Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 27, 2021 2:06:01 GMT -5
AJ Lee's tweet is the reason that #givedivasachance started trending. It started trending after a hyped Bellas vs Emma and Paige match lasted 30 seconds on Raw. It had been trending for almost 24 hours before AJ's equal pay tweet. Yeah, fans were already really angry, AJ Lee just helped keep the heat on and keep it from dying off as easily.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2021 2:07:14 GMT -5
Perhaps I’m making this sound way too one sided, but I feel like Roman Reigns rose to the top organically (2013-2015) and was very much accepted and over with the fans. It was the booking of Rumble 2015 that did him in, and not so much being “shoved down our throats.” I'm terrible with remembering the years of things, but I feel like Roman was actually starting to gain traction as a face when he was basically playing the role of "Goldberg, but knows how to work". I remember us all sharing a gif of him spearing the shit out Big Show and most of us thinking "That's the Roman we want to see". Hell, cocky swagger Roman post-Taker match was BOOED, but could have worked that into being a face. "Sufferin' Succotash" and "ROMAN'S SLEEPING *CLAP CLAP CLAPCLAPCLAP*" were what did him in.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 27, 2021 2:13:22 GMT -5
Perhaps I’m making this sound way too one sided, but I feel like Roman Reigns rose to the top organically (2013-2015) and was very much accepted and over with the fans. It was the booking of Rumble 2015 that did him in, and not so much being “shoved down our throats.” I'm terrible with remembering the years of things, but I feel like Roman was actually starting to gain traction as a face when he was basically playing the role of "Goldberg, but knows how to work". I remember us all sharing a gif of him spearing the shit out Big Show and most of us thinking "That's the Roman we want to see". Hell, cocky swagger Roman post-Taker match was BOOED, but could have worked that into being a face. "Sufferin' Succotash" and "ROMAN'S SLEEPING *CLAP CLAP CLAPCLAPCLAP*" were what did him in. Roman just wasnt good enough to be a good time at the guy, the booking sure didnt help. But the explanation is just,there was many guys better than him at the time
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2021 2:57:27 GMT -5
and even in the podcast the point of the line wasn't a dig at Roman... it was more Punk incredulously asking... how the hell do you make someone look strong when it's a 3 on 1 handicap match... and you are the ONE winning. It wasn't a dig, but it shed light on the fact that Roman was a chosen one. And Vince is a heel to the fans, especially the hardcores who attend shows. And the general line of thinking is that Vince doesn't like what you like, he will bury what you like and force feed what he likes. So the idea that Vince liked Roman turned him heel. People will prefer cheering a guy like Bryan because he's an underdog, so people relate to him. Yeah thats just completely rewriting history. The crowd was already turning on Reigns way before the podcast.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Aug 27, 2021 3:09:07 GMT -5
I always maintain there was nothing inherently wrong with Reigns keeping the Shield aesthetic. That kind of thing can work (Bret Hart keeping the pink and black from the original Hart Foundation tag team) just as much as it might not (Marty Jannetty being a Rocker any time after 1992). It'd have been a non-issue had the rest of the booking been up to snuff, instead it came off as almost a security blanket because it wasn't. Absolutely, how did Roman get over? By being the muscle of the shield, wasting people and letting the others talk so he could look cool in the background. If they'd kept him the mostly silent badass, that would have worked, big brawls and him merking guys have been the times when he's gotten most over since then too. Even after he was tainted, there were times it poked through, after he'd been screwed one too many times and absolutely WAILED on HHH with a chair, he got an amazing pop, people thought "ooo is this a turning point, will the character evolve?" Nope. When he was having crazy battles with Braun, people were turning around, then they'd inject more silliness just in case people were starting to like him.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 27, 2021 3:16:54 GMT -5
I always maintain there was nothing inherently wrong with Reigns keeping the Shield aesthetic. That kind of thing can work (Bret Hart keeping the pink and black from the original Hart Foundation tag team) just as much as it might not (Marty Jannetty being a Rocker any time after 1992). It'd have been a non-issue had the rest of the booking been up to snuff, instead it came off as almost a security blanket because it wasn't. Absolutely, how did Roman get over? By being the muscle of the shield, wasting people and letting the others talk so he could look cool in the background. If they'd kept him the mostly silent badass, that would have worked, big brawls and him merking guys have been the times when he's gotten most over since then too. Even after he was tainted, there were times it poked through, after he'd been screwed one too many times and absolutely WAILED on HHH with a chair, he got an amazing pop, people thought "ooo is this a turning point, will the character evolve?" Nope. When he was having crazy battles with Braun, people were turning around, then they'd inject more silliness just in case people were starting to like him. Weirdly, he actually would get good lines... during matches, shouting. It was when they started forcing promos on him, with lines he had to say like the succotash shit, that the wheels fell off. I guess that's why he has better promos these days, they're not spoon-feeding it to him as hard.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Aug 27, 2021 3:22:59 GMT -5
I always maintain there was nothing inherently wrong with Reigns keeping the Shield aesthetic. That kind of thing can work (Bret Hart keeping the pink and black from the original Hart Foundation tag team) just as much as it might not (Marty Jannetty being a Rocker any time after 1992). It'd have been a non-issue had the rest of the booking been up to snuff, instead it came off as almost a security blanket because it wasn't. Even a lot of the times it's failed, it's never come off quite that way. Marty's a good example because him doing the Rocker schtick solo was really embarrassing, but he at least kept doing the Rocker schtick. He kept the character, there was the essence of something that made sense and Marty himself was a weird f***-up who kept ruining things. With Roman, he kept the music, he kept the look, but what about him was actually still The Shield? He didn't really stand up as an avenging force through his face run the way the Shield had post-face turn, didn't care about anyone else's trouble, the clashes with The Authority were all them vs. Roman instead of him taking the fight to them. Seth and Dean both reinvented, both came back different. I can't even remember if Roman changed his vest for the reunion matches they did. It contributed an audiovisual component to the weird character soup that Roman became. If he'd actually been a Shield tribute act through that period, it would have been less of an issue than what they ran with instead.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Aug 27, 2021 9:00:07 GMT -5
Perhaps I’m making this sound way too one sided, but I feel like Roman Reigns rose to the top organically (2013-2015) and was very much accepted and over with the fans. It was the booking of Rumble 2015 that did him in, and not so much being “shoved down our throats.” That ignores that the dude was getting booed well before the rumble. See, I don’t remember it that way at all.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Aug 27, 2021 9:02:22 GMT -5
My memory was the crowd starting to sour on Roman after the split once Roman started getting thrown right into the title picture while Dean and Seth feuded. It was odd storytelling.
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msc
Dennis Stamp
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Post by msc on Aug 27, 2021 9:10:57 GMT -5
I thought the Bossman stuff was hilarious at the time, but that was a very lonely bandwagon. At the time, his stuff was compared unfavourably to his Hogan era work, and even a lot of that was "reappraised as being rubbish" tbh. But even then, Ray Traylor the guy being super cool was fairly well respected (he did SO much charity work in 1999-2000 when wrestlers didn't get the PR for it), and after his tragic death people started looking back at the late 90s heel Bossman stuff and seeing a lot to enjoy in it.
Reigns run was hurt badly by his 4 month injury layoff from Summerslam 2014 till about December 2014. He lost so much momentum. Also, that Rumble was very badly booked. You want Reigns to get over? You book him as a monster who takes out everyone. I said that here in 2015 and I think its dated well!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2021 9:12:32 GMT -5
That ignores that the dude was getting booed well before the rumble. See, I don’t remember it that way at all. See I'd argue that it was incredibly organic, right up until the Shield split. Then it was a slow turn by the audience, but the Rumble reaction had been building for a while. It was the exclamation point, rather than the beginning.
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Post by Cyno on Aug 27, 2021 9:55:25 GMT -5
What I remember as the turning point for how Roman Reigns was seen by fans was when he won the Slammy Award for being wrestler of the year despite being injured most of it. That started some backlash and fears he'd get a Cena-style superpush. And then it started happening and it went south from there.
The Rumble reaction was weeks in the making.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2021 10:00:21 GMT -5
That ignores that the dude was getting booed well before the Rumble. his general overness greatly diminished post Shield Breakup, Dean/Mox was getting way better crowd reactions than him pretty much from the start of the solo runs. and again... it had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PODCAST.. it was obvious to anyone that was watching that they were grooming Roman to be the next guy before it came out. They literally had him run through an entire Survivor Series team basically by himself, and broke the eliminations record of the Royal Rumble... all before Punk left the company... trying to claim the Podcast made people realize they were pushing him is laughable. I remember him getting booed for winning the Slammy for superstar of the year despite missing a big chunk of it and not really doing anything of note. The Slammys took place after the podcast.
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Blade
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Post by Blade on Aug 27, 2021 10:26:48 GMT -5
Yeah, Roman was steadily being turned against by the fans for months. As others have said, what truly stalled him out was being out for months and then coming back and winning a Slammy when there were obviously better contenders and the crowds were lukewarm to him.
Bluntly, though, it was bound to happen. Even when the crowds liked Roman, they liked Ambrose, Bryan, and Ziggler a lot more. And Roman had neither the chops as a wrestler (how long WWE protected him from ever being in a major singles match was hilarious) or a promo at that point to change that. Eventually WWE's determination to push Roman ahead of everybody else was going to cause the crowd to turn on him; everything else just hastened the inevitable.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Aug 27, 2021 12:01:26 GMT -5
Hogan’s time in WCW pre-NWO is heavily panned, but those shows with Hogan broke nearly every existing PPV and ratings record WCW had.
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Post by James Fabiano on Aug 27, 2021 12:03:59 GMT -5
One I always like:
The people IWCers claim they never liked when I remember the contrary.
Hardcore Holly is probably the patron saint of this.
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Post by James Fabiano on Aug 27, 2021 12:05:15 GMT -5
Also, watching it on YT...
The punchline to the Katie Vick skit got a pop from the crowd.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Aug 27, 2021 12:22:07 GMT -5
Jeff Jarrett was never over, never any good in the ring and was hated by the Mcmahon clan after screwing them over for money.
He was talented and over enough he could get a misogynist gimmick to work AS INTENDED as a heel, at a time people who were mistreating women got face pops because of the garbage nature of the attitude era. He was a good enough hand WCW wanted him, pre Russo and he was getting gigs in major promotions after TNA. He didn't ask for a penny more than he was due when he left the WWF, and put over Chyna when he could have just forfeited the title on his way out and left her dead in the water. When his wife died, Vince was one of the first people to reach out, he was close to Hunter as well, riding with the Kliq back in the day so when he stopped playing promoter, there was a job waiting for him in the WWE.
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Ben Wyatt
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Aug 27, 2021 12:50:37 GMT -5
Jeff Jarrett was never over, never any good in the ring and was hated by the Mcmahon clan after screwing them over for money. He was talented and over enough he could get a misogynist gimmick to work AS INTENDED as a heel, at a time people who were mistreating women got face pops because of the garbage nature of the attitude era. He was a good enough hand WCW wanted him, pre Russo and he was getting gigs in major promotions after TNA. He didn't ask for a penny more than he was due when he left the WWF, and put over Chyna when he could have just forfeited the title on his way out and left her dead in the water. When his wife died, Vince was one of the first people to reach out, he was close to Hunter as well, riding with the Kliq back in the day so when he stopped playing promoter, there was a job waiting for him in the WWE. Maybe it's because he's come off so likable the last few years and Ive softened on him (seriously, I love his podcast. Dude is great) But I really think that he gets a pretty raw deal as a performer, overall. He was a very solid hand who when booked right was good enough to be a credible threat on the bubble of the main event scene or as a challenger on a B PPV. Was his TNA run silly at times with him HHH-ing the title? Sure. Did Russo overpush him in 2000? Yes. But this revisionist history that he was some scrub lucky to be where he was is trash
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Ben Wyatt
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Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,565
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Aug 27, 2021 12:55:08 GMT -5
You want Reigns to get over? You book him as a monster who takes out everyone. I said that here in 2015 and I think its dated well! The really frustrating thing is that there was a window of about a month or so at the end of 2015 where they booked him to *perfection* but they decided to do the nonsense at the Rumble and the 'Mania match rather than see what was working and run with it
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