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Post by Starshine on Dec 9, 2022 14:01:31 GMT -5
Throughout pro wrestling history, there have been a bunch of feuds that were built off of legitimate injuries. None of this is new, you just take the emotion of that moment and intertwine it into the kayfabe of the story.
The match between Mox and Page ended on a complete fluke shot that seriously concussed the latter. Page, being an emotional guy as it is, took exception to this, especially when Mox mocked him directly for it. Let’s also remember that despite pro wrestling kayfabe being a combat sport, the goal is not to hospitalize your opponent in lieu of winning the match. It’s very easy to see why Page is mad, and it would have been a bad move not to capitalize on it.
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Post by TOK Hehe'd Around & Found Out on Dec 9, 2022 14:01:53 GMT -5
You didn't really beat me because you hit me with a wrestling move that left me unable to continue is not a take I understand. Others do, that's cool. Hangman wasn't given the chance to kick out or continue the match. Think of it in kayfabe, Mox knocked Hangman out but in Hangman's eyes he still could have won if the ref didn't immediately stop the match. He's got something to prove and thinks that he should be the champ if given a "fair" chance.
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Post by eJm on Dec 9, 2022 14:07:32 GMT -5
Throughout pro wrestling history, there have been a bunch of feuds that were built off of legitimate injuries. None of this is new, you just take the emotion of that moment and intertwine it into the kayfabe of the story. One of the feuds that got Steve Austin monsterly over was his one with Owen Hart after he broke his neck. And the difference is, he actually pinned Owen! So why would Austin be annoyed that Owen broke his neck, he got the win, didn’t he?
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Post by polarbearpete on Dec 9, 2022 14:50:09 GMT -5
I imagine the feud works best when you think of it as Hangman wanting revenge on Mox for injuring him/mocking him, not as Hangman thinking that he wasn’t legitimately beat because he certainly was.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 9, 2022 15:48:13 GMT -5
You didn't really beat me because you hit me with a wrestling move that left me unable to continue is not a take I understand. Others do, that's cool. Look at it in real combat sports terms. If you get pulled wrong on a submission that you fight out of but it impedes you in some way and later in the match you're determined to not be right, you have lost. If you get punched or your kick gets checked and you break a bone, that's the end. If your eye gets f***ed up and you can't see, that's the end of the fight. You have lost that fight. It is obviously the loss of a fight and nobody would really argue it wasn't unless they were a sore loser. But that doesn't mean they're typical finishes. It's not a submission, not a decision, not a knockout. It's you getting a kind of injured that is very possible, but not really the satisfying and conclusive end to a fight. If someone gets outboxed and they get their lights rocked, yeah, that's a legit ending to the match based on the skill of a winner against a loser. If someone destroys their leg and can't stand, no matter how much that's a real and actual end to the fight, it's not an issue of skill. It's not a matter of someone being the better competitor, it's the human body doing something dramatic and outside of expectation in that moment. You lost the fight. You undeniably lost the fight. Was it satisfying? Does it feel like you were actually bested, or like freak biology responded in a bad way to something that you've done hundreds of times before, and there's that nagging frustration of thinking it could've gone differently? Like this is so normal and so constant through actual combat sports that it's not really some arcane weird wrestling take, it's just actually the model of how these things get treated.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Dec 9, 2022 15:53:20 GMT -5
There's also the fact that it's been established that Hangman's character tends to doubt himself a lot, so you know losing the way he did f***ed with him. Combine that with Mox mocking him for it and it couldn't be an easier angle to understand if you had flashing neon signs explaining it.
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Post by Peeetah on Dec 9, 2022 16:15:34 GMT -5
He got knocked out and he's embarassed, embarassed people lash out. It ain't that deep.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 9, 2022 16:38:23 GMT -5
I wonder if Lance Storm wrote Deaner literally murdering Eric Young to write him out of Impact.
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Dec 9, 2022 19:11:05 GMT -5
You didn't really beat me because you hit me with a wrestling move that left me unable to continue is not a take I understand. Others do, that's cool. Look at it in real combat sports terms. If you get pulled wrong on a submission that you fight out of but it impedes you in some way and later in the match you're determined to not be right, you have lost. If you get punched or your kick gets checked and you break a bone, that's the end. If your eye gets f***ed up and you can't see, that's the end of the fight. You have lost that fight. It is obviously the loss of a fight and nobody would really argue it wasn't unless they were a sore loser. But that doesn't mean they're typical finishes. It's not a submission, not a decision, not a knockout. It's you getting a kind of injured that is very possible, but not really the satisfying and conclusive end to a fight. If someone gets outboxed and they get their lights rocked, yeah, that's a legit ending to the match based on the skill of a winner against a loser. If someone destroys their leg and can't stand, no matter how much that's a real and actual end to the fight, it's not an issue of skill. It's not a matter of someone being the better competitor, it's the human body doing something dramatic and outside of expectation in that moment. You lost the fight. You undeniably lost the fight. Was it satisfying? Does it feel like you were actually bested, or like freak biology responded in a bad way to something that you've done hundreds of times before, and there's that nagging frustration of thinking it could've gone differently? Like this is so normal and so constant through actual combat sports that it's not really some arcane weird wrestling take, it's just actually the model of how these things get treated. I’d push back on that by saying that it was, in the context of the match, a legal move Mox used to injure Hangman. Hangman didn’t get hurt on his own or get hurt by an illegal move. Mox clobbered him with a lariat that left Page unable to continue. So, in pro wrestling terms, Mox was the better man because his move ended the match.
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Dec 9, 2022 19:34:23 GMT -5
It's not like Mox cheated or anything but you could still easily argue he got lucky. Sure, he knocked Hangman out cold on a routine move. That happens and it's legal, but it's certainly unsatisfying; the same thing could've happened with a punch or with a drop toe hold or something, nature of combat, sometimes things just get you. Even if you do think Moxley was definitively the winner there is still makes sense that Hangman would have hang-ups about how it went down and want another crack at Mox after it, and it leaves room for both of them to have something to prove - Mox that he truly was capable of beating Hangman and that it wasn't just a lucky hit and Hangman that he can hang with Mox and that getting injured by him was a freak accident. Even if you take Mox's side on it the story still works both ways.
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Dec 9, 2022 19:44:08 GMT -5
It's not like Mox cheated or anything but you could still easily argue he got lucky. Sure, he knocked Hangman out cold on a routine move. That happens and it's legal, but it's certainly unsatisfying; the same thing could've happened with a punch or with a drop toe hold or something, nature of combat, sometimes things just get you. Even if you do think Moxley was definitively the winner there is still makes sense that Hangman would have hang-ups about how it went down and want another crack at Mox after it, and it leaves room for both of them to have something to prove - Mox that he truly was capable of beating Hangman and that it wasn't just a lucky hit and Hangman that he can hang with Mox and that getting injured by him was a freak accident. Even if you take Mox's side on it the story still works both ways. 100 percent with you. I just think comparing that match to one where it ended off a freak non-contact doesn’t work. I fully understood the segment and completely get why Hangman stepped up ready to fight.
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Post by pinja on Dec 9, 2022 23:57:58 GMT -5
Pro wrestling, while different in how a match ends or can end, is still derivative of amateur wrestling. In amateur wrestling it is not your goal to knock out an opponent and therefore it is not allowed to throw with excessive force. While the pro wrestling rulebook might not say how to exactly throw a clothesline, I have little problem believing that Hangman feels the match ending was unsatisfying because Moxley either used excessive force or hit him at an illegal angle.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 10, 2022 6:10:27 GMT -5
I think the other issue, if we want to get that picky about it, is that yes, Mox hit him with a lariat, but it wasn't the lariat that put Page down: it was a bad landing that ended the match. I know that's splitting hairs, but it's also pro wrestling, where everyone knows it's a work and sometimes we integrate real life situations into the work to give it some extra oomph for the audience, and now the next Hangman/Moxley match will have the story built in that Mox hitting the King Kong Lariat could be decisive and that Hangman's neck may be compromised and it'll end up being awesome.
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Post by polarbearpete on Dec 10, 2022 8:09:55 GMT -5
I think the other issue, if we want to get that picky about it, is that yes, Mox hit him with a lariat, but it wasn't the lariat that put Page down: it was a bad landing that ended the match. I know that's splitting hairs, but it's also pro wrestling, where everyone knows it's a work and sometimes we integrate real life situations into the work to give it some extra oomph for the audience, and now the next Hangman/Moxley match will have the story built in that Mox hitting the King Kong Lariat could be decisive and that Hangman's neck may be compromised and it'll end up being awesome. Wasn’t it actually the lariat that caused a concussion and he didn’t actually hurt his neck on the landing?
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Post by Square on Dec 10, 2022 8:40:56 GMT -5
I've only seen a twitter clip cause rampage isn't ok uk TV for a few more days. Did Page come out and get in a fight with Mox after his match when he's bloodied?
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 10, 2022 8:48:40 GMT -5
Look at it in real combat sports terms. If you get pulled wrong on a submission that you fight out of but it impedes you in some way and later in the match you're determined to not be right, you have lost. If you get punched or your kick gets checked and you break a bone, that's the end. If your eye gets f***ed up and you can't see, that's the end of the fight. You have lost that fight. It is obviously the loss of a fight and nobody would really argue it wasn't unless they were a sore loser. But that doesn't mean they're typical finishes. It's not a submission, not a decision, not a knockout. It's you getting a kind of injured that is very possible, but not really the satisfying and conclusive end to a fight. If someone gets outboxed and they get their lights rocked, yeah, that's a legit ending to the match based on the skill of a winner against a loser. If someone destroys their leg and can't stand, no matter how much that's a real and actual end to the fight, it's not an issue of skill. It's not a matter of someone being the better competitor, it's the human body doing something dramatic and outside of expectation in that moment. You lost the fight. You undeniably lost the fight. Was it satisfying? Does it feel like you were actually bested, or like freak biology responded in a bad way to something that you've done hundreds of times before, and there's that nagging frustration of thinking it could've gone differently? Like this is so normal and so constant through actual combat sports that it's not really some arcane weird wrestling take, it's just actually the model of how these things get treated. I’d push back on that by saying that it was, in the context of the match, a legal move Mox used to injure Hangman. Hangman didn’t get hurt on his own or get hurt by an illegal move. Mox clobbered him with a lariat that left Page unable to continue. So, in pro wrestling terms, Mox was the better man because his move ended the match. It was a legal move, but that doesn't mean the way he got hurt wasn't outside of what normally happens in a pro wrestling match. "I fell bad and got concussed" isn't a normal way a wrestling match ended. No, it's not 1:1 the exact same as someone stepping wrong in an MMA fight and breaking their leg, and in MMA "I fell bad and got concussed" actually is a valid wat for a fight to end. But it's a similar idea. "This isn't the way it's supposed to be and the narrative rules say that this is an unsatisfying result". The spirit of the outcomes is the same, except in wrestling, the ability to quickly turn around and run it back is present in ways that leave a lot of MMA fighters mostly just barking up rematches on twitter and not getting anywhere unless they have the clout to call their own shot.
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Dec 10, 2022 10:02:29 GMT -5
Fighter A wants to avenge a previous loss against Fighter B is a pretty basic concept that you see play out in fiction and reality pretty often
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Post by Cyno on Dec 10, 2022 12:53:23 GMT -5
Mox had a lot of heel mannerisms in his match with Takeshita yesterday. So that makes Storm's whole "they're both faces!" complaint look even stupider than it previously was.
Guy must get an aneurysm watching Tanahashi matches.
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pinja
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Post by pinja on Dec 10, 2022 13:07:16 GMT -5
Mox had a lot of heel mannerisms in his match with Takeshita yesterday. So that makes Storm's whole "they're both faces!" complaint look even stupider than it previously was. Guy must get an aneurysm watching Tanahashi matches. So are they both heels? Because Hangman attacked Moxley right after the match. Let's say they're both and call them "feels", like they hit Lance right in the feels.
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Dec 10, 2022 14:04:10 GMT -5
The other thing that should be mentioned here is that that AEW has seemingly been wanting Mox and Hangman to feud for a while
I remember before Moxley went away for rehab, he did a backstage promo where he seemingly out nowhere threw some shots at Page
Moxley needing to take time off for personal reasons, The entire Muffin Gate Debacle, and Hangman being off TV due to a legit injury during their match has definitely caused this to be drawn out longer and take some detours, but we haven't really seen whatever the original planned outcome was for Page and Moxley
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