Abdullah
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Abdullah on Dec 30, 2014 11:29:35 GMT -5
Y'know, I think I kinda see the logic. If they're trying to make another Bryan, then the goal is to build sympathy for Cesaro, how he's so good in the ring but held down by politics and stupid booking and an ass-backwards overfocus on "it factor." Smart internet fans are supposed to get outraged about how he's booked to lose right after pointing out how good he is; the bookers blatantly become the heels. Marks don't really know what's going on, but they do see he got cheated out of a win. The thought is, this works, next year it's fan hero Cesaro vs. Corporate Reigns. Oh, don't get me wrong: It's a stupid goddamn idea, and they're obviously underestimating many internet fans' bizarre propensity to latch onto anything to defend the WWE's stupid policies. But it does make sense as an attempt to get him over by people determined to do so (like they were with Bryan before him) while having to work with a raving old man who really does believe these dumb things. To be honest, the main roster's greatest hope is that a crowd might ironically latch onto them. Occasionally sincerely but for most jobbers ironically. That seems to save the writer's from doing much work too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2014 11:42:34 GMT -5
Dude, did you hear that Cesaro promo? It was like "Genesis of McGillicutty" but times a trillion. Cesaro flubbing up one line is NOTHING, nor is it worse than this: Three underrated moments in this promo: 1. Disappointed Kofi at :30 2. The promo starts with a 30 second pause, followed by "I don't know what to say." A sincere Michael Scott moment. 3. Cole's perfect deadpan "well that's been put on hold" at 1:25, followed by Josh Mathews cracking up.
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Post by MrElijah on Dec 30, 2014 11:49:16 GMT -5
I think we should stop all this bad mouthing of Sid. You never know when he could be near. It's okay, he's playing winter league softball in Florida right now. Sid could probably out pop 90% of the roster.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Dec 30, 2014 11:52:51 GMT -5
Just another note quickly, it was said a couple times that since he was getting beat in 3 minutes, why did he need to prove anything on the mic?
Well, sometimes you need to rally support for your cause. Sure, he's a heel, but he's a heel that has a following. Imagine the movie Braveheart when Wallace was led to the gallows, he personally didn't need to say a word, but with one word he made those last moments memorable despite the personal defeat.
So if you're going out there to job in 3 minutes AND you're given promo time, you better knock it out of the park with your promo, otherwise next time you'll have just your 3 minute job and nothing else to stand on.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 30, 2014 11:56:28 GMT -5
It's okay, he's playing winter league softball in Florida right now. Sid could probably out pop 90% of the roster. Hell, he was always over. He could show up to a People Who Know Shit And Dislike Those Who Don't Convention and get the crowd going.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 30, 2014 11:58:42 GMT -5
So if you're going out there to job in 3 minutes AND you're given promo time, you better knock it out of the park with your promo, otherwise next time you'll have just your 3 minute job and nothing else to stand on. I think lots of people have a problem with the entire "prove yourself" thing in the WWE, and so they're not even really talking about the same thing you are. Yes, if the system is stacked against you for stupid reasons, flubbing a line in a promo is bad. But the premise is the problem, not the conclusion. No matter what, though, it's definitely ass-backwards booking.
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Push R Truth on Dec 30, 2014 12:05:58 GMT -5
I kinda wish more guys would "Sid it up" out on the Mic. Would at least makes things feel a little more natural and less preplanned
Plus I'd rather laugh at a botched promo than not give a shit about a well executed one.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 30, 2014 12:06:11 GMT -5
Cesaro flubbing up one line is NOTHING, nor is it worse than this: Three underrated moments in this promo: 1. Disappointed Kofi at :30 2. The promo starts with a 30 second pause, followed by "I don't know what to say." A sincere Michael Scott moment. 3. Cole's perfect deadpan "well that's been put on hold" at 1:25, followed by Josh Mathews cracking up. And now for my traditional defense of McGillicutty: Dude had NO prep time. He didn't know he was going to give a promo at all, much less what it was about. They clearly just told him, "Go out there and do a Nexus kind of thing and make sure you say the word Genesis as often as possible and your entire career hinges on this go go go go." It isn't paranoid to even think they deliberately sabotaged him, given what happened to Kaval afterwards. They didn't want those two to be in the finals in the first place, so it's totally possible that they were taking revenge by making them both look like schmucks.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 30, 2014 12:06:49 GMT -5
This is the genesis right now of the genesis of starting this moment an accidental double post.
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wcc2
AC Slater
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Post by wcc2 on Dec 30, 2014 12:08:32 GMT -5
That promo showed the reason why Vince knows more than the fans, and why his knowledge allows him to see somewhat into the future, in terms of knowing what makes a star in the company. Firstly, there is playing to strengths, but there is also trying to make someone a massive star. I really, really like Cesaro. I really want him to be a massive star. But he's had all year to come up with something that will make him a big heel, and what does he come out with? 'I just care about the wrestling, not about you fans'. Charlie Haas tried that about 7 years ago and where did that take him? It's one thing to be a good, or even a great, wrestler. That will make you a big star in a promotion who's fans care about wrestling first and everything else second. But if you want to be a star in the WWE you've got to appeal to a broad cross section of a viewing audience. Kurt Angle was a great wrestler, but they shot him to the moon almost immediately because as well as being a great wrestler, he could portray the character of a goofball, an ass kicker, a bad ass, a comedian, etc etc. Daniel Bryan is a great wrestler. He can also portray a jerk boyfriend, a leader of a revolution, a comedian, has catchphrases etc etc. These are the things that make a top star in the WWE, not just a top star on the indies. Cesaro has talent. But he was given minutes out there to show something else, and he didn't take them. He may have to wait a little while now and be happy with his spot for that time, until his chance comes around again, because now someone else deserves it. If he knocked a promo out of the park before losing, he still would have lost. But he needs to show the decision makers why he deserves to be treated like a big star, beyond just being a good wrestler. A wrestling skill set will get you big cheers in certain cities at certain events, but a WWE star is one that can adapt to all sorts of situations. He had his minutes, and unfortunately he didn't maximise them. Vince gave him a shot, and was proved right. And I genuinely feel bad for him, but this isn't a charity, this is a business looking to make money and showcase stars to a mass audience. Cesaro isn't quite there yet. It comes down to this question: what's wrong with following a story that people want to see and tracking where it leads instead of derailing it and hoping that your pre-conceived, possibly bigoted notions are eventually proven right? WWE also says it's a TV show. If any writer wrote a story to their personal whims, they'd be criticized for it. I don't see the difference in this case. What are you talking about? Bigoted? What the hell. They want as many stars as possible. But they can't put anyone in the top positions. Cesaro did well as a great ring worker and got some good reactions for putting on good matches, and especially one in front of a crowd with a large European contingent. But he isn't a star right now. Plus, it's not as if they immediately shit-canned him after Mania anyway. He had TV minutes and he didn't use them. He needs more. If he was a Kurt Angle, or a Daniel Bryan, he'd be used higher up than he is. But he isn't. At this time, he is just a great wrestler, but people are acting like they are holding someone with the talent of Kurt Angle down in the lower mid-card. They aren't. He isn't connecting, beyond being a great wrestler. Vince was right.
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wcc2
AC Slater
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Post by wcc2 on Dec 30, 2014 12:12:27 GMT -5
So if you're going out there to job in 3 minutes AND you're given promo time, you better knock it out of the park with your promo, otherwise next time you'll have just your 3 minute job and nothing else to stand on. I think lots of people have a problem with the entire "prove yourself" thing in the WWE, and so they're not even really talking about the same thing you are. Yes, if the system is stacked against you for stupid reasons, flubbing a line in a promo is bad. But the premise is the problem, not the conclusion. No matter what, though, it's definitely ass-backwards booking. It's really not backwards. It works like this: Get promo time, but lose. Gauge the reaction, gauge the character development. Gauge his or her fulfilment of a number of criteria that makes stars. You will still lose, but if you knock it out of the park, a few weeks down the line when existing plans have worked their way through, we will find a spot on the machine to put you slightly higher up. And we go again. Same thing is happening now with Bray Wyatt, but on a larger scale. People think him losing to Cena was the burial. It wasn't, it was the proving ground. He hung with Cena, did his time and is now winning in PPV main events. You have to prove yourself to get given the opportunity to be showcased higher, and I can't understand why anyone would think it should be any other way.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 30, 2014 12:22:38 GMT -5
I think lots of people have a problem with the entire "prove yourself" thing in the WWE, and so they're not even really talking about the same thing you are. Yes, if the system is stacked against you for stupid reasons, flubbing a line in a promo is bad. But the premise is the problem, not the conclusion. No matter what, though, it's definitely ass-backwards booking. It's really not backwards. It works like this: Get promo time, but lose. Gauge the reaction, gauge the character development. Gauge his or her fulfilment of a number of criteria that makes stars. You will still lose, but if you knock it out of the park, a few weeks down the line when existing plans have worked their way through, we will find a spot on the machine to put you slightly higher up. And we go again. Same thing is happening now with Bray Wyatt, but on a larger scale. People think him losing to Cena was the burial. It wasn't, it was the proving ground. He hung with Cena, did his time and is now winning in PPV main events. You have to prove yourself to get given the opportunity to be showcased higher, and I can't understand why anyone would think it should be any other way. Yeah... but you're missing everything I said about this whole "proving yourself" thing being stupid. It's especially stupid when you deliberately make things harder for people because somehow that makes it "count" more if they do succeed. It's based around a weird obsession with there being "the guy" and with arbitrary tiers of performers. It's based around wanting to make some kind of weird real competition between wrestlers in place of the fake competition of the wrestling matches. It's ass-backwards, because the purpose is to feel like success in wrestling has some kind of legitimacy, and certainly not to put on the most entertaining show possible.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Dec 30, 2014 12:23:01 GMT -5
I think Cesaro would much rather collect these WWE checks right now. I'm not sure. The way WWE pays now, I'm wondering if the indies might be a better option like AJ Styles and Alberto Del Rio. Cesaro would make a ton of money on the indies and on a world wide scene.
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Sparkybob
King Koopa
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Post by Sparkybob on Dec 30, 2014 12:32:10 GMT -5
I think Cesaro would much rather collect these WWE checks right now. I'm not sure. The way WWE pays now, I'm wondering if the indies might be a better option like AJ Styles and Alberto Del Rio. Cesaro would make a ton of money on the indies and on a world wide scene. Cesaro working 6 out of every 7 big tv tapings while working every weekend on a house circuit with a downside guarantee salary probably will be more financially safe than going to the indies.
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Post by MrElijah on Dec 30, 2014 12:50:27 GMT -5
Sid could probably out pop 90% of the roster. Hell, he was always over. He could show up to a People Who Know Shit And Dislike Those Who Don't Convention and get the crowd going. Sid was amazing. Big time face comes out get cheers. Sid comes out: "f*** the other guy, LET'S GO SID."
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Abdullah
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Abdullah on Dec 30, 2014 13:05:22 GMT -5
It comes down to this question: what's wrong with following a story that people want to see and tracking where it leads instead of derailing it and hoping that your pre-conceived, possibly bigoted notions are eventually proven right? WWE also says it's a TV show. If any writer wrote a story to their personal whims, they'd be criticized for it. I don't see the difference in this case. What are you talking about? Bigoted? What the hell. The 'too Swiss' reasoning is a bit suspect. There's a false choice that either WWE scraps the rocket to Cesaro or he 'deserves' this and I think that's woefully missing the point.
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wcc2
AC Slater
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Post by wcc2 on Dec 30, 2014 13:39:18 GMT -5
What are you talking about? Bigoted? What the hell. The 'too Swiss' reasoning is a bit suspect. There's a false choice that either WWE scraps the rocket to Cesaro or he 'deserves' this and I think that's woefully missing the point. He was likely calling it from a language perspective, in terms of being able to portray a character confidently to the audience in a language that isn't his first. And considering how clunky the promo was, again Vince really was vindicated. Cesaro may get there in time, once he finds that hook, but he just isn't there yet. And what is the false choice? Are you saying there should be a middle ground? I'm not even saying the WWE should strap the rocket to him, or are looking for someone to strap the rocket to. At this point, for Cesaro, the progression for him is to step up into a credible mid-card heel act, kind of like where Luke Harper is right now. But where as Luke Harper demonstrated enough presence to earn some character development time, and put on great matches in order to get a focus, Cesaro hasn't got that character part down yet. Harper's achieved it in a couple of months of being a singles competitor.
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wcc2
AC Slater
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Post by wcc2 on Dec 30, 2014 13:51:06 GMT -5
It's really not backwards. It works like this: Get promo time, but lose. Gauge the reaction, gauge the character development. Gauge his or her fulfilment of a number of criteria that makes stars. You will still lose, but if you knock it out of the park, a few weeks down the line when existing plans have worked their way through, we will find a spot on the machine to put you slightly higher up. And we go again. Same thing is happening now with Bray Wyatt, but on a larger scale. People think him losing to Cena was the burial. It wasn't, it was the proving ground. He hung with Cena, did his time and is now winning in PPV main events. You have to prove yourself to get given the opportunity to be showcased higher, and I can't understand why anyone would think it should be any other way. Yeah... but you're missing everything I said about this whole "proving yourself" thing being stupid. It's especially stupid when you deliberately make things harder for people because somehow that makes it "count" more if they do succeed. It's based around a weird obsession with there being "the guy" and with arbitrary tiers of performers. It's based around wanting to make some kind of weird real competition between wrestlers in place of the fake competition of the wrestling matches. It's ass-backwards, because the purpose is to feel like success in wrestling has some kind of legitimacy, and certainly not to put on the most entertaining show possible. I'm not missing it at all, I'm directly addressing it. Being a top star, the kind of star some people think Cesaro should be in the WWE, IS hard. They ARE in competition with each other to get the best spots, and they will be rewarded for it if they do. They haven't made things deliberately harder for Cesaro at all. Any time he has minutes, he has an opportunity, whether he's losing in 3 minutes or whether he gets a ten minute promo. He did well with a promo a few weeks ago on Cena, and does well in a lot of pre-tapes, but last night he didn't do well. He also hasn't found that hook that sends him from beyond being a Charlie Haas 'I'm a wrestler and don't care about the fans' to a real bona-fide star. Mizdow found a hook from losing every week and is now a champion in the company. Shelton Benjamin never found it. It is hard, but any time you have minutes on the TV screen you have the chance to be a star. And stars in WWE are people that can appeal to the mass market that they cater to. You can't get by just being a good wrestler. Kurt Angle didn't. Daniel Bryan didn't. Right now Luke Harper isn't. Yes they have to emphasise strengths, which is what they actually do for most of the roster. But within that, to reach higher, you've got to appeal to everyone, not just the fans that care about good wrestling. You have to take crap and make it gold. Kane could have been complete rubbish, but he made it work. And not only has he made it work, he's been able to show he's a destroyer, a comedian, a boyfriend, an ass kicker a tag team friend, a corporate lackey, a horror movie star, an anger management participant. It could have been complete garbage, but he's made the most of everything he's been given and that's why he is still here. Take every single guy that ever made it in WWE and they will have all connected with the mass market WWE audience in a number of ways. Take any guy that had talent but never quite stepped up and the reason will be because they never quite found that hook that meant a mass market could 'get' their character. It is a real life competition between the talent. And as Vince said on the podcast, he can't come up with the ideas for everyone, he needs the talent to step up and take the opportunities if they want it.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 30, 2014 13:55:30 GMT -5
Yeah... but you're missing everything I said about this whole "proving yourself" thing being stupid. It's especially stupid when you deliberately make things harder for people because somehow that makes it "count" more if they do succeed. It's based around a weird obsession with there being "the guy" and with arbitrary tiers of performers. It's based around wanting to make some kind of weird real competition between wrestlers in place of the fake competition of the wrestling matches. It's ass-backwards, because the purpose is to feel like success in wrestling has some kind of legitimacy, and certainly not to put on the most entertaining show possible. I'm not missing it at all, I'm directly addressing it. Being a top star, the kind of star some people think Cesaro should be in the WWE, IS hard. They ARE in competition with each other to get the best spots, and they will be rewarded for it if they do. They haven't made things deliberately harder for Cesaro at all. Any time he has minutes, he has an opportunity, whether he's losing in 3 minutes or whether he gets a ten minute promo. He did well with a promo a few weeks ago on Cena, and does well in a lot of pre-tapes, but last night he didn't do well. He also hasn't found that hook that sends him from beyond being a Charlie Haas 'I'm a wrestler and don't care about the fans' to a real bona-fide star. Mizdow found a hook from losing every week and is now a champion in the company. Shelton Benjamin never found it. It is hard, but any time you have minutes on the TV screen you have the chance to be a star. And stars in WWE are people that can appeal to the mass market that they cater to. You can't get by just being a good wrestler. Kurt Angle didn't. Daniel Bryan didn't. Right now Luke Harper isn't. Yes they have to emphasise strengths, which is what they actually do for most of the roster. But within that, to reach higher, you've got to appeal to everyone, not just the fans that care about good wrestling. You have to take crap and make it gold. Kane could have been complete rubbish, but he made it work. And not only has he made it work, he's been able to show he's a destroyer, a comedian, a boyfriend, an ass kicker a tag team friend, a corporate lackey, a horror movie star, an anger management participant. It could have been complete garbage, but he's made the most of everything he's been given and that's why he is still here. Take every single guy that ever made it in WWE and they will have all connected with the mass market WWE audience in a number of ways. Take any guy that had talent but never quite stepped up and the reason will be because they never quite found that hook that meant a mass market could 'get' their character. It is a real life competition between the talent. And as Vince said on the podcast, he can't come up with the ideas for everyone, he needs the talent to step up and take the opportunities if they want it. Not everybody gets to be a star, but that doesn't mean everyone who isn't a star should be actively made to look incompetent. And yes, Daniel Bryan is over because he's a good wrestler. He's the "leader of a revolution" because he's a good wrestler and fans wanted to see a good wrestler be rewarded for his ability. Cesaro deserves the same. Maybe not a big push on Bryan's level, but he should definitely be better off than he is.
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Ben Wyatt
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I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Dec 30, 2014 14:00:20 GMT -5
Last night's promo aside, it baffles me just how badly his stock has fallen in the last 8 months.
Like, he's the biggest example of how NOT to book someone that I've seen come along in ages
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