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Post by Cyno on Jun 3, 2017 12:44:18 GMT -5
The Force helps weapon accuracy. Obi-Wan Kenobi not only doesn't use blasters, but outright thinks them uncivilized and distasteful. But that didn't stop him from killing General Grievous with pinpoint blasts to the exposed point in his armor. And it also helped Luke blow up a little thing called the Death Star by perfectly targeting a tiny shaft, without use of a targeting computer, that leads to a reactor core with a proton torpedo in a fast moving X-Wing with rudimentary-at-best training.
I would presume that that feat is, at the very least, a far greater degree of difficulty than Rey hitting some stormtroopers with a blaster pistol.
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Post by mcmahonfan85 on Jun 3, 2017 12:46:00 GMT -5
Many characters in the Star Wars universe tend to be capable with a blaster and spaceship piloting. They would be useful skills to have. So Rey is not exceptional in that regard. Her capability with the Force isn't out of the ordinary in a universe where Chosen Ones and inherent knowledge of the Force has been seen before. It's almost certain they'll explain that she has blocked memories or a hidden origin which is strong with the Force. As for weaknesses, Kylo could have killed her in their first encounter when he froze her. He could have done the same when interrogating her, then could have murdered her a third time when he threw her into a tree. She had no defence in all three instances, and only gained strength when she was placed under great stress, cornered and had to focus her mind with the Force, and even that was against a wounded Kylo Ren. that's not a weakness, that's Kylo Ren choosing not to kill her. everyone is susceptible to being killed when they're rendered unconscious and strapped to a table. if anything, you could call that another strength for Rey. she has the ability to not die when completely defenseless because her captors are Bond-villain levels of stupid.
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Post by Larryhausen on Jun 3, 2017 12:56:54 GMT -5
Many characters in the Star Wars universe tend to be capable with a blaster and spaceship piloting. They would be useful skills to have. So Rey is not exceptional in that regard. Her capability with the Force isn't out of the ordinary in a universe where Chosen Ones and inherent knowledge of the Force has been seen before. It's almost certain they'll explain that she has blocked memories or a hidden origin which is strong with the Force. As for weaknesses, Kylo could have killed her in their first encounter when he froze her. He could have done the same when interrogating her, then could have murdered her a third time when he threw her into a tree. She had no defence in all three instances, and only gained strength when she was placed under great stress, cornered and had to focus her mind with the Force, and even that was against a wounded Kylo Ren. that's not a weakness, that's Kylo Ren choosing not to kill her. everyone is susceptible to being killed when they're rendered unconscious and strapped to a table. if anything, you could call that another strength for Rey. she has the ability to not die when completely defenseless because her captors are Bond-villain levels of stupid. Which is even funnier because the Trooper she uses the mind trick on is James Bond.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jun 3, 2017 14:07:33 GMT -5
Many characters in the Star Wars universe tend to be capable with a blaster and spaceship piloting. They would be useful skills to have. So Rey is not exceptional in that regard. Her capability with the Force isn't out of the ordinary in a universe where Chosen Ones and inherent knowledge of the Force has been seen before. It's almost certain they'll explain that she has blocked memories or a hidden origin which is strong with the Force. As for weaknesses, Kylo could have killed her in their first encounter when he froze her. He could have done the same when interrogating her, then could have murdered her a third time when he threw her into a tree. She had no defence in all three instances, and only gained strength when she was placed under great stress, cornered and had to focus her mind with the Force, and even that was against a wounded Kylo Ren. that's not a weakness, that's Kylo Ren choosing not to kill her. everyone is susceptible to being killed when they're rendered unconscious and strapped to a table. if anything, you could call that another strength for Rey. she has the ability to not die when completely defenseless because her captors are Bond-villain levels of stupid. Not everyone. Harry Potter was killed and returned. Neo was killed but came back. Frodo was stabbed by a Nazgul but survived. If Kylo wanted to kill Rey she would have been dead. She can't be a Mary Sue if her exceptional abilities are 1- piloting, 2- shooting, 3- fixing stuff, and 4- being strong with the Force, which is hardly unique in Star Wars. At the most, she's comparable to Luke (which may be important to the plot anyway), and no one calls him a male Mary Sue.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 3, 2017 14:13:11 GMT -5
that's not a weakness, that's Kylo Ren choosing not to kill her. everyone is susceptible to being killed when they're rendered unconscious and strapped to a table. if anything, you could call that another strength for Rey. she has the ability to not die when completely defenseless because her captors are Bond-villain levels of stupid. Not everyone. Harry Potter was killed and returned. Neo was killed but came back. Frodo was stabbed by a Nazgul but survived. If Kylo wanted to kill Rey she would have been dead. She can't be a Mary Sue if her exceptional abilities are 1- piloting, 2- shooting, 3- fixing stuff, and 4- being strong with the Force, which is hardly unique in Star Wars. At the most, she's comparable to Luke (which may be important to the plot anyway), and no one calls him a male Mary Sue. That being the key word. If Rey was a dude, I doubt we'd be having this conversation. Besides, why would Kylo Ren kill Rey? She's strong with the Force but untrained. He thought she could lead them to Skywalker but since she resisted his probing, might as well use her as an asset. And Snoke even ordered him to bring her to him. Look how long it took Palpatine to go "Eh, screw it. I'll just kill the little shit." with Luke. When it comes to the Sith and Sith-wannabes like Kylo Ren, turning Force users to the Dark Side is much more satisfying than just flat out killing them.
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Post by mcmahonfan85 on Jun 3, 2017 15:22:43 GMT -5
that's not a weakness, that's Kylo Ren choosing not to kill her. everyone is susceptible to being killed when they're rendered unconscious and strapped to a table. if anything, you could call that another strength for Rey. she has the ability to not die when completely defenseless because her captors are Bond-villain levels of stupid. Not everyone. Harry Potter was killed and returned. Neo was killed but came back. Frodo was stabbed by a Nazgul but survived. If Kylo wanted to kill Rey she would have been dead. She can't be a Mary Sue if her exceptional abilities are 1- piloting, 2- shooting, 3- fixing stuff, and 4- being strong with the Force, which is hardly unique in Star Wars. At the most, she's comparable to Luke (which may be important to the plot anyway), and no one calls him a male Mary Sue. death is not a weakness because everyone can die. "Uh, we can't send Rey, because she could die. So send Fin, even though he could die. Or send Poe, even though he could die. Or Han, even though he could die. Or Chewie, even though he could die..." Harry Potter was killed and returned only because Voldemort f***ed up and accidentally turned him into a Horcrux. he is not invulnerable to death. also, if it wasn't for direct assistance from his friends, he never would have been able to accomplish his goals. Neo is able to come back because he is The One, and could come back in the Matrix. he is not invulnerable to death. also, if it was for direct assistance from others, he never would have been able to accomplish his goals. Frodo was stabbed by the Nazgul but survived because he received help from others. he is not invulnerable to death. take away Aragorn, he would've died at Brie. if her lone weakness is a weakness every single other person in existence also has, the she is still over powerful compared to everyone else. she is not comparable to Luke because Luke is not skilled like her. unlike Rey, Luke needs help from others because he can't do everything. he can't speak every language in the universe, so he needs C3PO to translate for him. he can't instinctively use the Force, so he needs Obi Wan and Yoda to train him. if it wasn't for Han, Vader would've shot down Luke's X-Wing and prevented him from blowing up the Death Star. let's look at Rey's skills there. Piloting: in her first time ever flying it, she successfully flies the Millennium Flacon through a downed Star Destroyer while being chased and shot at by Tie Fighters. Shooting: she doesn't know you have to take the safety off to shoot, but then has perfect aim. Fixing stuff: she tells Han how to fix his own ship. Strong with the Force: there are a lot of people strong with the Force, but they can't instinctively use it to control someone into letting them go. even with the theory of "she was previously trained", she was still left on Tatooine II as a very small child and it has been so long she has forgotten everything. if she was trained to do that as a kid, why wasn't she waiving her hand in front of the fat alien's face and going "You will give me more portions"? she does not have an exceptional abilities, she has multiple exceptional abilities, with the added benefit of no weakness besides the universal weakness of death. Not everyone. Harry Potter was killed and returned. Neo was killed but came back. Frodo was stabbed by a Nazgul but survived. If Kylo wanted to kill Rey she would have been dead. She can't be a Mary Sue if her exceptional abilities are 1- piloting, 2- shooting, 3- fixing stuff, and 4- being strong with the Force, which is hardly unique in Star Wars. At the most, she's comparable to Luke (which may be important to the plot anyway), and no one calls him a male Mary Sue. That being the key word. If Rey was a dude, I doubt we'd be having this conversation. Besides, why would Kylo Ren kill Rey? She's strong with the Force but untrained. He thought she could lead them to Skywalker but since she resisted his probing, might as well use her as an asset. And Snoke even ordered him to bring her to him. Look how long it took Palpatine to go "Eh, screw it. I'll just kill the little shit." with Luke. When it comes to the Sith and Sith-wannabes like Kylo Ren, turning Force users to the Dark Side is much more satisfying than just flat out killing them. gender has nothing to do with it. Superman, a male, is all powerful. a lot of people don't like him, that is usually one of, if not the, main reason why. if Rey was a male, the glaring flaw of the character being overly powerful with no weakness would still be apparent
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AFN: Judge Shred
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Post by AFN: Judge Shred on Jun 3, 2017 15:27:47 GMT -5
Just for fun, Lego Star Wars: The Force Awakens the video game fills out the story a ton telling us all about what happened to Poe and how he got back, how 3P0 got the red arm and more. That game may be the best way to experience that story.
The legit reasoning for Poe I believe is that he was supposed to die, but they liked him too much and wrote him back in but the movie was already hella long so they didn't show what happened, they left it up to the audience to figure out it.
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AFN: Judge Shred
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by AFN: Judge Shred on Jun 3, 2017 15:33:17 GMT -5
Also, I am betting Rey wasn't young when she was left on Jakku, that was memory manipulation I am sure. She was older and more well trained than we know.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 3, 2017 15:50:51 GMT -5
Rey isn't even that powerful. Her greatest feats are convincing a stormtrooper to release her from her torture table and holding her own against an already seriously injured Kylo Ren. The little things like being a decent shot and a decent pilot don't make her all powerful. They make her competent.
So yes, I do think there's gender bias there. Rey hasn't done anything overwhelmingly extraordinary compared to Luke and Anakin at their relative points in the narrative, but she's the one who gets overly scrutinized for it. If Poe or Finn was doing this shit, no one would bat an eye. The comparison to Superman is ridiculous and not even worth any serious effort to refute.
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Post by mcmahonfan85 on Jun 3, 2017 17:17:44 GMT -5
Rey isn't even that powerful. Her greatest feats are convincing a stormtrooper to release her from her torture table and holding her own against an already seriously injured Kylo Ren. The little things like being a decent shot and a decent pilot don't make her all powerful. They make her competent. So yes, I do think there's gender bias there. Rey hasn't done anything overwhelmingly extraordinary compared to Luke and Anakin at their relative points in the narrative, but she's the one who gets overly scrutinized for it. If Poe or Finn was doing this shit, no one would bat an eye. The comparison to Superman is ridiculous and not even worth any serious effort to refute. even injured, Kylo Ren is A) still better trained in the Force, B) still better trained with a lightsaber, and C) was kicking her ass until he said "...the Force". people want to the use this "well, he wasn't full trained" excuse to explain how Rey beating him was no big deal. if Kylo Ren was such weak, insignificant, nothing of a threat, why then did he kill so many Jedi and do so much damage that it sent Luke into hiding. if it were Poe or Finn, it would be the same problem. using gender bias as a deflection for valid criticism is the same people crying "Marvel Fan Boy!" whenever someone says something critical about the DCEU. in Episode I, Anakin is exceptional at one thing: being a pilot. in the original Star Wars, Luke really isn't exceptional at anything. he's a so-so marksman with a blaster, unskilled with a lightsaber, and can decently fly an X-Wing in a straight line down a canyon. Rey is an exceptional pilot, as demonstrated by flying the "garbage" Millennium Falcon through the Star Destroyer. Rey is an exceptional mechanic, as demonstrated by her explaining to Han how to fix his own ship. Rey has an exceptional mastery of the Force, has demonstrated by her ability of being able to do a Jedi mind trick despite not only having seemingly no training in the Force, but also seemingly having no knowledge that the mind trick actually exists and is a thing people can do. Rey is an exceptional shot, as demonstrated by her ability to shoot anything and everything mere seconds after learning where the safety is. Rey has an exceptional knowledge of the untold number of languages spoken across the galaxy, as demonstrated by her ability to not only understand BB-8, but also her ability to perfectly understand Chewbacca upon their first encounter (or did she just spend a lot of time in the Little Kashyyyk neighborhood of Tent City on Jakku?) and she has no weakness or flaw. if she has no weakness, she has nothing to overcome. and if she has nothing to overcome, she's not a very compelling character, because there's nothing she can't do. and if they need another film to explain her character, that doesn't negate the flaws in The Force Awakens, that proves there are flaws, because A) you shouldn't need to create a second movie to explain the first one, and B) like Poe surviving the crash, they really had no plausible explanation for why Rey was so skilled at everything, and had to kick the can down the road while they came up with a reason. i like The Force Awakens, and i like Rey. but even though i like them, i can see them for what they are, and what they are is flawed. in The Force Awakens, Rey is more skilled and powerful than both Luke and Anakin in their first movies combined. there is seemingly nothing she can't do, and she has no flaw holding her back from being the hero she's meant to be, which is the biggest problem. Luke and Anakin's faults were that they were emotional, easily frustrated, and quick to action without thinking things through, and these flaws led to their ultimate fate. Anakin was unable to overcome his flaws and fell to the dark side, while Luke did overcome them and remained on the light side. and those faults were apparent from the very beginning, and Rey's, if she has any, are not. so far, she is good at everything and bad at nothing, so she is not a three dimensional character.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jun 3, 2017 17:20:55 GMT -5
We don't know that he's better trained at all. We haven't seen the extent of either of their training yet. If we had the full story so far, it'd be an argument. As is, it's all speculation.
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Jun 3, 2017 18:05:45 GMT -5
I really don't get the angst against Rey beating Kylo..
- Kylo was shot. They built up the crossbow the entire film.
- He'd just killed his father. And the script dictates this actually devastated him.
- Clearly Rey had some sort of force training when she was younger or is very connected to the force. It's been said Luke will explain her relationship to the force in TLJ.
- Rey had experience beating up dudes on her home planet.
- Kylo wanted to convince him to join her. She just saw him kill her only father-figure, she wanted to kill him.
- look up videos of Daisy Ridleys stunt double. Convinced she could kick just about any dudes ass.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 3, 2017 18:13:55 GMT -5
On that note, have you seen the videos of Daisy Ridley squatting like it's nothing? She's buff.
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Jun 3, 2017 18:17:17 GMT -5
On that note, have you seen the videos of Daisy Ridley squatting like it's nothing? She's buff. No yeah, she's definitely in shape and athletic and has gotten into BETTER shape for TLJ, but videos of her stunt double are terrifying. The woman's a beast. I think people get pissed because Kylo wasn't Vader. He's a petulant, unsure, insecure, angry Manboy. But that's the point. That's what makes him interesting.
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Post by Cela on Jun 3, 2017 20:44:32 GMT -5
We don't know that he's better trained at all. We haven't seen the extent of either of their training yet. If we had the full story so far, it'd be an argument. As is, it's all speculation. You know, I could accept this, if our first exposure to him wasn't the single most powerful display of the Force since the prequels. No one ever froze a blaster shot in mid air. Hell, Vader only deflected things shot at him. So yeah, based on that, Ren is not some half assed trained jedi-ish type.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jun 3, 2017 20:50:26 GMT -5
Right, but again, we still don't know how trained Rey is either.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Jun 3, 2017 21:07:56 GMT -5
With the staying a stooge part, there's a good potential idea there. He turned to the dark side,and has now killed his wife, his friends, he's been crippled, his powers are weakened and anyone who could fight the emperor is gone. He's not a stooge, he's turned himself into a slave. The novelisation of ROTS explicitly states that. Anakin realises that Palpatine played him and hates him every bit as much as he hates the Jedi, but is now too weak to overthrow Palpatine directly. Equally, Palpatine is disappointed by Vader being half the apprentice he could've been before the fight with Obi-Wan. In the EU stuff that dealt with the period when the Empire ruled Vader and Palpatine had a frienemy relationship - Vader as the slave plotting to overthrow his master and Palpatine as the contemptuous master always on the look out for a better apprentice. I can't recommend the ROTS novelization enough. So much more depth to that than the movie. Between Matthew Stover, Dave Filoni, Henry Gilroy, Amanda Lucas, and James Luceno, everyone else involved in the series tell George Lucas' story of that era better than George Lucas did.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Jun 3, 2017 21:21:28 GMT -5
Also, the only Jedi Kylo killed were probably fellow padawans for whom he could probably beat anyway in a day-to-day basis. Not to mention he didn't do it alone. From what we know so far, the other Knights of Ren were with him. I'm not sure that's a fair way to judge how strong he is or isn't because I'd imagine that wasn't much of a challenge for him.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jun 3, 2017 23:59:16 GMT -5
So what's Finn's weakness? What's Poe's weakness? What's Chewie's weakness? Yet only Rey is labelled as an Mary Sue.
So Deus Ex Machina then. Just as bad as Mary Sue-ism.
You're right. He can't fly, he can't shoot, and can't fight. Oh wait.
Rey doesn't speak every language in the universe. She talks to the natives of her planet and droids. Luke could do that too.
Rudimentary training only.
So Luke would have been killed? His weakness is therefore death? But I thought that's everyone's weakness?
She trashes it. Almost destroys Finn's gun.
Luke seems to have similar skills. I guess he shot critters with his sub-orbital glider, which is apparently excellent training for fighting a highly trained military force and destroying a superweapon.
A ship he hadn't seen for decades, which may have been altered with Jakku equipment she might be familiar with because of her experience as a salvager of mechanical junk on Jakku. The ship was owned by her junk dealer after all.
We don't know enough about her history to make judgements on what she should be capable of or not at this point in regards to the Force. If perhaps her own family was strong with the Force, it makes sense she'd have those inherent abilities. They manifested with Princess Leia at a similar age.
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Post by xCompackx on Jun 4, 2017 0:54:04 GMT -5
Not sure it's been mentioned yet, but Jakku probably isn't the most friendly of places to grow up as an orphan forced to fend for themselves; it's reasonable to assume Rey picked up a few skills along the way. Maybe she has fixed/piloted a few ships or something for odd jobs. Anakin's proof that kids aren't exactly sheltered in the Star Wars universe.
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