exclusively to men - it applies equally to both genders, from my experience, and comes about as a result of poor communication skills and improper socialization. Communicating friendly interest and romantic interest are two vastly different things, and people in general seem to confuse one with the other quite often. They'll think they're communicating romantic interest, whereas they're not doing much more than asking to be someone's friend, so when they don't get any type of romantic response, they get upset or feel rejected. It can work both ways, too - there's every likelihood that the recipient is misunderstanding a romantic gesture as an act of friendship. That's why subtlety doesn't work if you want to pursue a romantic relationship. There's just too much potential for crossed wires.
I've seen it repeated again and again, and it holds true - be forward from the get-go. There's a reason they say first impressions are everything. If someone's first impression of you is a potential friend, then that's what you're going to be. I understand that things aren't always that cut and dry, but coming from someone who was "friend zoned" enough times to be the unofficial gatekeeper, that's what I find works. I've had a lot more romantic success, and fewer hurt feelings on both ends, since I just started being forward from the beginning.
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trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,605
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Post by trollrogue on Jan 27, 2012 14:17:56 GMT -5
Many are of the opinion that true friendship between women and men is impossible. The idea behind this line of thinking stems from gender identities that have been repeated for generations in our patriarchal society, which are partly tied to sexual (biological) differences. Women's bodies are inarguably more overtly sexualized than men's, thanks largely to the act of childbirth. The notion is seized upon by modern marketing (aka a female supermodel's "measurements" are her most important stat), and helps propagate the message that a woman's biggest contribution to humanity is her sex appeal. From this, boys and girls grow up with vastly different messages on the idea of 'friendship'. For a girl, friends can be either male or female, but the younger they are the more likely they are to only befriend other girls of course. Parents would of course push a girl to only date a boy if he's 'the one' to avoid the negative 'teenage preggers' stigma, thus making it more likely for a girl to friendzone a guy than vice versa. Boys are an entirely different story, it's unheard of for any boy to really be friends with a girl starting even at young ages. As mentioned earlier in this thread a boy that initiates a conversation with a girl in any given scenario will likely be seen as trying to 'put the moves on' the girl in the eyes of society at large. So they're trained to avoid girls like the plague, either as part of being a 'perfect gentleman' in a proper home, or in fear of being mercilessly mock by (especially homosexual) ad hominems against boys who identify more with girls. The whole 'cooties' thing is a pervertion of this idea (there has to be some way to keep fadingly-innocent boys away from the slowly-developing girls before the one gender notices how attractive the other one is. Anyway I could give hundreds of examples and bore you with a few papers I wrote on the politics of gender in our society, but for the most part in the eyes of of women guys have more utility than their ability to fertilize an egg. But in the eyes of a man, the first thing he'll see when viewing any given woman is a sex object of varying degrees of attraction. This guy says the same things, just in a much more crass way IMO. Check it out if you are lost on all the mindless banter I've been spouting, or just want a few good, thought-provoking laughs
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King Ghidorah
El Dandy
On Probation for Charges of two counts of Saxual Music.
How Absurd
Posts: 8,330
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Post by King Ghidorah on Jan 27, 2012 14:42:42 GMT -5
Some people here have been rejected then friend zoned, now that's a whole different story.
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trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,605
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Post by trollrogue on Jan 27, 2012 14:51:04 GMT -5
Okay, this part of that site I linked to before is especially appropriate for the discussion, so I figured I'd paste it up here: www.laddertheory.com/images/mansladder1.jpg(language warning on linked image) I admire the fact that this guy can simultaneously call out both women and men when errors are made in the dating game. It's really not always the man's or the woman's fault in every scenario, but I agree that most problems are avoided when the man (or woman if she's initiating contact) makes it clear that sex is what the endgame is.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Jan 27, 2012 15:13:15 GMT -5
Guys with low self-esteem can still be entitled clots and I don't see complaining about "The Friend Zone" the same as dealing with hurt feelings behind rejection from an actual romantic relationship. It's whining when the reality doesn't match up to your entitlement. The entire reason " just being friends" with a woman is something guys find the need to complain about is because it's implied the only thing a woman has to offer a man is romantic shenanigans. It's dehumanizing. If women were considered people and not an entirely different species of...."women" you wouldn't find so many guys go on about how oh-so-difficult it is. I don't give a **** about hurt feelings that involve complaining about "the friend zone." I wouldn't get any hugs over the guy only continuing to hang out with me because he's trying to finagle his way into my drawers, the best I'd get is "The guy watched The Notebook with you, IT WAS OBVIOUS HE WANTED TO MATE!" Because I'm to be psychic and tell all the intentions behind a guy wanting to hang out or buy things I never ask for him to buy? **** that. Nah, it's not like guys think that "just being friends" with a woman is awful or anything, it's just awful in those situations where you have romantic feelings for somebody that you're just friends with. It's not like you're upset that you can't get into their pants, you're upset because they don't feel the same way about you as you do about them. It's not a sense of entitlement, it's more of a "well what the f*** is wrong with me?" I mean, maybe there are some dipshits out there that would just hang out with a girl for months on end just for a chance of having sex with her, but that just sounds too weird for the normal guy. BTW, that whole friend zone thing happens to girls to. I've put a couple of girls into my own friend zone before. And they handled it pretty much exactly like guys usually do. They were willing to be my friend, but every month or so they'd get mad at me for not wanting to date them. I didn't get mad at them because they had alterior motives, I just took them at face value. Of course, once I started dating somebody they would pretty much go batshit crazy and that's when we'd stop talking. I find it interesting that women get so offended about the idea of a friend zone. Just because a guy wants to date you, not just be your friend, doesn't mean that you're only good for sex. By that logic, you're basically saying that a relationship is nothing but sex. Personally, when I have a crush on a woman, sex is one of the furthest things from my mind.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jan 27, 2012 17:22:59 GMT -5
I've seen the ladder theory before; what a buncha self-martyrdom.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 27, 2012 17:42:26 GMT -5
But really though, if you're in a situation where listening to her vent is paining you to listen or what have ya, that's on you for putting yourself in that situation. Not saying that wouldn't/doesn't suck; but the whole thing about " she talks about other guys and her problems when a good guy is right here" is overblown because if she felt that way about ya, she'd be with ya. Indeed; this was one of my earliest lessons in this whole thing. Back in senior year of high school, I had a friend who was in a musical with me, and she hit on me shamelessly. I didn't mind it at all, as we were already acquainted, I thought she was cute, etc. It got to the point that most people assumed that we were seeing each other. Reality was, though, we weren't. I had even attempted to make a move at one point, and she sort of playfully shot me down, yet in a way that still seemed very flirty. Fast forward a few weeks later: on a day when I wasn't at rehearsal, she hooks up with and starts dating another cast member. I wasn't angry at the guy, he was actually a bit of a buddy of mine, but it was a bit of a "WTF?" moment. Next school year starts and I'm in college, and she winds up breaking up with the other guy, and is IM'ing me all the time about the problems it was causing her, and hung out with me a few times. In my ignorant/misguided state (I was a late bloomer on the dating scene), I began thinking she now wanted to get with me, and I was willing to go along with it. I readily admit that I was half happy to be a "shoulder to cry on", but I'd be lying if I said I didn't think it'd lead to something for me. Selfish and stupid. She wound up dating another guy, who she's still with. Honestly, a lot of that was my own naivety/stupidity, but I learned from it. Thankfully I'm still pretty good friends with this woman; it was a long time ago, everyone involved was young, we all had a lot to learn about communication and expressing feelings. With the benefit of hindsight, I don't think we'd have truly worked as a couple, anyway. Now, once a guy has learned that lesson, he has no excuse to ever put himself in it again, not unless he's an honest-to-God friend with the woman and is selflessly willing to hear her issues and help her out with them. If that's not the case, then the guy hasn't learned a damn thing, and still thinks that he's somehow going to win over a woman by playing "Mr. Sensitive". By the by, I haven't seen the Ladder Theory referenced online in a good, long time. While some of his examples aren't really helpful when they exaggerate (e.g. "Jane starts sleeping with an unemployed alcoholic"...shifts a bit too much blame the woman's way, no?), it's not completely senseless, either. I can't tell you how many times I've faced "Scenario 2": meet a girl, seem to hit it off, schedule a date, have a nice evening, talk with her via phone/text/IM...then don't hear from her again. Think I'm not alone in that, it strikes a lot of guys.
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ibdude
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,706
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Post by ibdude on Jan 27, 2012 19:06:11 GMT -5
From what I'm reading on here it seems that Azteca Dragon has been hurt by somebody trying to get into her pants. I think she's confusing it for the low self esteem, low confidence guy that starts out as a friend then slowly starts developing feelings for the girl.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 27, 2012 19:28:54 GMT -5
From what I'm reading on here it seems that Azteca Dragon has been hurt by somebody trying to get into her pants. I think she's confusing it for the low self esteem, low confidence guy that starts out as a friend then slowly starts developing feelings for the girl. To be fair, I think a lot of the "low confidence/low self esteem" guys DO start out with feelings for the girl, but due to their lack of a decent self image they feel they're incapable of going up and just asking her out. Instead, they take a passive, easier, less-chance-of-confrontation-or-rejection approach of "just being friends". This is bad, disingenuous, and harmful to both parties involved, but unlike the the more self-entitled, overtly misogynistic schmucks who do the same thing (the "look how nice I am, REWARD ME!" tools), the low self-esteem guy tends not to come at it from such a selfish point of view. Rather, he's misguided, perhaps inexperienced, allowing his own perceived shortcomings to put him and the woman of his eye in an unfortunate situation. He's probably not a bad or outwardly selfish guy, but his actions (or lack thereof), unfortunately, are still negative and harmful. Different subject: I think we need to clear the hurdle that somehow thinking about sex with a person is instantaneously a bad thing. I have a number of women-who-are-friends whom I haven't slept with, don't go hang out with and intend to hit on, etc., but there's a number of them that, should a circumstance arise, I won't lie: I WOULD sleep with them. Would that mess up an otherwise normal friendship? Possibly, and I admit that I probably have a bit of a weakness in this regard, but it's silly to act like all sexual attraction is taken out of the equation the minute a man and woman treat one another as friends. Now, this is different from a friendship that only exists for the purpose of one party seeking to initiate a hookup, as that's obviously driven by selfish purposes and isn't an actual friendship at all, but I feel as if some discussion here acts as if "friendship" automatically means turning off all attraction levels. Frankly, I only do that with women that my friends or my brother are dating, they obviously become strictly off-limits in any sexual sense (see: Randall's explanation in Clerks 2).
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Jan 27, 2012 19:50:50 GMT -5
But really though, if you're in a situation where listening to her vent is paining you to listen or what have ya, that's on you for putting yourself in that situation. Not saying that wouldn't/doesn't suck; but the whole thing about " she talks about other guys and her problems when a good guy is right here" is overblown because if she felt that way about ya, she'd be with ya. and of course there's the obvious solution; if you don't want to hear about it you don't have to.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jan 27, 2012 19:55:23 GMT -5
That too.
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Post by AztecaDragon on Jan 27, 2012 21:14:26 GMT -5
Honestly, the only disconnect I can see here is that I brought up earlier how there are different types of guys who put themselves in these situations for different reasons (VERY few of them positive, most of them either stemming from a lack of self confidence or a deranged sense of entitlement), but I feel like we're only focusing on one group here, the self-entitled schmucks who willfully lie about their intentions. ....because the fact "the friend zone" is something to complain about makes complainers sound like self-entitled schmucks. That's...pretty much it. "The Friend Zone" is even classified as such because it's a place where guys don't want to be, I'm not crazy. Like I said, if you just listened to why the mentality is 32 flavors of ass cream instead of twisting yourself in knots trying to find whatever ways you can to not go mad from the revelation... It's rare for a guy to actually understand this type of behavior COMES FROM ENTITLEMENT and just isn't acceptable. Guys normally lose their damn minds trying to defend themselves and miss the point in the process. Because that's what you're doing whether you intend to do it or not. Understand what this sounds like to me when you go on to say: This entitlement stuff is not one of those things you can just golden mean into oblivion and I'd applaud you for being evenhanded. Dude, I tell you the entire attitude is rooted into entitled foolery. Then you say: "Yes, it is.... but sometimes..." No. No "sometimes." No "what ifs." No "but they just need time." No "but not all of them have bad intentions." It is what it is: an entitlement issue guys have to deal with at a basic level. As a woman that has to deal with guys who'd have this same sense of entitlement and ruining friendships with that manipulation crap? Yeah. I'm not trying to hear that self-serving **** about "well, the guys with low self-esteem may MEAN well..." when it leads to the same damn result. You're trying to focus on what you think is a minor distinction, despite the fact it's still, ultimately an entitlement issue. Frankly I think you're doing it just to save your own ass, but hey...I don't know you. Considering I've been spending pages talking about how the attitude is just bullroar...and considering I know I'm not the only woman who has ever said this in the history of history... "But some guys don't know this!" isn't an excuse I'm trying to entertain either. Tons of women and a few men have said what I've said repeatedly, so if they don't know they don't think they need to know. Or don't care. That's a privilege thing. I think she's confusing it for the low self esteem, low confidence guy that starts out as a friend then slowly starts developing feelings for the girl. ...but then still finds the need to complain about "just being friends" for whatever reason? Yes, that's rooted in the same entitled attitude. YOU CAN STILL BE A LOW SELF-ESTEEM, LOW CONFIDENCE GUY WHILE BEING AN ENTITLED ASSHOLE.
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Post by Starshine on Jan 27, 2012 22:19:37 GMT -5
Worst thing about ending up in the friend zone is when she starts confiding in you about the guy she's seeing. Or even worse than that, the total absolute low you can get as a male is being attracted to a girl who is your "friend" and having her whine to you about a breakup and hearing her complain about how she can't find any good men and how you're a great friend for hearing her complaints, but never a good enough guy for her to actually date (which makes sense, given her awesome track record of finding good men). Thankfully, I've never had that one. Though I've generally been lucky when it comes to my varying relationships with women. But I can imagine that would be completely messed up. It's just this one chick who's left me completely puzzled as to what's going on between us. I tried to cut things off between us just for the sake of my sanity. But she keeps coming back really upset about it. I don't know how to break this cycle aside from just trying to keep her at arms length. But even then she gets upset that I'm in her words "becoming distant." Considering I don't want to hurt her and genuinely care for her, it's hard to know how to handle it. Oh well. It can't all be easy.
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