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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2015 18:59:15 GMT -5
Someone brought up (might have been Russo of all people) that the chicken shit heel is the worst character in all wrestling. Why is he even in the wrestling business if he's so afraid of defending his title? It's so stupid. I think it can work, it just needs to be done right. If it's a guy who has the skill to get to the top on his own but once he's there has no interest in gambling when his title's on the line, fine. If it's someone who can't win a fight to save his life and is deathly afraid of having to try like Rollins, that's just terrible.
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Emmet Russell
King Koopa
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Posts: 12,526
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Post by Emmet Russell on Sept 26, 2015 19:55:49 GMT -5
Someone brought up (might have been Russo of all people) that the chicken shit heel is the worst character in all wrestling. Why is he even in the wrestling business if he's so afraid of defending his title? It's so stupid. I think it can work, it just needs to be done right. If it's a guy who has the skill to get to the top on his own but once he's there has no interest in gambling when his title's on the line, fine. If it's someone who can't win a fight to save his life and is deathly afraid of having to try like Rollins, that's just terrible. It worked for guys like Flair because he was always confident in his abilities heading into a match, he only showed cowardice during the match when he realised his opponent was getting the better of him.
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,306
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Post by Woo on Sept 26, 2015 19:58:29 GMT -5
I'm not really sure Ziggler is a "build the company around him" level babyface. Cesaro much the same way. Excellent wrestler but not anyone I'd build the company around or push as a #1 babyface. Doesn't mean he should be buried either though. Ambrose is a different story. I think he had the potential to be a bigger deal anti hero babyface, but WWE just won't pull the trigger. It's like they're in denial about this Reigns thing. At this point I might even be interested in a different kind of heel champion. Let's say they push Bray Wyatt to the top. At least he isn't the same tedious corporate Authority heel. I like Kevin Owens but he's hardly top babyface material. He might be a good heel champ though. Some of this could be chalked up to NXT. I said a few months ago that while everyone was pimping NXT I saw no one on that show that felt like a serious top guy on the main roster. NXT pushed guys like Neville and Bo Dallas but does anyone think those guys are remotely serious draws on the main roster? I like Sami Zayn, but he's not likely to be a top star in WWE. Therein lies what will be the ultimate failure of NXT, namely to do what it's supposed to do and create a series of new stars for the main roster. NXT can succeed in signing indie darlings or in being an alternative to WWE, but at the end of the day the name of the game is to make the main roster and succeed, and frankly NXT doesn't really focus on that. NXT isn't failing, the Raw writers are. If you can't make Sami Zayn, Adrian Neville, Cesaro or Kevin Owens the face of your company you should be sacked instantly.
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Dean-o
Grimlock
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Posts: 13,865
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Post by Dean-o on Sept 26, 2015 20:00:29 GMT -5
Someone brought up (might have been Russo of all people) that the chicken shit heel is the worst character in all wrestling. Why is he even in the wrestling business if he's so afraid of defending his title? It's so stupid. I think it can work, it just needs to be done right. If it's a guy who has the skill to get to the top on his own but once he's there has no interest in gambling when his title's on the line, fine. If it's someone who can't win a fight to save his life and is deathly afraid of having to try like Rollins, that's just terrible. Not only afraid to try, but he's been beat left and right lately on TV by the likes of Cena, Ambrose, and Ryback...none of the above seem to care enough to want a title shot. What a burial of the World Championship and it's holder.
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Post by Grand Papillon "The Banker" on Sept 26, 2015 20:18:25 GMT -5
Vince is getting what he deserves
If you are a restaurant and you decide to start cutting corners and start serving shitty food, you lose business.
If you are a sports franchise and you opt to let players walk from your team as free agents and not replace them, you lose games.
When quality dips, you lose customers. It isn't hard to figure out. For every easily influenced sheep that let's booking affect their opinion of a wrestler (Ziggler) there are others that just decide to walk away from the product. The fans have tried to let the company know who they are interested in seeing and yet people like Cesaro do jobs to people like Big Show. Vince McMahon has failed in business more often than he has succeeded. He isn't some creative genius. He is a mentally ill eccentric who had a few good breaks and a family legacy he exploited.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Sept 26, 2015 22:14:02 GMT -5
I think it can work, it just needs to be done right. If it's a guy who has the skill to get to the top on his own but once he's there has no interest in gambling when his title's on the line, fine. If it's someone who can't win a fight to save his life and is deathly afraid of having to try like Rollins, that's just terrible. Not only afraid to try, but he's been beat left and right lately on TV by the likes of Cena, Ambrose, and Ryback...none of the above seem to care enough to want a title shot. What a burial of the World Championship and it's holder. No one wants Cena in the title picture and WWE doesn't want to put Cena in the title picture because they want to maintain the facade that they're building new stars. However they aren't ready to pull the trigger on anyone else.
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Post by cabbageboy on Sept 26, 2015 22:29:27 GMT -5
At what time in history would Kevin Owens be the face of WWE? Even in the 1970s, a time more generous to someone of his particular look, he would have been a cycled in and out challenger that jobbed to Sammartino. There's a difference between someone that can be a quality journeyman and someone who is the unquestioned star of the company. Even in the 1990s, a time where smaller and non roided up guys got a push, guys like Zayn or Neville would have been far too small to ever get anywhere in WWE. Daniel Bryan is the one smaller guy that convincingly wrestled big men, mainly because his ring style is so ferocious and hard hitting that it seems viable. But at the end of the day, I'm not sure I'd really build my entire company around Bryan either.
Besides, that is missing the point of my NXT critique. The point I was making is that by trying to be this alternative product to WWE, NXT is not really providing the main WWE roster with guys Vince will have any serious desire to push. Say what you want about OVW, but at least for a while OVW produced some actual WWE main event level guys. Who in NXT right now will have any serious chance on the main roster? When "Baron Corbin" is the answer, you see the problem.
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Reflecto
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The Sorceress' Knight
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Post by Reflecto on Sept 27, 2015 0:05:09 GMT -5
Besides, that is missing the point of my NXT critique. The point I was making is that by trying to be this alternative product to WWE, NXT is not really providing the main WWE roster with guys Vince will have any serious desire to push. Say what you want about OVW, but at least for a while OVW produced some actual WWE main event level guys. Who in NXT right now will have any serious chance on the main roster? When "Baron Corbin" is the answer, you see the problem. But that also ties into the other issue with the "NXT vs. WWE critique as well- using the earlier problem of the WWE product being bad and losing customers and ties to the real issue: Pro wrestling on television is, and always HAS BEEN, an infomercial. In the earliest days, pro wrestling was an infomercial to get people to the live events, then it became a commercial to get you to buy the Pay-Per-View events. Now, WWE programming is an infomercial to get you to buy the WWE Network. That IS what the new normal is, and it won't change. This is an important view, because as the ratings for Raw and Smackdown drop, the subscriptions to the WWE Network have been increasing steadily, and NXT keeps getting hotter and hotter by the week to become a major part of the WWE Network's success...and there, the problem with WWE programming being weak becomes clear. Raw and Smackdown just have to be good enough to keep young kids interested (and young kids do not care about quality as much as seeing their heroes succeed), while expecting fans who DO care about quality will thus pay money to subscribe to the WWE Network, just to see a GOOD wrestling promotion in NXT each week instead.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,133
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Sept 27, 2015 2:31:46 GMT -5
If they don't change soon, I'm going to fly to Greenwich purely for the express purpose of throwing up on Vince's head. SHE'S GONNA PUKE! SHE'S GONNA PUKE!!!!
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Post by Big Bad Kahuna on Sept 27, 2015 2:52:15 GMT -5
I'm not really sure Ziggler is a "build the company around him" level babyface. Cesaro much the same way. Excellent wrestler but not anyone I'd build the company around or push as a #1 babyface. Doesn't mean he should be buried either though. Ambrose is a different story. I think he had the potential to be a bigger deal anti hero babyface, but WWE just won't pull the trigger. It's like they're in denial about this Reigns thing. At this point I might even be interested in a different kind of heel champion. Let's say they push Bray Wyatt to the top. At least he isn't the same tedious corporate Authority heel. I like Kevin Owens but he's hardly top babyface material. He might be a good heel champ though. Some of this could be chalked up to NXT. I said a few months ago that while everyone was pimping NXT I saw no one on that show that felt like a serious top guy on the main roster. NXT pushed guys like Neville and Bo Dallas but does anyone think those guys are remotely serious draws on the main roster? I like Sami Zayn, but he's not likely to be a top star in WWE. Therein lies what will be the ultimate failure of NXT, namely to do what it's supposed to do and create a series of new stars for the main roster. NXT can succeed in signing indie darlings or in being an alternative to WWE, but at the end of the day the name of the game is to make the main roster and succeed, and frankly NXT doesn't really focus on that. Totally disagree and do not see your point at all I can EASILY see Sami and Balor as main event faces with a huge following (let's say Jeff Hardy circa 2008). They got all the tools (might need some work on Balor's mic work and character nuances) and can go far with the machine behind them. They could become bigger than Punk and Bryan if handled right Oh and Vince WILL BE FORCED to push new guys very very soon, when Cena or/and Orton get injured/need a break. And he will realize (see Punk and Bryan situations) who has to get the rocket push and that he will fail with his usual solutions
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,133
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Sept 27, 2015 2:58:16 GMT -5
I'm not really sure Ziggler is a "build the company around him" level babyface. Cesaro much the same way. Excellent wrestler but not anyone I'd build the company around or push as a #1 babyface. Doesn't mean he should be buried either though. Ambrose is a different story. I think he had the potential to be a bigger deal anti hero babyface, but WWE just won't pull the trigger. It's like they're in denial about this Reigns thing. At this point I might even be interested in a different kind of heel champion. Let's say they push Bray Wyatt to the top. At least he isn't the same tedious corporate Authority heel. I like Kevin Owens but he's hardly top babyface material. He might be a good heel champ though. Some of this could be chalked up to NXT. I said a few months ago that while everyone was pimping NXT I saw no one on that show that felt like a serious top guy on the main roster. NXT pushed guys like Neville and Bo Dallas but does anyone think those guys are remotely serious draws on the main roster? I like Sami Zayn, but he's not likely to be a top star in WWE. Therein lies what will be the ultimate failure of NXT, namely to do what it's supposed to do and create a series of new stars for the main roster. NXT can succeed in signing indie darlings or in being an alternative to WWE, but at the end of the day the name of the game is to make the main roster and succeed, and frankly NXT doesn't really focus on that. Totally disagree and do not see your point at all I can EASILY see Sami and Balor as main event faces with a huge following (let's say Jeff Hardy circa 2008). They got all the tools (might need some work on Balor's mic work and character nuances) and can go far with the machine behind them. They could become bigger than Punk and Bryan if handled right Oh and Vince WILL BE FORCED to push new guys very very soon, when Cena or/and Orton get injured/need a break. And he will realize (see Punk and Bryan situations) who has to get the rocket push and that he will fail with his usual solutions I'd say Sami's the most natural, likeable babyface since Daniel Bryan, except less banged up so they could actually use him once he's back.
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,306
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Post by Woo on Sept 27, 2015 3:34:42 GMT -5
At what time in history would Kevin Owens be the face of WWE? Even in the 1970s, a time more generous to someone of his particular look, he would have been a cycled in and out challenger that jobbed to Sammartino. There's a difference between someone that can be a quality journeyman and someone who is the unquestioned star of the company. Even in the 1990s, a time where smaller and non roided up guys got a push, guys like Zayn or Neville would have been far too small to ever get anywhere in WWE. Daniel Bryan is the one smaller guy that convincingly wrestled big men, mainly because his ring style is so ferocious and hard hitting that it seems viable. But at the end of the day, I'm not sure I'd really build my entire company around Bryan either. Besides, that is missing the point of my NXT critique. The point I was making is that by trying to be this alternative product to WWE, NXT is not really providing the main WWE roster with guys Vince will have any serious desire to push. Say what you want about OVW, but at least for a while OVW produced some actual WWE main event level guys. Who in NXT right now will have any serious chance on the main roster? When "Baron Corbin" is the answer, you see the problem. Daniel Bryan, Mick Foley, Dusty Rhodes, Jeff Hardy, CM Punk, Rey Mysterio. All of them were likely writting off by Vince at one time as not being stars and each would have proved him wrong. The fans will accept anybody as a main eventer and star if a) they are good enough and b) if they are booked well. NXT IS providing Vince with tons of people who can be stars, but McMahon is so out of touch he doesn't know it. It's been said before that you could have 84 Hogan, 97 Austin, the Rock, Kurt Angle and Bruno on the roster and Vince would still claim there were no stars in the company as he's lost it. Thier refusal to push Daniel Bryan despite every arena in the country telling the WWE that he was the guy they wanted as champion shows this better than ever.
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Madagascar Fred
El Dandy
TAFKA roidzilla and SUFFERIN' SUCCOTASH SON!
Posts: 8,784
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Post by Madagascar Fred on Sept 27, 2015 5:30:07 GMT -5
At what time in history would Kevin Owens be the face of WWE? Even in the 1970s, a time more generous to someone of his particular look, he would have been a cycled in and out challenger that jobbed to Sammartino. There's a difference between someone that can be a quality journeyman and someone who is the unquestioned star of the company. Even in the 1990s, a time where smaller and non roided up guys got a push, guys like Zayn or Neville would have been far too small to ever get anywhere in WWE. Daniel Bryan is the one smaller guy that convincingly wrestled big men, mainly because his ring style is so ferocious and hard hitting that it seems viable. But at the end of the day, I'm not sure I'd really build my entire company around Bryan either. Besides, that is missing the point of my NXT critique. The point I was making is that by trying to be this alternative product to WWE, NXT is not really providing the main WWE roster with guys Vince will have any serious desire to push. Say what you want about OVW, but at least for a while OVW produced some actual WWE main event level guys. Who in NXT right now will have any serious chance on the main roster? When "Baron Corbin" is the answer, you see the problem. Daniel Bryan, Mick Foley, Dusty Rhodes, Jeff Hardy, CM Punk, Rey Mysterio. All of them were likely writting off by Vince at one time as not being stars and each would have proved him wrong. The fans will accept anybody as a main eventer and star if a) they are good enough and b) if they are booked well. NXT IS providing Vince with tons of people who can be stars, but McMahon is so out of touch he doesn't know it. It's been said before that you could have 84 Hogan, 97 Austin, the Rock, Kurt Angle and Bruno on the roster and Vince would still claim there were no stars in the company as he's lost it. Thier refusal to push Daniel Bryan despite every arena in the country telling the WWE that he was the guy they wanted as champion shows this better than ever. Come to think of it, cabbageboy sounds just like Vince in this thread!!! Hostile takeover on FAN planned???
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Post by Surfer Sandman on Sept 27, 2015 7:28:11 GMT -5
finally killing The Authority would help I'd mark if they were able to somehow get Bischoff involved in taking down the Authority. Just have Bischoff reference the infamous firing back in 2005 and say that he's not sure that he wants to sit back and watch the Authority destroy RAW. Remember, RAW was his baby from 2002-2005. Just a thought.
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Post by g1megatronfan on Sept 27, 2015 8:51:26 GMT -5
Getting the belt off HHH Jr. would be a step in the right direction. How often does Raw open with (A) a 25 minute Seth Rollins promo or (B) a 25 minute Authority promo? Rollins isn't working as champion and you think they would realized that by now. It's not his fault, but the stubborn powers that be in the company's instead. That and the Authority storyline is just dreadful. It's just an excuse for more TV time so HHH can ramble on and try to remain relevant each and every week. The 3 hr format is painful to sit through as well. Raw starts at 8:00pm and by 9:30 I'm already exhausted...by 10:00 I'm flipping channels and by 10:30 I'm dozing off during the final 30 minutes. It's just too long for what they have to offer each week.
Out of a 3 hr Raw each week...you might have 1 good match and maybe 1 good segment you will remember all week. The rest is forgettable. Chances are you will have probably forgot what happened on Raw by Tuesday morning. They need to go back to 2 hrs for Raw in the worst way. Maybe if they did all this...ratings would improve but then again maybe not.
The whole show is beyond stale. They need to do something though.
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wisdomwizard
King Koopa
Too Salty
Watching you.
Posts: 11,087
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Post by wisdomwizard on Sept 27, 2015 9:15:56 GMT -5
I agree with those who said they need to bring jobbers back in. Aside from helping to cut down on the frequent rematches, having enough of them can also allow some of the roster to have breaks. In fact, all of them shouldn't have to wrestle every Monday and Tuesday. Just have them cut a promo to boost up their feuds.
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Bang Bang Bart
Ozymandius
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Sept 27, 2015 9:29:16 GMT -5
finally killing The Authority would help I'd mark if they were able to somehow get Bischoff involved in taking down the Authority. Just have Bischoff reference the infamous firing back in 2005 and say that he's not sure that he wants to sit back and watch the Authority destroy RAW. Remember, RAW was his baby from 2002-2005. Just a thought. as long as it doesn't lead to Bisch being the evil boss again, since it would just be back to square one. If they're gonna get rid of the Authority, they damn well better make sure that we just don't get yet another derivative of the tired "evil authority figure" trope in their stead.
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The Heenan Family
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Post by The Heenan Family on Sept 27, 2015 10:03:29 GMT -5
I would love for them to go back to the days of Jack Tunney and Willie Gilzenberg. Stop relying on evil authority figures making matches on the fly because something developed early on in the show. Just advertise next weeks main event and let the scheming reside in colorful managers. It could even help mask a cowardly heel wrestler if it's their manager making the business/match decisions.
Sadly though I don't see that happening so long as HHH and Steph are around. Steph is in charge of creative, their segments do not hurt the ratings, and the two of them likely receive some fat checks for their on air roles just like the other talent.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Sept 27, 2015 10:15:31 GMT -5
Too much focus on getting the face of the WWE. Nobody would have said Steve Austin if you grew up watching in the 80s and early 90s.
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Sept 27, 2015 10:49:51 GMT -5
Bring Rollins back to the murderous Architect he was before he won the belt. The angle itself seems to be implying that's what HHH and Steph are trying to do anyway. I don't mean just have him be smart, I mean bring back the Curb Stomp as something like the Punt was. Have the commentators mention how it was banned for being a danger but the Authority's favor allowed him to use it again. Then have him become such a sadist he's even out of their control.
Bring up someone either from the midcard or NXT to be the one to topple him.
I'll say Balor purely because that way you can actually have him lose once, then go all "to slay a monster I must become a monster" and that's how we introduce the Demon. Also at the same time, give Demon mode Balor a more violent moveset. You could even use such a storyline to explain why Balor doesn't just be the Demon all the time by pointing out that he doesn't want to turn into Rollins
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