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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Jun 3, 2017 8:16:22 GMT -5
Episode III: Anakin carries out a massacre of children based solely on the fact that a Sith who has been deceiving the entire galaxy since Anakin was a child vaguely tells him he can save his wife from dying which he saw in a dream, even though his only evidence to support his belief in such an event occuring was another dream about his mother who also died on a dangerous slaveholding planet ruled by criminal gangs which George Lucas provided no satisfactory explanation for why she was still living on said planet ten years after her son saved a wealthy planet whose queen he married and would have certainly had the resources to buy her freedom from a CGI elephant with wings. I assume it was a scene cut from the movie but in the novelisation there's a flashback scene where Anakin sees a dead star which frightens him and builds up to his biggest fear of losing people he cares about like he Obi-Wan, Padme and Palpatine which is the opening Palpatine used to manipulate him. Plus it was Palpatine, it's not like he was just some random guy. Palpatine was a father-figure to Anakin, someone who he trusted. There were other factors too, not just saving Padme but Palpatine putting doubts in Anakin's mind about the Jedi Order and that they want to grab power for themselves and Anakin's own personal feelings for Palpatine and so doesn't want to see Palpatine die and, not sure if it's in the movie (been a while since I've seen it), but in the novel I think Mace promises that he's just going to apprehend Palpatine and not kill him. Palpatine is a father figure, similar to Obi-Wan. If Anakin saw Mace Windu about to kill Obi-Wan his reaction would be the same, stop him. When Anakin sees Mace about to kill Palpatine it looks like Palpatine is right all along. The Jedi are looking to grab power, are trying to assassinate him, a man he sees as a sort of father about to die and Anakin believes if Palpatine dies, so does his secrets about saving Padme. As for Shmi still been a slave. I thought that was pretty well covered by the fact Jedi are taken from their parents to be trained at a young age so they don't develop any emotional attachments since they're a weakness can be exploited. It's why Yoda doesn't want Anakin trained initially. He's too old and already emotionally attached to his mother which has already started developing fear and anger in him. It would be out of sorts to break tradition and free Shmi given they don't want Anakin to form emotional bonds with others. Righgtly so it turns out since it was his love for Padme which led to him turning. As for Padme not freeing Shmi, she didn't see Anakin for like what, 10 years? By the time they meet again Anakin is a full Jedi who only starts to think and worry for his mother after his visions of her dying.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 3, 2017 8:26:17 GMT -5
Eh, I really don't think there's anything in the prequels to indicate that Anakin sees Palpatine as a father figure. They basically never interact until Episode 3.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Jun 3, 2017 8:42:19 GMT -5
The only motive Lucas lazily provided for the Seperatists is that they wanted to seperate. Why? Something half-assed about bureaucracy, taxation, trade laws etc....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz. I agree though, it's a 100% rehash of the first film, but that may have been necessary. TFA is pretty much a disguised reboot. It's also mentioned that the Republic is weak (which considering they couldn't even handle Naboo been invaded by the Trade Federation, is a fair point) and Dooku tries to recruit Obi-Wan by saying he's with the separatists because the Republic is under the influence of the Sith. It can be assumed he's used that line to recruit others too, and again is correct. The Republic is influenced by the Sith, it's just that Dooku himself is a Sith lord as well. I think their motivation is fine. The greedy corporations want to pay less tax and get better trade deals and so side with Dooku, other planets and systems but his "the Republic is weak and the Republic is controlled by the Sith" claims. True, but it wasn't their main ideal/image. The religion and Ren worshipping Vader is second fiddle to the fact their space Nazis. If they were pure religious extremists then that scene where General Hux gives a speech surrounded by Nazi type imagery would instead have had religious style imagery like, I dunno... a huge statue of Vader or flags with Vader's mask on instead and religious garb rather than military uniforms. Nazis are way overdone as villains. Agreed about her origins, if it turns out she's already trained but has had her memories blocked then that's fair enough. Disagree with the 2nd part. Many other protagonists do have weaknesses and aren't perfect in every way. Harry Potter is powerful at Defence Against the Dark Arts but ranges from good (charms) to average (Transifuration) to and terrible in other forms of magic. Plus he has personality flaws like been too reckless (rushing to the Ministry to save Sirius), making idiotic decisions (flying the car to school rather than sending an owl, not using the mirror to contact Sirius, going to Godric's Hollow and nearly getting killed) and having a hero complex (which is exploited by Voldemort). He also relies heavily on Ron and Hermione to survive. If he did things by himself he wouldn't have made it past McGonnagal's chess set. Luke is reckless, doesn't listen and has a darkness/anger in him which nearly gets him turned and other than been a good pilot isn't particularly skilled at other things. He's OK with a blaster but not great (he doesn't one shot kill a bunch of Stormtroopers, I think his kill count is 2 in the first movie and even that takes a whole tonne of shots to pull off). Again he relies heavily on others. He wouldn't have survived the Death Star without Obi-Wan, Chewie, Leia and Han. He wouldn't have made the Death Star shot without Obi-Wan guiding him and Han covering him. Frodo is strong-willed, brave and resilient but skill-wise there's not much he can do. He's not a great warrior and relies heavily on the Fellowship early on and later, Sam and Smeagol to get to Mount Doom. What are Rey's weaknesses? She has none skill-wise. Everything she is shown to attempt, she masters. Mechanics, flying, using a blaster, duelling, using the force. Personality wise, maybe her naivety? But that doesn't factor too much into the story. Did she ever really need her friends to bail her out? Finn goes to rescue her on Jakku but she handles herself well and she's already well on her way to escaping the Starkiller before Han and Finn arrive. [/quote]
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Jun 3, 2017 8:49:40 GMT -5
Eh, I really don't think there's anything in the prequels to indicate that Anakin sees Palpatine as a father figure. They basically never interact until Episode 3. It's not shown as much as it should have been but it's hinted at. There's a scene where Anakin thanks Palpatine for his guidance over the years and Palpatine tells Anakin he's the most gifted Jedi he's met. The novel handles their relationship much better making it clear that Palpatine has been more of a second mentor to Anakin.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jun 3, 2017 9:11:21 GMT -5
Eh, I really don't think there's anything in the prequels to indicate that Anakin sees Palpatine as a father figure. They basically never interact until Episode 3. It's not shown as much as it should have been but it's hinted at. There's a scene where Anakin thanks Palpatine for his guidance over the years and Palpatine tells Anakin he's the most gifted Jedi he's met. The novel handles their relationship much better making it clear that Palpatine has been more of a second mentor to Anakin. To be honest, both of Anakin's father-figure/mentor relationships throughout the trilogy are handled poorly. We're supposed to believe that Palpatine means that much to him, but they don't have any on-screen relationship until the third movie. We're supposed to believe he and Obi-Wan are as close as family, but Obi-Wan is almost disdainful of Anakin in Episode I, Anakin spends most of Episode II bitching about Obi-Wan, and in Episode III Anakin's constantly at odds with him.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jun 3, 2017 9:13:32 GMT -5
It's not shown as much as it should have been but it's hinted at. There's a scene where Anakin thanks Palpatine for his guidance over the years and Palpatine tells Anakin he's the most gifted Jedi he's met. The novel handles their relationship much better making it clear that Palpatine has been more of a second mentor to Anakin. To be honest, both of Anakin's father-figure/mentor relationships throughout the trilogy are handled poorly. We're supposed to believe that Palpatine means that much to him, but they don't have any on-screen relationship until the third movie. We're supposed to believe he and Obi-Wan are as close as family, but Obi-Wan is almost disdainful of Anakin in Episode I, Anakin spends most of Episode II bitching about Obi-Wan, and in Episode III Anakin's constantly at odds with him. I dunno sounds like my relationship with my brother
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jun 3, 2017 10:34:33 GMT -5
To be honest, both of Anakin's father-figure/mentor relationships throughout the trilogy are handled poorly. We're supposed to believe that Palpatine means that much to him, but they don't have any on-screen relationship until the third movie. We're supposed to believe he and Obi-Wan are as close as family, but Obi-Wan is almost disdainful of Anakin in Episode I, Anakin spends most of Episode II bitching about Obi-Wan, and in Episode III Anakin's constantly at odds with him. I dunno sounds like my relationship with my brother Mine too, to be honest, but I'm struggling to think of a single moment in any of the three movies where Obi-Wan and Anakin display anything beyond a superficial liking of each other. They're more like work colleagues than this supposed great friendship.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jun 3, 2017 10:48:47 GMT -5
Palpatine was never shown to be a father figure to Anakin. The relationship between Palpatine and Anakin was essential to the plot of the prequels. Lucas simply did not give it the attention it needed. A few scenes here and there where the thick-as-pigshit Anakin praises the obviously evil Palpatine just didn't suffice to establish that Anakin was so loyal to Palpatine he'd be willing to turn on the Jedi, murder children and embrace a fascist dictatorship.
Freeing his mother and perhaps moving her to a safer planet wouldn't have significantly undermined his Jedi training. If anything it would have helped by giving him the peace of mind he needed. The issue of Anakin's training is also a plothole. They initially oppose his training, then inexplicably approve of it, despite Yoda (their most senior, powerful and respected leader) having grave misgivings about it. It makes no sense at all for them to suddenly change their minds for no reason.
It really isn't. He pretty much turned to the Dark Side in Episode II when he murdered Sand People after they...killed his mother (again that would not have happened had they simply moved her from the planet). That happened before he even married Padme.
Padme was aware of Shmi's situation in Episode I. She had dinner at Shmi's slave house. As monarch of an obviously wealthy planet living in a spectacular palace, it would not have been unreasonable for her and the Naboo government to free Shmi as a token of appreciation for Anakin saving their planet. She also had ten years as a senator to take some sort of action, but evidently didn't. Now since the whole issue of his mother was supposedly crucial to Anakin's fall to the Dark Side, Lucas HAD to address why she was still on such a dangerous planet, but he never did. It's either lazy writing from a man more concerned with special effects rather than his screenplay, or bewilderingly, it somehow slipped his mind.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Jun 3, 2017 10:56:41 GMT -5
And if I have to go around reading novelizations and expanded universe theories, then a movie has failed to tell its story well.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jun 3, 2017 11:02:39 GMT -5
If the Republic is weak to begin with and completely ineffectual it makes it harder to sympathise with it's downfall. One could simply argue that the Star Wars galaxy is simply dysfunctional and it moved not from a glorious Republic of peace and justice to an evil Empire of tyranny and oppression, but rather from one shitty government to another, which undermines the "we must restore the Republic" narrative in the original trilogy. Restore what? A corrupt bureaucracy which is easily corrupted and subverted? Hardly a cause to rally behind.
Even if that's true, tax and trade is simply not a storyline that Lucas should have been writing for a space adventure based on good vs evil and mythical archetypes. It would be like Tolkien writing that Saruman teamed up with Sauron because he was upset at Middle-Earth's zoning regulations. Such a mundane, tedious, dull plotline should never have been introduced into Star Wars.
The Nazis are the greatest example of evil in human history. They will ALWAYS be an inspiration for fictional villains. In any case, the Knights of Ren could very well be the religious-type fanatics you describe. Kylo Ren himself was already seeen treating Vader's mask as a quasi-religious icon. The film does establish a rift of some sort between Hux (the Nazi) and Ren (the religious zealot). That could be developed further in VIII and IX.
Many characters in the Star Wars universe tend to be capable with a blaster and spaceship piloting. They would be useful skills to have. So Rey is not exceptional in that regard. Her capability with the Force isn't out of the ordinary in a universe where Chosen Ones and inherent knowledge of the Force has been seen before. It's almost certain they'll explain that she has blocked memories or a hidden origin which is strong with the Force. As for weaknesses, Kylo could have killed her in their first encounter when he froze her. He could have done the same when interrogating her, then could have murdered her a third time when he threw her into a tree. She had no defence in all three instances, and only gained strength when she was placed under great stress, cornered and had to focus her mind with the Force, and even that was against a wounded Kylo Ren.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Jun 3, 2017 11:11:09 GMT -5
It's not shown as much as it should have been but it's hinted at. There's a scene where Anakin thanks Palpatine for his guidance over the years and Palpatine tells Anakin he's the most gifted Jedi he's met. The novel handles their relationship much better making it clear that Palpatine has been more of a second mentor to Anakin. To be honest, both of Anakin's father-figure/mentor relationships throughout the trilogy are handled poorly. We're supposed to believe that Palpatine means that much to him, but they don't have any on-screen relationship until the third movie. We're supposed to believe he and Obi-Wan are as close as family, but Obi-Wan is almost disdainful of Anakin in Episode I, Anakin spends most of Episode II bitching about Obi-Wan, and in Episode III Anakin's constantly at odds with him. Yeah this I'll agree with. The relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan was really poorly done. Other than a few scenes (Anakin refusing to leave Obi-Wan behind after Dooku injures him, Obi-Wan saying something like "Anakin won't let me. He never has") there's very few scenes that actually make them look best friends.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Jun 3, 2017 11:31:51 GMT -5
[quote author=" Hit Girl" source="/post/13423379/thread" timestamp="1496504927Palpatine was never shown to be a father figure to Anakin. The relationship between Palpatine and Anakin was essential to the plot of the prequels. Lucas simply did not give it the attention it needed. A few scenes here and there where the thick-as-pigshit Anakin praises the obviously evil Palpatine just didn't suffice to establish that Anakin was so loyal to Palpatine he'd be willing to turn on the Jedi, murder children and embrace a fascist dictatorship. [/quote] I'll agree, it could have been handled and built up way better. Largely thanks to episode 2 been a huge waste of time. That episode should have focussed on building the relationship between Anakin & Palpatine and Anakin & Obi-Wan. Not have Anakin fart around on Naboo and Obi-Wan go swanning off after a bounty hunter. Episode 3 though dropped enough hints and scenes to show that there was a firm friendship between Palpatine and Anakin to justify him not wanting to see Palpatine get killed and trusting his word. It should have been built up in Episode 2 though as well. [/quote] Yeah, the Jedi cocked up. But it makes sense within the universe that they did cock up since they're a strict, hardcore religious order with strict teachings and rules that they don't bend or break. Qui-Gon is considered a maverick and is losing out on a spot on the council because he sometimes bend the rules and does things his way (Like bringing Anakin back for training. Yoda, Windu... any of the others would have just left him on Tatooine). In-universe, it makes sense that once Anakin has started his training they'll treat him like any other Jedi and ignore his past and background and expect him to do the same. I assumed they changed their mind because they started to realise that Qui-Gon was right and that Anakin was the chosen one from the prophecy. With the Sith been proven to have returned the risk of training him was worth the reward. The bigger problem for me was that they picked Obi-Wan to train him when it should have been Yoda himself or at least Mace Windu. Not some newly graduated Jedi even if Qui-Gon did select Obi-Wan for it. That was the start of his turn towards the darkside but even then he hadn't turned. He still refused to leave Obi-Wan behind, still turned down Palpatine until he saw Windu was going to kill him so I think it's unfair to say he turned to the darkside in Episode 2. It was his attachment to Padme and wanting to save her which led to him falling. An attachment which was put in place by Palpatine since it was he who realised Anakin cared for Padme and suggested he be the one to guard her. How many actual world leaders would bother with the personal lifes of people who have helped the country? Yeah, Anakin helped save Naboo but he wasn't the only one. Boss Nass did, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan did, Captain Panaka did, even Jar-Jar was instrumental since it was he who bought the Naboo and Gungans together. Maybe Padme should have freed Shmi, but it's not unrealistic to think once the crisis was over she moved on with running the planet whilst Anakin moved on to his Jedi training. In Episode 2 it's mentioned by Anakin that Padme barely seemed to recognise him... he's exaggerating, she was pleased to see him but I didn't get the feeling she'd thought too much since the Naboo incident about Anakin. He was just some boy she met and who helped her along with others. I don't think it's something that needed explaining since it's easy enough to connect the dots.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 3, 2017 11:46:05 GMT -5
Shmi wasn't freed by Padme and/or the Republic because Tatooine was outside of the Republic's influence. It was a Hutt world where slavery is perfectly fine. Even the Empire mostly left the Hutts alone.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jun 3, 2017 11:47:38 GMT -5
Dropping hints was not enough for such a fundamentally important relationship.
This is another problem, since the Jedi being such a rigid, stagnant and inflexible organisation is at odds with the Jedi being luminous beings whose fall was a tragedy.
Sorry, but when a guy massacres an entire village including women and children, then goes on a crazed rant about how they were nothing but animals to him, he's turned to the Dark Side. I'm sure there is nothing in the Jedi rulebook which says that you're allowed one massacre of children, but not two.
When it's an exceptional act by one person whose mother happens to be a slave and her freedom could easily be bought from the pissant slaveholder living in a junkyard, I think Padme should have fallen under this description.
The Gungans were just a decoy. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan engaged Darth Maul. But Anakin destroyed the command ship which disabled the robots and that was effectively the action that ended the battle.
If she didn't even at least offer to help his mother (which should have happened as soon as the battle of Naboo ended), then that's terrible writing from Lucas which makes Padme look even more cold-hearted, and she already comes across that way anyway by not caring when Anakin confessed mass Sand Person murder to her, and marrying the psychopath anyway. When he eventually turns on her, my reaction was "well, what did you expect you silly cow? You married a mass murderer!"
Watto sold her anyway to Cleigg Lars, who I'm sure wasn't as rich as Padme or her government. I'm sure they could have done a private deal with Watto and even tossed a pay off to the Hutts if that was required for Shmi's freedom.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Jun 3, 2017 11:54:09 GMT -5
One thing I've noticed is that it's difficult to discuss TFA without mentioning the prequels or the OT. Is it possible to discuss TFA in isolation--what it does well and what it does badly?
For example, I like the enthusiasm that John Boyega and Oscar Isaac bring to the relationship between Finn and Poe. They sell their emotional connection in a very brief amount of time.
However, I really hate the bait-and-switch of Poe's fakeout death, especially since we don't see anything that would indicate how Poe could have survived, other than the fact that we didn't see his dead body.
I like that an actor of the caliber of Max von Sydow was cast in the movie.
I hate that he was basically an exposition machine to be cut down after he provided background information about Kylo Ren to the point that I still don't know the name of the character Sydow plays. The character is that inconsequential and forgettable.
I like the Ren/Finn-Rey lightsaber fight in the snow, especially given the intense blues and reds of the swung lightsabers which look pretty at night.
I hate the fact that as the planet was being destroyed, a fissure opens up which conveniently separates Rey from finishing off Ren.
I flat-out dislike the monster-tentacle-ball-thing chase/fleeing scene.
It always feels like... a failing? Of TFA as a movie since its merits and faults can only be debated in constant compared to the prequels (at least it's not about trade negotiations or sand!) or the OT (well, of course it had to be an homage to ANH, how else would you get fans to see it!).
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Jun 3, 2017 11:55:19 GMT -5
If the Republic is weak to begin with and completely ineffectual it makes it harder to sympathise with it's downfall. One could simply argue that the Star Wars galaxy is simply dysfunctional and it moved not from a glorious Republic of peace and justice to an evil Empire of tyranny and oppression, but rather from one shitty government to another, which undermines the "we must restore the Republic" narrative in the original trilogy. Restore what? A corrupt bureaucracy which is easily corrupted and subverted? Hardly a cause to rally behind. I think it makes sense for the Republic to have flaws. Has there ever been a perfect, utopian society? It makes it more realistic that the Republic had it's flaws... corruption, weakness, too much bureaucracy etc. They're still more preferable than a dictatorship. My point was that the Confederacy did have a point (personally villains work better when they do have a fair point and motivation) to want to separate from the Republic. Yeah, maybe they went too much into it. Personally though I quite liked the politics side of things. Seeing Palpatine rise to power and seeing how the Republic operated and how it fell and became the Empire. They are, doesn't stop them been really overdone and overused though. Especially when there's plenty of other evil groups that can be used as inspiration and would feel fresher since they're not so overused. True about the Knights of Ren. In fact if the rift between Hux and Ren is further explored that would be great. In fact a schism between the Nazis in the First Order and the religious fanatics would be great to see. Something different and interesting. I hope that's the route they go. [/quote] The piloting I mentioned I think is passable because the force has been shown to improve reflexes. As for the blaster, Rey was shown that she's never used a blaster before. She doesn't know how to hold one and doesn't know how to take the safety off but once she starts shooting she's a pin-point accurate shot able to outshoot trained soldiers? That's going too far. I've seen people defend it by saying Luke did the same but he was shown carrying a rifle on Tatooine so has obviously used one before and he's nowhere near as accurate with Rey. He gets a kill count of two, possibly 3 Stormtroopers in like 30-40 shots. Rey wipes them out without missing. Again though, what are her weaknesses and flaws? Luke was rash, reckless, angry and didn't listen until he matured in the final film. He developed as a character. He also wasn't particularly skilled at anything other than flying, at first. Anakin was skilled at a lot of things but his flaws come from his personality weaknesses. Filled with fear, anger, arrogance and weak-willed enough that he failed to stand up to Palpatine. He's a flawed character despite his skills. Rey's weaknesses are..... Other than been a bit naïve in thinking her parents are coming back, I'm drawing a blank. Good at everything, no real personality flaws. She needed some sort of weakness, all the best heroes have weaknesses and flaws no matter how skilled they are.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 3, 2017 12:16:11 GMT -5
That's a character development fallacy. Characters don't require a crippling or obvious weakness in order to be considered well-developed or well-rounded. And Rey's strengths, as of now, aren't that great of strengths. She's competent at a lot and has a lot of potential for greatness but it's nowhere near met yet.
Besides a lot of Luke's weaknesses and Anakin's weaknesses didn't really manifest themselves until the later movies where they had to learn to either overcome them (Luke) or succumb to them (Anakin). There's two movies for them to manifest in Rey. Her character arc is in its infancy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 12:26:49 GMT -5
None of them are that good. You were just a dork that likes outer space, laser guns, and like spirit-mind powers. Nothing wrong with that. It's just, Star Wars gets too much auto-love. They're just dummy paint-by-numbers movies really, ESPECIALLY prequel trilogy on through now. I'm sure the EU of the books is on point, but I don't read those.
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Post by Larryhausen on Jun 3, 2017 12:30:31 GMT -5
I greatly enjoy the prequels, and Force Awakens is my all time favorite Star Wars movie. Which basically makes it my favorite movie ever.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jun 3, 2017 12:35:06 GMT -5
That would be fine if people weren't putting their lives on the line to restore it. As it happens, when they do restore it, it basically collapses again.. After a while, I wonder why it doesn't dawn on the people of the Star Wars galaxy to just give up on the Republic and try something else instead.
The problem is that none of this explains why a war is going on in the prequels. There are only a limited number of explanations, all of them bad.
1- The Confederacy want to leave. The Republic won't let them, so therefore the Republic is using violence to keep them. So much for the glorious Republic described in the OT. Poor writing.
2- The Confederacy want to leave. The Republic will allow them to, but for some reason the Confederacy is still attacking the Republic. Why? I don't know. The screenplay never explained it. Again poor writing.
I presume sci-fi energy weapons have some sort of target assist system as a standard feature.
Stormtroopers are among the worst mooks ever seen in movies. They can't shoot for shit and wear bright white armour so they stand out like a sore thumb in every environment other than snow.
I've already said, she could have been killed at any time by Kylo Ren if he so desired. Her weakness is basically...death.
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