Glitch
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Post by Glitch on Oct 27, 2019 15:35:11 GMT -5
Maybe it’s a generational thing. I say that because I grew up on movies like Aliens, Terminator, Friday the 13th, Halloween and Nightmare on Elm Street where strong women would end up defeating overpowering monsters. Everyone I knew loved those movies. These were all franchises. We loved many of those sequels too. We thought leads like Ripley and Sarah Connor were cool. I don’t recall anyone treating them like eye candy either. Many of those movies were addictive. We’d watch them over and over again. I can’t remember anyone having a problem with a female being the hero. Very true, we all grew up on strong female-led movies and tv shows, but they didn't go out of their way to demean men, there was true equality in all of them. There wasn't any overbearing social commentary on gender either. As I said earlier in the thread, I recently saw Terminator Dark Fate, which has three female leads, and enjoyed it. Is there a problem I had with it? Yeah, in one scene and one scene only, the plot took precipice over the agenda-pushing/social commentary, it was a fair popcorn romp and it gives the franchise renewed energy. I disagree with anyone critiquing all of it bar the one issue I had that took a jab at the significance of motherhood. But because I think there is some kind of agenda at play with a lot of the other movies, I and others, are accused of being an "exhibit a" sexist with an erectile dysfunction. Classy. Real classy. Let's not forget some of the people I've seen with the same critiques of these movies and the agenda happen to be female and gender-fluid also. So basically, you think once something has some type of social commentary, it loses it's value. Why is that somehow special for captain marvel? A lot of the Mcu flicks have had some type of critique on society (Winter soldier,Black Panther). The Terminator series itself can be seen as critique on war and technology. Just because the message isn't something that you directly deal with , doesn't mean it is not valid. A lot of women resonated with the part of Captain Marvel highlighting that women as gaslit by being told they are told they are too emotional. It's not a bad thing just because it's not your problem. It's totally ok not to like Captain Marvel because you don't think it was a well made movie, but saying it's "shameful undermining of men"(your words) because it doesn't fit your agenda is ridiculous.
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Post by xCompackx on Oct 27, 2019 16:13:04 GMT -5
Personally, and I know I'm going in with the intent to be entertained as opposed to trying to find social agendas to criticize, but literally no movie I've ever seen has had evidence of "feminist agendas"; it's always people trying to force the argument into the conversation. Captain Marvel being portrayed as a strong character in a movie titled "Captain Marvel"? Stands to reason.
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Post by BrodietheSlayer on Oct 27, 2019 16:42:36 GMT -5
I don't hate movies with empowered women. I hate BAD movies with empowered women (Craptain Marvel). Then shouldn't that just be hating bad movies? What's the empowered women got to do with it? Yeah, there's a lot of shitty/badly written movies where the hero is a male, and yet, none of that usually is held against the idea of a man playing an action hero, as we just all accept that as being a given. And yet, when a woman plays an action hero (or takes the lead in any kind of fantasy based story/movie), she has all kinds of quality hoops that she has to jump through before being accepted as being equal to a strong male character. The "Mary Sue" bullshit being a perfect example of that (and yes, I know there is also a Gary Stu, but I rarely see that tag being brought up when discussing a badly written male hero, and yet people will toss Mary Sue out at any female hero that doesn't live up to Their standard of what a female hero should be) double standard.
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hassanchop
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Post by hassanchop on Oct 27, 2019 16:58:07 GMT -5
Then shouldn't that just be hating bad movies? What's the empowered women got to do with it? Yeah, there's a lot of shitty/badly written movies where the hero is a male, and yet, none of that usually is held against the idea of a man playing an action hero, as we just all accept that as being a given. And yet, when a woman plays an action hero (or takes the lead in any kind of fantasy based story/movie), she has all kinds of quality hoops that she has to jump through before being accepted as being equal to a strong male character. The "Mary Sue" bullshit being a perfect example of that (and yes, I know there is also a Gary Stu, but I rarely see that tag being brought up when discussing a badly written male hero, and yet people will toss Mary Sue out at any female hero that doesn't live up to Their standard of what a female hero should be) double standard. There are some folks that thought Joker would inspire real world violence on its release. Not sure if that counts.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Oct 27, 2019 17:03:24 GMT -5
Yeah, there's a lot of shitty/badly written movies where the hero is a male, and yet, none of that usually is held against the idea of a man playing an action hero, as we just all accept that as being a given. And yet, when a woman plays an action hero (or takes the lead in any kind of fantasy based story/movie), she has all kinds of quality hoops that she has to jump through before being accepted as being equal to a strong male character. The "Mary Sue" bullshit being a perfect example of that (and yes, I know there is also a Gary Stu, but I rarely see that tag being brought up when discussing a badly written male hero, and yet people will toss Mary Sue out at any female hero that doesn't live up to Their standard of what a female hero should be) double standard. There are some folks that thought Joker would inspire real world violence on its release. Not sure if that counts. Even still, that fear was of people relating to Joker.
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on Oct 27, 2019 17:14:22 GMT -5
It's hard to believe that it's a one off legit criticism of Captain Marvel when it comes up time and time again. Particularly in any given franchise that usually centered their male heroes.
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agent817
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Post by agent817 on Oct 27, 2019 17:52:38 GMT -5
The thread question is loaded. There are indeed sexist twats out there who are bigots, no doubt, and they use prominent movies to raise their own profiles on social media, but studios and their sycophants in the media also amplify those bigots as a means of smearing legit critics of their films. The movies that claim to be empowering, woke, progressive etc... towards women really aren't. It's just a marketing strategy, which often marginalises much stronger female characters that pre-date them by decades. For example, Ghostbusters 2016 wasn't a feminist statement. It was just a shitty remake with four female characters who were piss poor in comparison to Dana and Janine in the original movies, and when faced with criticism of a bad movie, the studio didn't want to face up to their own failures. As someone who actually liked Ghostbusters 2016, I wouldn't go so far as to say that it wasn't a feminist statement. Okay, let me back up a bit. Maybe not so much a feminist statement, but if you look at certain aspects, there were some things that portrayed some male characters in a negative light. For example, that one dean character who was a total jerk. The portrayal of Chris Hemworth's character is another example. Let's not forget where the ladies zapped the proton streams towards in the climax. If that doesn't say that it wasn't trying to be feminist, I don't know what does. Maybe not so much a feminism statement like you said, but some of the male characters weren't painted in a positive light. And like I said before, I say this as someone who actually enjoyed the film.
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Post by cabbageboy on Oct 27, 2019 17:58:22 GMT -5
Personally I think it comes down to how realistic this is. Characters like Captain Marvel are clearly in the realm of superheroes, much like Rey is someone with mystical Jedi powers in the recent Star Wars movies. It was kind of absurd that Rey could just defeat an experienced Force user like Kylo in TFA, but whatever. She's stronger with The Force or something.
I have more of a problem with movies that are supposed to semi exist in a real world where you have the female lead beating up formidable male opponents. The biggest example of this would be Ilsa Faust in Mission Impossible: Rogue Nation, where it was just laughable seeing this chick clean dominate entire rooms of highly trained mercenaries. They toned it down quite a bit for Fallout though, so I'll give them credit for that much.
Think about those other movies mentioned. Did Sigourney Weaver really do anything absurd or unrealistic that an everyday woman couldn't do in the Aliens movies? Jamie Lee Curtis in the original Halloween didn't even defeat Michael Myers (Loomis shot him). Sarah Conner barely survived The Terminator after Kyle Reese did a ton of the work there, crushing The Terminator in the foundry or whatever but hardly busting out ninja moves.
At the end of the day I think a bunch of guys grouch about it because it's just not what they want to see in a movie. I'll admit that I just kinda put up with it, but it's not the real me.
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Oct 27, 2019 18:06:42 GMT -5
Watching The X-Men Evolution episode where Jean gets angry at Scott for asking if she needed help in the Danger Room and forms an all girl team in response featuring them wearing shades and skin tight black outfits and in the end Scott still has to apologize for how he acted and she's portrayed in the right for basically having a temper tantrum sincerely makes me wonder if some people have years of resentment over Prom and haven't gotten over it.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Oct 27, 2019 18:22:59 GMT -5
They hate movies featuring strong women because it makes their erections last for more than 4 hours. That’s dangerous.
Maybe that just my problem.
Serious answer is a mixed one. The most extreme responses do tend towards the pathetic driven by toxic masculinity/misogyny. The incel edit of Endgame was a perfect example of that, with bonus racism!
I mean, there are poorly written strong female characters. Not all of them will be Princess Leia, who was portrayed by a very strong woman herself who probably drove her portrayal.
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Post by James Fabiano on Oct 27, 2019 18:40:27 GMT -5
If it's subtle and feels organic, it's great.
When it's obviously put out there for attention or promotional purposes, or without subtlety/with a wink and nudge, that's when it becomes irritating.
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Post by King Boo on Oct 27, 2019 18:42:33 GMT -5
Have any women chimed in on this thread yet? Feels like that would be an important aspect to the discussion.
For the record, for whatever ground Marvel was trying to break with Captain Marvel, there are three issues I, as a woman, have:
1 - Wonder Woman came out first and arguably did it better (it did in my opinion, but others may not agree) 2 - Marvel, for all of their declarations about ZOMG A FEMALE LEAD SUPERHERO, took over a decade to get said female lead superhero in the spotlight (*cough*BLACK WIDOW*cough*), so maybe calm down a touch and 3 - While I didn't dislike Carol, a problem I had was that, outside of some moments here and there, she seemed completely devoid of personality or emotion. Strong doesn't mean blank and humorless. A female superhero can be just as vibrant and full of personality as a male one (*cough*BLACK WIDOW*cough*). Hopefully that changes in the next movie.
Sometimes the problem really is with the presentation. I want representation, of course, but I would also like for it to be relateable and enjoyable (both ultimately being subjective things).
I think the truth with this kind of thing, like most things, is somewhere in the middle. There are totally those guys who live up to the negative stereotype spoken of in this thread, but there are also men who don't necessarily deserve to have their points dismissed because their overall opinion ("I didn't like Captain Marvel") is shared with those negative guys. We generalize for ease and quickness (I can do it sometimes too) but I think those generalizations wind up adding fuel to an already sizable fire.
TL;DR: Things should be taken on their own merits and mistakes - the product being discussed, and the opinions of those discussing it.
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Oct 27, 2019 18:47:17 GMT -5
Have any women chimed in on this thread yet? Feels like that would be an important aspect to the discussion. For the record, for whatever ground Marvel was trying to break with Captain Marvel, there are three issues I, as a woman, have: 1 - Wonder Woman came out first and arguably did it better (it did in my opinion, but others may not agree) 2 - Marvel, for all of their declarations about ZOMG A FEMALE LEAD SUPERHERO, took over a decade to get said female lead superhero in the spotlight (*cough*BLACK WIDOW*cough*), so maybe calm down a touch and 3 - While I didn't dislike Carol, a problem I had was that, outside of some moments here and there, she seemed completely devoid of personality or emotion. Strong doesn't mean blank and humorless. A female superhero can be just as vibrant and full of personality as a male one (*cough* BLACK WIDOW*cough*). Hopefully that changes in the next movie. Sometimes the problem really is with the presentation. I want representation, of course, but I would also like for it to be relateable and enjoyable (both ultimately being subjective things). I think the truth with this kind of thing, like most things, is somewhere in the middle. There are totally those guys who live up to the negative stereotype spoken of in this thread, but there are also men who don't necessarily deserve to have their points dismissed because their overall opinion ("I didn't like Captain Marvel") is shared with those negative guys. We generalize for ease and quickness (I can do it sometimes too) but I think those generalizations wind up adding fuel to an already sizable fire.TL;DR: Things should be taken on their own merits and mistakes - the product being discussed, and the opinions of those discussing it. Think the bolded is especially true when it comes to this discussion, unfortunately.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 18:47:34 GMT -5
Personally I've loved any form of fiction with empowered women. I grew up with April O'Neil, Chun-li, Cammy, Jun Kazama, just stuff like that, Lara Croft so to see women not be empowered (or not have a few empowered women in whatever it is) is actually off putting to me.
Now as for Captain Marvel, I just didn't like Carol for some reason. I don't know what it is but it felt like Brie wasn't really Carol, it felt like I couldn't latch onto the character. Scarlet Witch though? Yeah, I latched onto her. Black Widow too to a degree but I just didn't like Captain Marvel.
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Post by Hobby Drifter on Oct 27, 2019 19:03:38 GMT -5
Years ago, male geeks believed that it was their interest in nerdy hobbies that made them repulsive to the opposite sex. When it became apparent that plenty of women were also into comics, sci-fi, and video games, some part of them realized that the problem wasn't their hobbies; the problem was *them*.
For years and years, the vast majority of nerdy stuff seemed aimed at boys/men. There were few if any female characters, and those that were included were often sidekicks or simply used as plot devices (princesses to be saved, etc).
Now? Women-lead movies, comics, and games can succeed *without being aimed primarily at men*. That means we can get entire franchises with strong, competent, powerful women that don't have to look like underwear models, show gratuitous T and A, or need men to achieve their goals.
You'll see a lot of people (several already in this thread) complaining about how these female characters don't have any character development and just exist to "shove female empowerment in our faces" (and, wow, that kind of thinking should lead to a few hours on the couch with a professional). But they didn't seem to mind all the male power fantasies that existed for decades in media. I didn't notice a whole lot of angry nerds up in arms about the stars of Die Hard, Death Wish, Lethal Weapon, Contra, Super Mario Bros, the Punisher, or John Wick being able to take out entire armies on their own.
Long story short, even if it wasn't their hobbies that made them un****able, at least all of that stuff was still aimed squarely at them. Even games starring women were aimed at men. With Metroid, you didn't find out the main character was a women unless you finished the game (and if you finished the game quickly, that woman was dressed in a bikini). With Tomb Raider, the main character was designed with the male gaze in mind. Now? Franchises aren't all made with dudes in mind. Captain Marvel, Ms Marvel, Star Wars, She-Ra, etc. It's not like they can't be enjoyed by men (I like most of 'em). But they're aimed at girls and women (or at least not specifically at men).
The fact that men wind up becoming caricatures of the villains from the series they claim to love when they do things like Gamergate, the Fandom Menace, or ComicsGate seems to be completely lost on them.
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Post by Cyno on Oct 27, 2019 20:25:26 GMT -5
Wonder Woman was excellent and IMO better than Captain Marvel. Gal Gadot did a great job portraying her with all the culture shock going from Themyscira to the world of Man. It had a great sense of humor, too. The only weak point was Ares was kinda lame as the main villain. Otherwise it was the diamond hidden in the middle of the pile of turd that was the DCEU.
And even then you had manchildren getting up in arms about some random theater doing a single girls' only screening of the movie.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Oct 27, 2019 20:27:30 GMT -5
I have more of a problem with movies that are supposed to semi exist in a real world where you have the female lead beating up formidable male opponents. The biggest example of this would be Ilsa Faust in Mission Impossible: Rogue Nation, where it was just laughable seeing this chick clean dominate entire rooms of highly trained mercenaries. They toned it down quite a bit for Fallout though, so I'll give them credit for that much. Here's the thing, is it laughable when John Wick does it, for example? He routinely dominates rooms full of assassins who are often bigger and better armed.
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Spider2024
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Post by Spider2024 on Oct 27, 2019 20:42:44 GMT -5
The thread question is loaded. There are indeed sexist twats out there who are bigots, no doubt, and they use prominent movies to raise their own profiles on social media, but studios and their sycophants in the media also amplify those bigots as a means of smearing legit critics of their films. The movies that claim to be empowering, woke, progressive etc... towards women really aren't. It's just a marketing strategy, which often marginalises much stronger female characters that pre-date them by decades. For example, Ghostbusters 2016 wasn't a feminist statement. It was just a shitty remake with four female characters who were piss poor in comparison to Dana and Janine in the original movies, and when faced with criticism of a bad movie, the studio didn't want to face up to their own failures. As someone who actually liked Ghostbusters 2016, I wouldn't go so far as to say that it wasn't a feminist statement. Okay, let me back up a bit. Maybe not so much a feminist statement, but if you look at certain aspects, there were some things that portrayed some male characters in a negative light. For example, that one dean character who was a total jerk. The portrayal of Chris Hemworth's character is another example. Let's not forget where the ladies zapped the proton streams towards in the climax. If that doesn't say that it wasn't trying to be feminist, I don't know what does. Maybe not so much a feminism statement like you said, but some of the male characters weren't painted in a positive light. And like I said before, I say this as someone who actually enjoyed the film. Even then, it's not like it felt like those male characters were painted to look bad because they were male. I've definitely seen works (tv episodes/commercials/etc.) where it seems like that's a little bit on purpose, but most works do indeed manage to not tear down the male gender just for the sake of empowering the female gender. I liked Ghostbusters: ATC also btw. Certainly wasn't offended in any way, and never thought while watching it that it was any kind of bad movie particularly. I think it gets WAY too much hate. One reason being that it wasn't quite the "Ghostbusters 3" everyone had hoped for ever since Ghostbusters 2. SPEAKING OF by the way, people seem to GB2 "wasn't that bad", but it seems funny that a lot more people were saying that only after GB:ATC came out. I know everyone is entitled to their own opinion on how good any given movie is, but GB2 was NOT better than GB:ATC. They're about even in quality, I might just favor ATC slightly over 2, but then again 2 has that highly enjoyable Bobby Brown song so maybe they even out. People seem to forget that GB2 was lambasted as "not nearly as good as GB1" for the longest time, that's one thing I feel the need to point out.
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Spider2024
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Post by Spider2024 on Oct 27, 2019 20:47:10 GMT -5
There are totally those guys who live up to the negative stereotype spoken of in this thread, but there are also men who don't necessarily deserve to have their points dismissed because their overall opinion ("I didn't like Captain Marvel") is shared with those negative guys. We generalize for ease and quickness (I can do it sometimes too) but I think those generalizations wind up adding fuel to an already sizable fire. Can you tell everyone on Twitter/Instagram/etc. all of this please? Thanks in advance. EDIT: OK, speaking of over-generalizing for ease and quickness, some people out there don't need to be told this... but a lot of people do.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Oct 27, 2019 21:03:05 GMT -5
It seems a current thing. The same neckbeards raging about Rose and Rey or Captain Marvel also probably loved things in the 80s and 90s with empowered women like Alien and Tomb Raider.
I see it as part of a,wider backlash against what the neckbeards see as SJWs.
A woman or minority is the lead, they decide its SJW pandering and so immediately rage on it.
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