stealthamo
King Koopa
Something stupid
#AJAll
Posts: 11,247
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Post by stealthamo on Aug 3, 2013 10:36:52 GMT -5
I'm not going to read 6+ pages of bickering and debate, so I'll just add in my two cents based on the first page and a half I did read. As far as actual wrestling ability goes, Benoit was one of the best IMO, and most people would agree with that. That being said, he committed an unspeakable and heinous act, one that took everybody by surprise when it happened. And based on the interview with Nancy's sister, he was still figuring out potential flight plans after the murder, giving the idea that he thought he might get away with it. This was also a guy who has had a history of abusing his wife, so doing it again wouldn't be too much of a shock. Basically, with his personality, the history of abuse (both spousal and steroid), and the history of head injuries, Benoit was a ticking time bomb, and that just happened to be the time he went off.
Now, I'm somebody who can generally watch a good amount of Benoit's stuff if I wanted to. However, I can't watch a good chunk of his later matches, where he does the flying headbutt and starts thriving around on the mat in pain, because it's just a reminder of what eventually happened. Yes, prior to what happened, he was going to be a Hall of Fame inductee, no questions asked. But I have absolutely no problem with them keeping him out/never acknowledging his accomplishments again, even if it is obvious that they are avoiding bringing him up like they do in the Royal Rumble by the numbers video. Would it be nice to see an occasional Benoit match on a DVD? Sure. But I completely get why WWE has barely done it since, and will continue to not do it in the future.
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SOR
Unicron
Posts: 2,611
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Post by SOR on Aug 3, 2013 11:43:45 GMT -5
The fact people in the earlier pages were attempting to defend Benoit saying he deserves a spot in history is really offensive to me. He is not a historic figure like Hitler, Stalin etc who cannot be deleted from history. Chris Benoit was a D Level celebrity at best and comparing him to some of the worlds biggest historical figures is asinine.
In regards to the Mental Health argument, it's not valid unless we're going to forgive child molesters, rapists and serial killers also. They all suffer from Mental Health issues as well and all of us would be angry if one of those 3 had committed a crime (And rightly so)
If you want to be a fan of Benoit, that's fine. But admit you're biased about the entire ordeal and are willing to forgive him for being a murderer just because he's a good wrestler.
Me personally? I can watch a Benoit match without images flashing into my head but I definitely would not sit on a public forum claiming that the WWE should recognize his achievements and promote him. That is pure insanity.
I just ask this to the Benoit supporters. Hypothetically lets say Benoit goes nuts and kills your child, father, girlfriend, mother, wife how would you feel? Would you still be for WWE recognizing him or would you want him deleted from history also?
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 3, 2013 11:53:25 GMT -5
I'm not going to read 6+ pages of bickering and debate, so I'll just add in my two cents based on the first page and a half I did read. As far as actual wrestling ability goes, Benoit was one of the best IMO, and most people would agree with that. That being said, he committed an unspeakable and heinous act, one that took everybody by surprise when it happened. And based on the interview with Nancy's sister, he was still figuring out potential flight plans after the murder, giving the idea that he thought he might get away with it. I do think it's a bad idea to try to figure out his mindset or any plans, despite hating what he did and being glad WWE rarely if ever mentions him. You can go crazy and still successfully pull off basic behaviors. For all we know the delay in killing himself might not have been the result of any attempt to get away with anything, it might have simply taken that long to realize what he did.
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Post by bearhug on Aug 3, 2013 12:03:51 GMT -5
CHRIS BENOIT IS HERE AND HE'S REALLY MAD! CHRIS BENOIT IS HERE AND HE'S REALLY ANGGRRRYYYY!
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Post by Dave the Dave on Aug 3, 2013 12:09:18 GMT -5
Oh he was on Ric Flair mode the last couple years anyway (robotic matches I mean)
I say we go ahead and clip him from history outside of his huge accomplishments.
And the DDP/Raven Feud.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 28,900
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Post by Sephiroth on Aug 3, 2013 12:21:59 GMT -5
The closest thing I want in terms of WAE promoting Benoit would be to start using his matches on their DVD collections-and even then it would be more for the sake of others than his. For instance if there were ever to be a compilation DVD for Kurt Angle I would hope that they would include st least one of his matches with Benoit, because they put on some awesome shows together. I also believe that Benoit's story was a major factor in the number of wrestlers we have seen deciding to call it a career at comparatively you ages. It was not the only reason, but seeing what the punishment of the ring and the hazardous nature of the lifestyle can do to a human being is bound to have played a hand in wrestlers like Edge deciding to call it and seek other opportunities before it Dan all take such a toll.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,955
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Post by chazraps on Aug 3, 2013 12:35:09 GMT -5
I'm not going to read 6+ pages of bickering and debate, Why not? It's a discussion board. It's not a "I'm not going to read what you wrote, but HEY EVERYBODY! LOOK AT WHAT I HAVE TO SAY!" board.
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Post by Mushroomhead on Aug 3, 2013 12:44:59 GMT -5
Also, as weird and unsettling as this thread got, I'm at least glad we got to seven pages without some nutzoid saying they didn't believe Benoit committed the murders and posting a conspiracy theory. Kevin Sullivan didit. With that being said, TIL all Lakers fans love rapists; everyone who likes Mark Wahlberg supports hate crimes; and all Beatles fans are all for murdering women.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Aug 3, 2013 12:47:18 GMT -5
Also, as weird and unsettling as this thread got, I'm at least glad we got to seven pages without some nutzoid saying they didn't believe Benoit committed the murders and posting a conspiracy theory. Kevin Sullivan didit. With that being said, TIL all Lakers fans love rapists; everyone who likes Mark Wahlberg supports hate crimes; and all Beatles fans are all for murdering women. Not gonna lie, one google search later and my adoration of Wahlberg is now lessened.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Aug 3, 2013 13:14:26 GMT -5
Yeah, Hennig had charisma. Benoit had charisma too. Charisma is not = mic skills Yeah...forgive me for trying to lighten the mood in the thread by saying something off the wall. The fact people in the earlier pages were attempting to defend Benoit saying he deserves a spot in history is really offensive to me. He is not a historic figure like Hitler, Stalin etc who cannot be deleted from history. Chris Benoit was a D Level celebrity at best and comparing him to some of the worlds biggest historical figures is asinine. See, I kind of understand what you're saying. But I would only attribute that to WWE and their way of kayfabing. But if Meltzer or someone composed a compilation of the history of professional wrestling going in depth and staying entirely out of kayfabe, then yes, Benoit should be a large part of that, only for the fallout from those events. The man put one of the biggest black eyes on the business and far exceeds any great match or title he may have won in his 20+ years of wrestling, so when it comes to ignoring there, it couldn't be done. But yes, in any other case, he could be ignored, his crowning achievement as World champion at Wrestlemania XX wasn't landmark in any real sense, so to skip over those 8 months if WWE attempted to go through the last decade of wrestling in the land of kayfabe, it's an easy skip and not vital to anything that has happened since. Benoit wasn't a Hogan or a Cena, thankfully.
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Post by canceled4truth on Aug 3, 2013 14:23:25 GMT -5
Also, as weird and unsettling as this thread got, I'm at least glad we got to seven pages without some nutzoid saying they didn't believe Benoit committed the murders and posting a conspiracy theory. Kevin Sullivan didit. With that being said, TIL all Lakers fans love rapists; everyone who likes Mark Wahlberg supports hate crimes; and all Beatles fans are all for murdering women. Wait, one of the Beatles murdered a woman? Or was that referring to Charles Manson?
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stealthamo
King Koopa
Something stupid
#AJAll
Posts: 11,247
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Post by stealthamo on Aug 3, 2013 14:29:22 GMT -5
I'm not going to read 6+ pages of bickering and debate, so I'll just add in my two cents based on the first page and a half I did read. As far as actual wrestling ability goes, Benoit was one of the best IMO, and most people would agree with that. That being said, he committed an unspeakable and heinous act, one that took everybody by surprise when it happened. And based on the interview with Nancy's sister, he was still figuring out potential flight plans after the murder, giving the idea that he thought he might get away with it. I do think it's a bad idea to try to figure out his mindset or any plans, despite hating what he did and being glad WWE rarely if ever mentions him. You can go crazy and still successfully pull off basic behaviors. For all we know the delay in killing himself might not have been the result of any attempt to get away with anything, it might have simply taken that long to realize what he did. That's a good point. I'm no psychologist, so I probably shouldn't be trying to figure out what he was doing when this was all transpiring. I'll leave that up to people who are more knowledgeable in that area. I'm not going to read 6+ pages of bickering and debate, Why not? It's a discussion board. It's not a "I'm not going to read what you wrote, but HEY EVERYBODY! LOOK AT WHAT I HAVE TO SAY!" board. Sorry, thought I'd like to throw my two cents in. I figured I'd throw that in because I wouldn't know if I was repeating something that somebody said in the middle of the thread. Besides, it's not like this is a topic that's going to tread new ground into anything. Most of the Benoit threads I've read end up devolving into bickering and a mod lock.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,955
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Post by chazraps on Aug 3, 2013 14:57:36 GMT -5
Why not? It's a discussion board. It's not a "I'm not going to read what you wrote, but HEY EVERYBODY! LOOK AT WHAT I HAVE TO SAY!" board. Sorry, thought I'd like to throw my two cents in. I figured I'd throw that in because I wouldn't know if I was repeating something that somebody said in the middle of the thread. Besides, it's not like this is a topic that's going to tread new ground into anything. Most of the Benoit threads I've read end up devolving into bickering and a mod lock. Then why even post?
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stealthamo
King Koopa
Something stupid
#AJAll
Posts: 11,247
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Post by stealthamo on Aug 3, 2013 16:27:31 GMT -5
Sorry, thought I'd like to throw my two cents in. I figured I'd throw that in because I wouldn't know if I was repeating something that somebody said in the middle of the thread. Besides, it's not like this is a topic that's going to tread new ground into anything. Most of the Benoit threads I've read end up devolving into bickering and a mod lock. Then why even post? So I could state my opinion on it. Just because I've seen pretty much every opinion on Benoit doesn't mean everybody else has. I figured I'd put my own perspective. Sorry if me not necessarily caring about the opinions of others on one topic that has been discussed ad nauseum but still stating what I thought about it bothers you.
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Chip
Hank Scorpio
Slam Jam Death.
Posts: 5,185
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Post by Chip on Aug 3, 2013 17:20:04 GMT -5
Not gonna lie, one google search later and my adoration of Wahlberg is now lessened. Yes but let's not let that get in the way of Marky Mark and the Funky Bunch getting into a musical hall of fame.
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Post by Mushroomhead on Aug 3, 2013 22:00:02 GMT -5
Kevin Sullivan didit. With that being said, TIL all Lakers fans love rapists; everyone who likes Mark Wahlberg supports hate crimes; and all Beatles fans are all for murdering women. Wait, one of the Beatles murdered a woman? Or was that referring to Charles Manson? Phil Spector, who produced the Beatles' Let it Be album, murdered an actress ten years ago.
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Post by canceled4truth on Aug 3, 2013 22:07:47 GMT -5
Wait, one of the Beatles murdered a woman? Or was that referring to Charles Manson? Phil Spector, who produced the Beatles' Let it Be album, murdered an actress ten years ago. That was my next guess.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Aug 3, 2013 22:21:23 GMT -5
Well since people keep glazing over the statements that NOBODY has yet to defend Benoit's actions and are strawmanning that from people appreciating his work to condemn those people I will state why I personally still like watching Benoit matches.
I never knew Benoit's sons name until after the incident and Nancy/Woman had very little impact on myself as a wrestling fan and I only vaguely knew of her. When I originally watched Benoit matches I never knew or cared who they were and I doubt anyone else did. So when I watched Benoit originally it was about Benoit the performer and the performance he put on in the ring with the performers opposite him. That hasn't changed for me. I didn't see an abusive husband then and I can still watch it and not see one. Maybe that makes me callous but truth be told he's not the only person who's evil I have overlooked.
Randy Savage was the performer I loved in the eighties. I loved the character he portrayed. Years later when I learned of the abuse and drugs in the Elizabeth relationship I was abhored. And when those drugs took Elizabeth I was angry, but when I caught Randy on those rare occasions WWE used him in archived footage I was taken back to that character and those memories.
When I heard about what Austin did to Debra I was very pissed off. He was still active and a huge roll model to kids and I thought WWE should have taken a hard stand against him. However, when that glass shattered and he began his strut to the ring I confess I was lost in the moment.
I watch wrestling as an escape from reality. In the wrestling world people get run over and put a bandage on and fight later that night. In reality people I know have died in car wrecks. In the wrestling world men who hit women are sometimes the good guys. In reality I have had several female friends in terribly abusive relationships and never ever thought that was justifiable.
I understand why WWE distances themselves from him and never expect him to go into their hall of fame. I completey appreciate their stance and support it. Their is no way to show the man that once was now without either looking like some vultures preying on the dead for a buck. However, changing commentary from the past is also a bad situation. It makes things awkward and pushes people to try to find original context. We've all had that moment I'm sure as wrestling fans when someone first drops a name on us like Art Barr or Danny Hodge and we go to the internet. Someday that name will be Benoit.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Aug 3, 2013 22:34:12 GMT -5
The fact people in the earlier pages were attempting to defend Benoit saying he deserves a spot in history is really offensive to me. He is not a historic figure like Hitler, Stalin etc who cannot be deleted from history. Chris Benoit was a D Level celebrity at best and comparing him to some of the worlds biggest historical figures is asinine. In regards to the Mental Health argument, it's not valid unless we're going to forgive child molesters, rapists and serial killers also. They all suffer from Mental Health issues as well and all of us would be angry if one of those 3 had committed a crime (And rightly so) If you want to be a fan of Benoit, that's fine. But admit you're biased about the entire ordeal and are willing to forgive him for being a murderer just because he's a good wrestler. Me personally? I can watch a Benoit match without images flashing into my head but I definitely would not sit on a public forum claiming that the WWE should recognize his achievements and promote him. That is pure insanity. I just ask this to the Benoit supporters. Hypothetically lets say Benoit goes nuts and kills your child, father, girlfriend, mother, wife how would you feel? Would you still be for WWE recognizing him or would you want him deleted from history also? I don't forgive him for being a murderer. You're making an argument for people then shooting it down with your own logic. I ask this of you as a Hogan fan, would you still support that mindset if people thought it was ok to bang your wife like Hogan did to his buddy because by your logic appreciating a performer is advocating for the stuff they do outside the ring. Hypothetically would you still believe that, if Hogan bought booze for his son to go street racing with one of your loved ones and they ended up like... and then he said they had it coming anyway. Would you personally want Hogan deleted from history? Should your personal judgement be allowed to dictate how others feel about him? I bet there are some people with the last name Graziano who shudder when they hear Hogan praised. But you know what play Real American with that image above on the titantron and people are still going to mark like it's 1983 allover. Are they callous for not crying themselves to sleep over a kid they never knew and instead living their lives taking their enjoyment where and when they can?
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Aug 3, 2013 22:56:11 GMT -5
The Hall of Fame shouldn't be an issue for Chris Benoit anymore- IMO, the perfect way it was handled was in 2011. The Four Horsemen went in as a stable. It's covered. If you think Benoit should be in the Hall of Fame, then he's in as a Four Horseman. If you don't think he should be in the Hall of Fame, you don't have to recognize him as a Hall of Famer. The Four Horsemen is in- that's all that needs to be said either way- whether you want Benoit in or you want him out, you're right.
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