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Post by joediego on Aug 27, 2014 4:15:15 GMT -5
I have a question about fan's attitude to Cena.
Every criticism of him is in his booking. It's CREATIVE's fault.
How come HBK, HHH, Hogan, Nash and 20+ more wrestlers were criticised throughout their careers (often correctly) for using their own influence to bury others and keep themselves on top, whereas Cena is percieved as not doing this?
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Post by joediego on Aug 27, 2014 4:17:33 GMT -5
"I hate Cena, the wrestler, but the person himself is a good man." I disagree. He can't be. If he was such a nice guy he wouldn't go out there and make people like the Wyatt family look like shit. He just wasn't. Either he's Hogan, HHH and HBK levels of arseholeness or he's a complete idiot and oblivious to what he's doing. No middle ground. You got there first, well done. Cena isn't a little bunny rabbit that doesn't have any influence, he is completely complicit in burying his competitors and opponents. It's smart business for him, he makes money and keeps his spot. I just don't understand why people think he's innocent of this, whereas all of the other top guys through history were guilty.
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Post by "Gentleman" AJ Powell on Aug 27, 2014 4:29:36 GMT -5
Ryback as a heel even woulda worked if he'd been the same destroyer he was. Instead, he became a bitch that couldn't finish a match against Miz because of a kick to the shin. I honestly saw no problem with this. Miz doesn't normally do dropkicks, so it really sold Ryback as a threat who forced Miz to dig deep and do a move that wasn't in his repertoire. Plus Ryback decisively got his win back later by faking the leg injury. But it's not like Miz is built up as being a striker or even particularly strong. If it was someone like Bryan who's kicks are played up as being brutal, it'd make more sense. Especially seeing as we'd seen Ryback take worse beatings in bigger matches, then he gets kicked in the leg a few times and he's done? Sorry, don't buy it.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Aug 27, 2014 4:39:11 GMT -5
I have a question about fan's attitude to Cena. Every criticism of him is in his booking. It's CREATIVE's fault. How come HBK, HHH, Hogan, Nash and 20+ more wrestlers were criticised throughout their careers (often correctly) for using their own influence to bury others and keep themselves on top, whereas Cena is percieved as not doing this? I think it's mostly because there hasn't really been that many stories about it that have come out. All I can remember there being on Cena off the top of my head is the testimony of a few former lower-card guys (Michael Tarver and Tyler Reks, I think?) and Edge and Jericho's recollection of the finish to the match against The Nexus. Please feel free to correct me if there is more than that. With the other names you've mentioned, there were stories coming out about them every other week during their main event runs.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 27, 2014 4:49:49 GMT -5
"I hate Cena, the wrestler, but the person himself is a good man." I disagree. He can't be. If he was such a nice guy he wouldn't go out there and make people like the Wyatt family look like shit. He just wasn't. Either he's Hogan, HHH and HBK levels of arseholeness or he's a complete idiot and oblivious to what he's doing. No middle ground. You got there first, well done. Cena isn't a little bunny rabbit that doesn't have any influence, he is completely complicit in burying his competitors and opponents. It's smart business for him, he makes money and keeps his spot. I just don't understand why people think he's innocent of this, whereas all of the other top guys through history were guilty. because people have reported other people doing. With one exception which was a team match not completely about Cena it's never been reported on Cena
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 27, 2014 4:54:35 GMT -5
I honestly saw no problem with this. Miz doesn't normally do dropkicks, so it really sold Ryback as a threat who forced Miz to dig deep and do a move that wasn't in his repertoire. Plus Ryback decisively got his win back later by faking the leg injury. But it's not like Miz is built up as being a striker or even particularly strong. If it was someone like Bryan who's kicks are played up as being brutal, it'd make more sense. Especially seeing as we'd seen Ryback take worse beatings in bigger matches, then he gets kicked in the leg a few times and he's done? Sorry, don't buy it. I just thought of it as Ryback being lazy. He wasn't particularly hurt by the move but it showed Miz was going to take more effort than he was willing to put out.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 27, 2014 4:55:41 GMT -5
Oh for f***s sake how hard would it be for them to get Cena to show some goddamm vulnerability against Brock freaking Lesnar. Because he has done it before in fueds just go back to his feud with Umaga where Cena admitted that he got his arse kicked and was victorious because of luck. This would make sense considering the mega mauling he got at Summerslamm but nope gotta go back to typical old Super Cena. the match that actually happened was enough vulnerability for me.
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Post by "Gentleman" AJ Powell on Aug 27, 2014 4:56:18 GMT -5
But it's not like Miz is built up as being a striker or even particularly strong. If it was someone like Bryan who's kicks are played up as being brutal, it'd make more sense. Especially seeing as we'd seen Ryback take worse beatings in bigger matches, then he gets kicked in the leg a few times and he's done? Sorry, don't buy it. I just thought of it as Ryback being lazy. He wasn't particularly hurt by the move but it showed Miz was going to take more effort than he was willing to put out. Put out? You sure you and Catch/Us haven't switched gimmicks?
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 27, 2014 5:03:05 GMT -5
I just thought of it as Ryback being lazy. He wasn't particularly hurt by the move but it showed Miz was going to take more effort than he was willing to put out. Put out? You sure you and Catch/Us haven't switched gimmicks? I don't want to switch gimmicks with mrjl.
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Post by hossfan on Aug 27, 2014 5:28:01 GMT -5
Oh for f***s sake how hard would it be for them to get Cena to show some goddamm vulnerability against Brock freaking Lesnar. Seeing the highlights of the absolute dismantling he suffered at Summerslam, apparently not very.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 27, 2014 5:30:58 GMT -5
With Miz thing it was just incongruous, sorta like when they tried to.make him a dangerous badass, or to a lesser degree a main eventer.
It just looked silly from a kayfabe standpoint. Miz is fine as delusional midcard doofus, but more than that, and they're overreaching with him. He's easily the worst WWE champ of the last 20 years. That Mania was such an aberration, in terms of one guy never should have been.there.
So this was a combo of booking Ryback weird&booking Miz too strong.
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HBL
Unicron
This is what yoga does to you.
Posts: 3,196
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Post by HBL on Aug 27, 2014 9:22:23 GMT -5
Yeah, it was stupid as hell but it's understandable that they want to milk the match at least once more. If this leads to a No DQ match and this time Brock kills Cena off completely, I think I can be able to pass through all this and resist Cena's bulls*** for a few weeks more.
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Post by lookout on Aug 27, 2014 11:20:07 GMT -5
I have a question about fan's attitude to Cena. Every criticism of him is in his booking. It's CREATIVE's fault. How come HBK, HHH, Hogan, Nash and 20+ more wrestlers were criticised throughout their careers (often correctly) for using their own influence to bury others and keep themselves on top, whereas Cena is percieved as not doing this? Exactly what I said earlier and you are 100% right. It's far past time for people to stop trying to blame the writers or mcmahon. Does anyone really believe cena would have been forced to destroy the wyatts if he didn't agree to it? Of course he wouldn't. Cena obviously signed on to burying the wyatts for the sake of putting himself over....again.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
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Post by segaz on Aug 27, 2014 16:37:58 GMT -5
The biggest problem here is that, by having Cena already back on screen and dominating another wrestler so soon after his dismantling at the hands of Lesnar, the WWE has already blown one of its all time potential biggest moments. Unless I'm completely blanking on it, there has never been a "face of the WWF/E" in its history so thoroughly torn apart by such a legitimatized heel opponent. Not Bruno, not Backlund, not Hogan, not Bret or Shawn or Diesel, not Austin or Rock, etc. In pure storytelling terms, this is a cataclysmic level event in the fictional world of WWF/E; as said so often before, this is Superman dying at the hands of Doomsday, only this time Doomsday didn't just also survive the battle, he completely thrashed Superman and humiliated him in the process. Storytelling 101 says that this should shake the very foundation of the company, and should be followed by major consequences. It doesn't mean that Cena can't eventually show back up, can't rebuild himself in some way, but there has to be some sort of impact on him, along with just about everybody else. You can't blow this: you've gone 60+ years without an angle like this available to you, now you finally have it due to the convergence of a guy who's been on top of the company for 10+ years and a guy who was first built as an unstoppable beast in WWF, and then won the biggest title in a legitimate combat sports league. This is your chance to do this angle and have people buy it 100%; nobody can deny it being a big moment. None of this is to say that Cena has to go emo or completely broken in spirit, but for some reason we're letting this thread get bogged down in strawman arguments instead of acknowledging that a hero can go through changes, crises, and moments of vulnerability without having to go all late 80s/early 90s "grimdark" in their overall characterization. Exactly my point, more eloquently made. But hossfan and others won't respond to this because it destroys all their logic. This is NOT REAL WORLD SPORTS. This is pro wrestling. even in Rocky 3, Rocky went through SOME development before returning to beat Clubber Lang. His trainer passed away. Not only that, but BEFORE Clubber Lang he showed development of getting way too confident and after the fight he didn't pop back up next week wanting a match the very next month. No one is saying Cena can't rise back up at Wrestlemani.a But because this is the first time he has been dominated, or ANYONE Has been dominated in this way, the story practically demands some acknowledgement of this. Again, in real life, the opposing team or man sometimes doesn't show any fear or admit any weaknesses, sure. Just gets back up. This is entertainment, as the WWE so likes to remind us. As viewers we expect to be able to SEE the development of the story and of the hero in particular, not have to kind of wonder and fill in the blanks. In a movie or TV Series, writers understand this, and write their shows as such. Man, this is pathetic. Did Cena/Punk at MitB 11 NEED to show that contract signing? Not really, not at all. But it helped and furthered the depth of the story being told to show it as such, it revealed more of Punk's character, and of Vince, and even of Cena himself there.
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Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
Posts: 35,163
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Post by Jiren on Aug 27, 2014 17:28:57 GMT -5
Put out? You sure you and Catch/Us haven't switched gimmicks? I don't want to switch gimmicks with mrjl. Yeah that was a cruel thing to say
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 27, 2014 17:34:44 GMT -5
Joseph Campbell wasted his time researching the various stages of the Hero's Journey monomyth
Apparently it's far simpler than that. WWE have figured it out. They've found the correct formula
1- Hero faces enemy 2- Enemy rips him a new asshole 3- Hero comes back just over a week later demonstrating no lasting effects, any lessons learned, and is back to his default self destroying enemies who just months previously were supposedly seriously challengers, thus making those challengers look like dicks and removing any dramatic tension from the upcoming confrontation with the same enemy who defeated him so brutally.
My god, it's all so clear now. All those writers and filmmakers who spent time crafting compelling stories were fools.
David Kapoor and Vince McMahon have discovered how it's supposed to be done!
Oh wait, this is just like real sport, and Cena never quits. He's an underdog, so this all makes sense.
Just like Randall Tex Cobb. He got beat a little bit. Nothing too bad. A week later he showed up as confident as shit and challenged Larry Holmes again!
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 27, 2014 18:48:55 GMT -5
That's the other thing: the "real sport" parallel doesn't work, either.
In a team sport like baseball/hockey/football/basketball, a team can get absolutely thrashed, but have nobody injured in the process. You can lose 7-0 in hockey, but have your entire team skate off the ice in perfectly fine physical shape, even if some guys took some hits along the boards during the game.
Pro wrestling isn't a team sport, so your closest parallel is a combat sport, where the entire point is that you're using pain, or the threat of pain, to defeat your opponent.
What Lesnar did to Cena was the equivalent of a boxing champ getting knocked loopy five seconds into a match, then continuing to pound him for another three or four rounds because the stubborn bastard just wouldn't stay down. No boxer walks away from a thrashing like that feeling 100%; he/she'll need months to recover, at a minimum, because getting hit in the head repeatedly screws you up.
Wrestling is where legitimate sports presentation and fictional, hype-building storytelling is meant to intersect; what they did with Cena was a failure on both fronts.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 27, 2014 19:33:40 GMT -5
Joseph Campbell wasted his time researching the various stages of the Hero's Journey monomyth Apparently it's far simpler than that. WWE have figured it out. They've found the correct formula 1- Hero faces enemy 2- Enemy rips him a new asshole 3- Hero comes back just over a week later demonstrating no lasting effects, any lessons learned, and is back to his default self destroying enemies who just months previously were supposedly seriously challengers, thus making those challengers look like dicks and removing any dramatic tension from the upcoming confrontation with the same enemy who defeated him so brutally. My god, it's all so clear now. All those writers and filmmakers who spent time crafting compelling stories were fools. David Kapoor and Vince McMahon have discovered how it's supposed to be done! Oh wait, this is just like real sport, and Cena never quits. He's an underdog, so this all makes sense. Just like Randall Tex Cobb. He got beat a little bit. Nothing too bad. A week later he showed up as confident as shit and challenged Larry Holmes again! the heroes journey ha gotten old
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 27, 2014 19:45:48 GMT -5
Joseph Campbell wasted his time researching the various stages of the Hero's Journey monomyth Apparently it's far simpler than that. WWE have figured it out. They've found the correct formula 1- Hero faces enemy 2- Enemy rips him a new asshole 3- Hero comes back just over a week later demonstrating no lasting effects, any lessons learned, and is back to his default self destroying enemies who just months previously were supposedly seriously challengers, thus making those challengers look like dicks and removing any dramatic tension from the upcoming confrontation with the same enemy who defeated him so brutally. My god, it's all so clear now. All those writers and filmmakers who spent time crafting compelling stories were fools. David Kapoor and Vince McMahon have discovered how it's supposed to be done! Oh wait, this is just like real sport, and Cena never quits. He's an underdog, so this all makes sense. Just like Randall Tex Cobb. He got beat a little bit. Nothing too bad. A week later he showed up as confident as shit and challenged Larry Holmes again! the heroes journey ha gotten old That's true. A tried and tested and proven to be successful formula which has endured for centuries and spanned multiple civilisations and periods of history has run its course. That must be why all those works of fiction like Lord of the Rings, the Hunger Games, Star Wars, Skyfall, Harry Potter, Batman etc....were all massive flops. People are sick of all that stuff. They want Cena-esque booking.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 27, 2014 19:56:12 GMT -5
That's the other thing: the "real sport" parallel doesn't work, either. In a team sport like baseball/hockey/football/basketball, a team can get absolutely thrashed, but have nobody injured in the process. You can lose 7-0 in hockey, but have your entire team skate off the ice in perfectly fine physical shape, even if some guys took some hits along the boards during the game. Pro wrestling isn't a team sport, so your closest parallel is a combat sport, where the entire point is that you're using pain, or the threat of pain, to defeat your opponent. What Lesnar did to Cena was the equivalent of a boxing champ getting knocked loopy five seconds into a match, then continuing to pound him for another three or four rounds because the stubborn bastard just wouldn't stay down. No boxer walks away from a thrashing like that feeling 100%; he/she'll need months to recover, at a minimum, because getting hit in the head repeatedly screws you up. Wrestling is where legitimate sports presentation and fictional, hype-building storytelling is meant to intersect; what they did with Cena was a failure on both fronts. how many times have wrestlers participated in hardcore matches and come out a week later none the worse for wear. Brock's fists aren't concrete.
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