Woo
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Post by Woo on Aug 26, 2014 17:50:19 GMT -5
"I hate Cena, the wrestler, but the person himself is a good man." I disagree. He can't be. If he was such a nice guy he wouldn't go out there and make people like the Wyatt family look like shit. He just wasn't. Either he's Hogan, HHH and HBK levels of arseholeness or he's a complete idiot and oblivious to what he's doing. No middle ground.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 26, 2014 17:55:01 GMT -5
"I hate Cena, the wrestler, but the person himself is a good man." I disagree. He can't be. If he was such a nice guy he wouldn't go out there and make people like the Wyatt family look like shit. He just wasn't. Either he's Hogan, HHH and HBK levels of arseholeness or he's a complete idiot and oblivious to what he's doing. No middle ground. He didn't book it, it's pretty much not his call. Besides, to us, this is, depending on the person, anything from a mild annoyance to a grave injustice visited upon one of our favorite acts. To him, it was Monday. The conversation probably went like this: "Yo, John, you and the Wyatts tonight." "All 3?" "Yeah." "Alright, cool, I'll be in catering." These shows are often booked so last minute, there's not a lot of time to protest one way or another without it being a major incident, like Punk leaving or one of 90s Shawn's famous bitch fits.
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Aug 26, 2014 17:55:16 GMT -5
"I hate Cena, the wrestler, but the person himself is a good man." I disagree. He can't be. If he was such a nice guy he wouldn't go out there and make people like the Wyatt family look like shit. He just wasn't. Either he's Hogan, HHH and HBK levels of arseholeness or he's a complete idiot and oblivious to what he's doing. No middle ground. that's ridiculous. All Cena did to Wyatt last night was what tons of heels do to faces.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 26, 2014 17:57:51 GMT -5
"I hate Cena, the wrestler, but the person himself is a good man." I disagree. He can't be. If he was such a nice guy he wouldn't go out there and make people like the Wyatt family look like shit. He just wasn't. Either he's Hogan, HHH and HBK levels of arseholeness or he's a complete idiot and oblivious to what he's doing. No middle ground. He didn't book it, it's pretty much not his call. Besides, to us, this is, depending on the person, anything from a mild annoyance to a grave injustice visited upon one of our favorite acts. To him, it was Monday. The conversation probably went like this: "Yo, John, you and the Wyatts tonight." "All 3?" "Yeah." "Alright, cool, I'll be in catering." These shows are often booked so last minute, there's not a lot of time to protest one way or another without it being a major incident, like Punk leaving or one of 90s Shawn's famous bitch fits. "To you, the day I squashed the Wyatts was one of the worst endings to Raw ever; to me it was Monday."
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Woo
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Post by Woo on Aug 26, 2014 18:09:44 GMT -5
"I hate Cena, the wrestler, but the person himself is a good man." I disagree. He can't be. If he was such a nice guy he wouldn't go out there and make people like the Wyatt family look like shit. He just wasn't. Either he's Hogan, HHH and HBK levels of arseholeness or he's a complete idiot and oblivious to what he's doing. No middle ground. that's ridiculous. All Cena did to Wyatt last night was what tons of heels do to faces. The man sabotaged Rybacks career, the Wyatt's career (even if they recover, it's no thanks to Cena), the Nexxus careers amongst others. It's time we called a spade a spade and maybe stopped being so delusional with regards to "Nice guy Cena", he has to be doing this on purpose. CM Punk's pipebomb about Cena excelling at kissing Vince McMahon's arse is seemingly becoming more and more relevent.
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AFN: Judge Shred
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Post by AFN: Judge Shred on Aug 26, 2014 18:15:43 GMT -5
As I am typing this I see another mentioned this but last night means that Bray actually won the Cena feud. He was saying winning and losing didn't matter, but showing that Cena was a monster was his goal. He got what he wanted last night.
What they could of done was the whole "have Cena taped up" part to show vulnerability. Have Triple H taunt the hell out of John (he wanted the title off him by any means, play it up). Cena then threatens Trips "You put my life, my legacy on the line, your wife is a leather clad ho", whatever. Trips sends out Kane to make a point. Kane starts strong, then a switch hits in Cena and he does the "crush,kill, destroy" bit he did to Bray.
This wont hurt Kane at all. And he is still viewed as a big enough threat for it to work. This way the Wyatts don't have to eat it like that too.
As for all the people saying "Cena needs to have confidence going in", well yeah, he does. But he had to lose it and rebuild it, we never saw the rebuild, that is where the narrative messed up. We missed out on the "why" why is he so confident now? He has no reason to be, nothing changed!
That said, the PPVs are so close together that the story doesn't have as much time to breathe.
As for the sports analogy, sure, the guys come out and say confident things, it doesn't mean they don't feel doubt. They have to say certain things. Wrestling is story telling though, and should be treated as such.
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Aug 26, 2014 18:25:58 GMT -5
that's ridiculous. All Cena did to Wyatt last night was what tons of heels do to faces. The man sabotaged Rybacks career, the Wyatt's career (even if they recover, it's no thanks to Cena), the Nexxus careers amongst others. It's time we called a spade a spade and maybe stopped being so delusional with regards to "Nice guy Cena", he has to be doing this on purpose. CM Punk's pipebomb about Cena excelling at kissing Vince McMahon's arse is seemingly becoming more and more relevent. Ryback was ruined by the Shield if not being put up against Punk when he could not win the title. And then he lost at Wrestlemania to Mark Henry
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Aug 26, 2014 18:30:59 GMT -5
As I am typing this I see another mentioned this but last night means that Bray actually won the Cena feud. He was saying winning and losing didn't matter, but showing that Cena was a monster was his goal. He got what he wanted last night. What they could of done was the whole "have Cena taped up" part to show vulnerability. Have Triple H taunt the hell out of John (he wanted the title off him by any means, play it up). Cena then threatens Trips "You put my life, my legacy on the line, your wife is a leather clad ho", whatever. Trips sends out Kane to make a point. Kane starts strong, then a switch hits in Cena and he does the "crush,kill, destroy" bit he did to Bray. This wont hurt Kane at all. And he is still viewed as a big enough threat for it to work. This way the Wyatts don't have to eat it like that too. As for all the people saying "Cena needs to have confidence going in", well yeah, he does. But he had to lose it and rebuild it, we never saw the rebuild, that is where the narrative messed up. We missed out on the "why" why is he so confident now? He has no reason to be, nothing changed! That said, the PPVs are so close together that the story doesn't have as much time to breathe. As for the sports analogy, sure, the guys come out and say confident things, it doesn't mean they don't feel doubt. They have to say certain things. Wrestling is story telling though, and should be treated as such. the hero gets down on himself is the most boring, most repetitive, tedious part of modern storytelling in the world
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Woo
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Post by Woo on Aug 26, 2014 18:31:52 GMT -5
Ryback was still over despite all of that. The feud with Cena is what ruined him for good. Of course the logical end to that storyline was Ryback taking the title from CM Punk at Wrestlemania, but of course Cena NEEDED to win it there. A question for all those who think Cena is acting "illogically". When a sports star gets absolutely beaten in competition, beaten to the point that its quite clear who the better man/team is, how often do you see them admit it the next time the two face? How many show actual doubt before the rematch? Doesn't happen often. Its just as likely they're going to puff up their chest and make some kind of bold prediction about them winning. This is what happens in the real world. If it happens in the real world, you cannot claim it makes no sense, because there are concrete examples of it happening. Pretty sure that's exactly what Brazil will do when they face Germany again in another world cup. What they won't do is say "we were unlucky in 2014, but I know we are good enough to win with the same team this time!! It was just an off day, you'll see!" To quote myself with another world cup reference- Brazil were beaten in Brazil in the 1950 world cup "final". A defeat that the nation have still never quite recovered from. They didn't gloss over it. They didn't undersell it, but they used that as their motivation to become their motivation from then on.They changed the way they played the game. The worked hard. They studied. They improved. This is what Cena should do, rather than just shrug and resort to Plan A again. They wanted to get rid of their demons when the world cup returned this year... ...Then they lost again. 7-1... Hopefully that happens to Cena once more.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 18:52:34 GMT -5
They can tell the story without Cena being afraid. If he at least came out visibly injured, I would feel differently. That way, if he give the same speech, it becomes a different story. Then everyone can see how much it took out of him, but he's too tough and proud to admit it and is going to fight anyway. Instead, he isn't afraid AND there's no signs the match physically bothered him. That negates the beating. But what if after losing at NOC THEN they show him being bothered by it? You know, like now Cena has to accept that he flat out can't beat Lesnar instead of Lesnar getting the better of him on one night? Well that's not what anyone is saying at all. What we (I'm using this loosely I can't know what the collective we wants, I digress) wanted was for Cena to take a few weeks of, You can show vignettes of him being conflicted about returning after such a monumental beating, Focus on him thinking maybe his time is up and he can't hang any more. When he does return his matches should be telling a story of him making simple mistakes all steaming form his loss, Make Cena his own worst enemy with Brock being played up as a total monster. Continuing you have Brock have a few handicap matches against guys like Show and Henry or Rybaxel which would be total squashes. This way when you get to your blow off match you have this tension, Can Cena win? How Can you stop this guy at all? Instead we got Cena doing what Brock did, Cole masterbating to it and praising it, The utter burial and extinguishing of the last burning embers of a wrestler. So now the story is Cena Angry, Cena beat up guy, Legends blowing Cenas ego, Cena Wins. That's exactly what I said. You want Cena to go into this thinking he's a complete loser, which makes the match pointless. I mean if he thinks he should retire, but Triple H, Mark Henry, Big Show, etc. are all still around after taking WORSE beatings from Lesnar, then what does that say about Cena? He doesn't need to go in thinking he has no chance, he just shouldn't be approaching it as, "I'm going to do the same thing except angrier." He should have been playing it smart in the Bray match, focusing entirely on trying to get the STF out of nowhere because that was the closest he came to putting Lesnar down at SummerSlam. He needs to fight smart, not just decide, "Yeah, Hulk threw me through a brick wall, but now I'm gonna smash him!"
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 26, 2014 22:45:01 GMT -5
The biggest problem here is that, by having Cena already back on screen and dominating another wrestler so soon after his dismantling at the hands of Lesnar, the WWE has already blown one of its all time potential biggest moments.
Unless I'm completely blanking on it, there has never been a "face of the WWF/E" in its history so thoroughly torn apart by such a legitimatized heel opponent. Not Bruno, not Backlund, not Hogan, not Bret or Shawn or Diesel, not Austin or Rock, etc. In pure storytelling terms, this is a cataclysmic level event in the fictional world of WWF/E; as said so often before, this is Superman dying at the hands of Doomsday, only this time Doomsday didn't just also survive the battle, he completely thrashed Superman and humiliated him in the process.
Storytelling 101 says that this should shake the very foundation of the company, and should be followed by major consequences. It doesn't mean that Cena can't eventually show back up, can't rebuild himself in some way, but there has to be some sort of impact on him, along with just about everybody else. You can't blow this: you've gone 60+ years without an angle like this available to you, now you finally have it due to the convergence of a guy who's been on top of the company for 10+ years and a guy who was first built as an unstoppable beast in WWF, and then won the biggest title in a legitimate combat sports league. This is your chance to do this angle and have people buy it 100%; nobody can deny it being a big moment.
None of this is to say that Cena has to go emo or completely broken in spirit, but for some reason we're letting this thread get bogged down in strawman arguments instead of acknowledging that a hero can go through changes, crises, and moments of vulnerability without having to go all late 80s/early 90s "grimdark" in their overall characterization.
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JoDaNa1281
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Post by JoDaNa1281 on Aug 26, 2014 22:58:24 GMT -5
"I hate Cena, the wrestler, but the person himself is a good man." I disagree. He can't be. If he was such a nice guy he wouldn't go out there and make people like the Wyatt family look like shit. He just wasn't. Either he's Hogan, HHH and HBK levels of arseholeness or he's a complete idiot and oblivious to what he's doing. No middle ground. He didn't book it, it's pretty much not his call. Besides, to us, this is, depending on the person, anything from a mild annoyance to a grave injustice visited upon one of our favorite acts. To him, it was Monday. The conversation probably went like this: "Yo, John, you and the Wyatts tonight." "All 3?" "Yeah." "Alright, cool, I'll be in catering."Sounds sexy
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Aug 26, 2014 23:24:21 GMT -5
He didn't book it, it's pretty much not his call. Besides, to us, this is, depending on the person, anything from a mild annoyance to a grave injustice visited upon one of our favorite acts. To him, it was Monday. The conversation probably went like this: "Yo, John, you and the Wyatts tonight." "All 3?" "Yeah." "Alright, cool, I'll be in catering." These shows are often booked so last minute, there's not a lot of time to protest one way or another without it being a major incident, like Punk leaving or one of 90s Shawn's famous bitch fits. "To you, the day I squashed the Wyatts was one of the worst endings to Raw ever; to me it was Monday." Fun Fact, it's not the first time Cena has done this either. Nexus, Survivor Series. Jericho and Edge on I believe Jericho's Podcast discussed him going over the Nexus in that fashion, was his idea, and Booking went with it because he's Cena. Jericho and Edge both told him how stupid this was because it would effectively kill Nexus and how over they were at the time, but Cena didn't listen and thought he was right in doing what he did. When he went backstage after the event, he told Jericho and Edge that he F***ed up, and doing it like that was a bad idea
Obviously, he hasn't learned from that though, because he's still doing it, to over Factions no less. So as I said on Page 1 of this Thread, F*** Cena, he's a leech.
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mizerable
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Post by mizerable on Aug 26, 2014 23:45:44 GMT -5
Ryback was ruined by the Shield if not being put up against Punk when he could not win the title. And then he lost at Wrestlemania to Mark Henry And was still pretty over before they turned him heel for no reason other than Cena needed something to do.
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AFN: Judge Shred
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Post by AFN: Judge Shred on Aug 26, 2014 23:47:01 GMT -5
Ryback was ruined by the Shield if not being put up against Punk when he could not win the title. And then he lost at Wrestlemania to Mark Henry And was still pretty over before they turned him heel for no reason other than Cena needed something to do. Ryback himself has said a few times that he begged them to let him go heel.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 26, 2014 23:53:47 GMT -5
Ryback as a heel even woulda worked if he'd been the same destroyer he was. Instead, he became a bitch that couldn't finish a match against Miz because of a kick to the shin.
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Jiren
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Post by Jiren on Aug 27, 2014 1:20:03 GMT -5
I would find that massively out of character for Cena. And the Doctor of Thuganomics got his knee destroyed by Lesnar and lost his title match when he returned so that doesn't work God forbid his character ever changes even slightly. The day Cena shows any character change
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Jiren
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Post by Jiren on Aug 27, 2014 1:21:26 GMT -5
Ryback as a heel even woulda worked if he'd been the same destroyer he was. Instead, he became a bitch that couldn't finish a match against Miz because of a kick to the shin. That's why i feel his sabbatical could do him a world of good. When he comes back he can be a destructive beast
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 27, 2014 3:06:37 GMT -5
Ryback as a heel even woulda worked if he'd been the same destroyer he was. Instead, he became a bitch that couldn't finish a match against Miz because of a kick to the shin. I honestly saw no problem with this. Miz doesn't normally do dropkicks, so it really sold Ryback as a threat who forced Miz to dig deep and do a move that wasn't in his repertoire. Plus Ryback decisively got his win back later by faking the leg injury.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Aug 27, 2014 4:11:07 GMT -5
Oh for f***s sake how hard would it be for them to get Cena to show some goddamm vulnerability against Brock freaking Lesnar. Because he has done it before in fueds just go back to his feud with Umaga where Cena admitted that he got his arse kicked and was victorious because of luck.
This would make sense considering the mega mauling he got at Summerslamm but nope gotta go back to typical old Super Cena.
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