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Post by Celexa Bliss 54 on Oct 10, 2023 21:51:24 GMT -5
No one in the thread has said TK should be fired nor Juice for that matter What's mostly been said was this is not a good look TK should fire himself for okaying this.
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Post by eJm on Oct 10, 2023 21:51:38 GMT -5
I do think we still need to take this as a case-by-case thing as opposed to a blanket "If the good guy wins, it's OK" thing. I mean, to cite my earlier example, the good guy (Undertaker) resoundly beat the bad guy (Hassan) after that terrorist gang angle happened. Took him out right of the damn company never to be seen again. But that didn't make the angle preceding it OK, surely. I will say, comparing the two is a bit unfair for various reasons. 1) The WWE segment was taped, nobody was to know that days later, the July 6th bombings would happen. 2) UPN pretty much put a mandate down of no Hassan segments ever again so there wasn't much they could do 3) After all that, the only choice was just to have Hassan lose and put him aside until either the heat died down or you just cut the guy, fairly or not. The only people to really blame here were Sky Sports/UPN for airing it but I don't know whether it was easy to just pull stuff beforehand or how it was done back in 2006 compared to now. I don't even know how much I'd blame WWE for it because it happened literally the day of airing. EDIT: You can blame them for the segment happening but, to be quite blunt, the 00s weren't a good time for nuance about the Middle East after 9/11 (and I say this as a Brit who saw it first hand in our media, too). AEW's one was done live with enough time to change and tweak things and enough people around to either say "Don't do it now" or "Hold it off" and, for whatever reason, that didn't happen. We don't know why it did but those are big differences.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 10, 2023 21:52:10 GMT -5
No one in the thread has said TK should be fired nor Juice for that matter What's mostly been said was this is not a good look Page one someone said "TK should fire himself for oking that", let alone expanding outside of here I'm not disagreeing about the optics at all. But you're focusing on the one person that have said that outside of the many people who have said it wasn't a good look is more so my point. 1-2 people saying TK or Juice should be fired is a major minority compared to people just discussing or saying it was a bad look
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Post by Watch AEW Magnitude on Oct 10, 2023 21:54:03 GMT -5
No one in the thread has said TK should be fired nor Juice for that matter What's mostly been said was this is not a good look TK should fire himself for okaying this. My bad guys I forgot no one ever uses hyperbole. I figured “firing himself” would have been the tip-off. But this is legitimately serious shit that should be discussed, so don’t let my post distract from the actual issues at play.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 10, 2023 21:55:10 GMT -5
I do think we still need to take this as a case-by-case thing as opposed to a blanket "If the good guy wins, it's OK" thing. I mean, to cite my earlier example, the good guy (Undertaker) resoundly beat the bad guy (Hassan) after that terrorist gang angle happened. Took him out right of the damn company never to be seen again. But that didn't make the angle preceding it OK, surely. I will say, comparing the two is a bit unfair for various reasons. 1) The WWE segment was taped, nobody was to know that days later, the July 6th bombings would happen. 2) UPN pretty much put a mandate down of no Hassan segments ever again so there wasn't much they could do 3) After all that, the only choice was just to have Hassan lose and put him aside until either the heat died down or you just cut the guy, fairly or not. The only people to really blame here were Sky Sports/UPN for airing it but I don't know whether it was easy to just pull stuff beforehand or how it was done back in 2006 compared to now. I don't even know how much I'd blame WWE for it because it happened literally the day of airing. AEW's one was done live with enough time to change and tweak things and enough people around to either say "Don't do it now" or "Hold it off" and, for whatever reason, that didn't happen. We don't know why it did but those are big differences. Hassan got done dirty but overall his life turned out well thankfully He became a teacher right?
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Post by yokohamacpfc on Oct 10, 2023 21:55:16 GMT -5
Given how he’s an edgelord heel or face and his ethnicity is an important part of his character’s backstory I’m 90% sure this was MJFs idea.
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Post by eJm on Oct 10, 2023 21:55:45 GMT -5
Hassan got done dirty but overall his life turned out well thankfully He became a teacher right? High School teacher, yeah. Last picture I saw of him, he looked super healthy and well so good for him.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Oct 10, 2023 21:56:07 GMT -5
Page one someone said "TK should fire himself for oking that", let alone expanding outside of here I'm not disagreeing about the optics at all. But you're focusing on the one person that have said that outside of the many people who have said it wasn't a good look is more so my point. 1-2 people saying TK or Juice should be fired is a major minority compared to people just discussing or saying it was a bad look That's a change from your original post of no one said that no? I'm not disagreeing with your main point here as I think most discussion has been civil, but you've legit just contradicted yourself
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Oct 10, 2023 21:56:30 GMT -5
Page one someone said "TK should fire himself for oking that", let alone expanding outside of here I'm not disagreeing about the optics at all. But you're focusing on the one person that have said that outside of the many people who have said it wasn't a good look is more so my point. 1-2 people saying TK or Juice should be fired is a major minority compared to people just discussing or saying it was a bad look Dude I said in my original post who I thought was being overblown and who wasn't The people you're bringing up are the people I said weren't being overblown, I'm not underplaying them or their feelings whatsoever just saying I don't want the thread to be bogged down by anything either I hope the discussion remains relatively civil, I was just sort of clarifying an earlier point was all
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Oct 10, 2023 21:57:22 GMT -5
I get loo,ing at it through the lens of the way it's bad, but I would like to offer the counter, which I think is why this got okayed and was likely even Max's idea to go for in the first place: when the Jewish face overcomes the guy who stands in for the antisemitic bullies of the world, for the grown ass man who will play the same immature games on him that the idiot kids played that map on to the real hatreds of the world, it's going to be the big triumph moment of overcoming the stand-in for that. I don't think things should shy away from sensitive topics just because they're current so long as there's an understanding of how to deliver through on them that isn't simply kicking people when they're down. If their story is "antisemitism loses", if they aren't so stupid as to prey on those things just for heat and pull a Triple H vs. Booker T, then there's room for it. Room for people to be uncomfortable with it too, absolutely, but it's not a story that need inherently be iced on principle. This is exactly my take on it, but more eloquently stated. One of the things wrestling does best is give the audience the catharsis of beating a real-world problem that they can’t actually solve, whether it’s a serious issue issue like war or racism, or something as simple as putting one over on your crappy boss. I’m all in favor of creating that bogeyman so the audience can enjoy watching them get decisively defeated. It’s sticking the landing that’s the most important part, and the last couple of decades of wrestling have not been good about that. Given MJF's efforts in sending up historical Jewish pro wrestlers, such as the Kangaroo Kick also having a non-Aussie root in paying tribute to Abe Coleman, who went by Jewish Tarzan and Hebrew Hercules, I do think this is him trying to give wrestling a story that if it has ever had before, it's had on a very small stage or way way back in the past. MJF's Jewishness is incredibly up front in his character work, in stuff like his "re-bar mitzvah" segment, where "If you don't clap you're antisemitic" was still probably his best throwaway line ever. There's been high profile stories before of wrestlers overcoming bigots in a story before, but it's hard to think of a time that's happened through a Jewish lens. MJF has that opportunity now and there's literally no thought of coincidence in my mind that his very first real feud as a face immediately trucked out that note, with the fact Juice already has it as part of his bit just being the cherry on top. It's not even a question to me that this is MJF's idea and that he's trying to tell a story he's very possibly been dreaming of telling since very, very early into his pro wrestling career.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Oct 10, 2023 21:57:45 GMT -5
My bad guys I forgot no one ever uses hyperbole. I figured “firing himself” would have been the tip-off. But this is legitimately serious shit that should be discussed, so don’t let my post distract from the actual issues at play. I appreciate that you clarified it was a joke post That actually does mean a lot because in a thread like this it's hard to know, all good.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 10, 2023 21:59:14 GMT -5
But you're focusing on the one person that have said that outside of the many people who have said it wasn't a good look is more so my point. 1-2 people saying TK or Juice should be fired is a major minority compared to people just discussing or saying it was a bad look That's a change from your original post of no one said that no? I'm not disagreeing with your main point here as I think most discussion has been civil, but you've legit just contradicted yourself Okay I said no one and one was pointed out, fair and I was wrong But was talking the main point of how that is not the overarching message of not everyone or a ton of people saying TK or Juice should be fired on here to be clear. Outside of here I have no clue
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Post by Mayonnaise on Oct 10, 2023 22:00:40 GMT -5
I...I didn't even think of the racial aspect of it or remembered a promo from how long ago (until commentary mentioned it). I just thought of Juice using a roll of quarters to KO people regularly and threatening to do that to Max as he took Max's last prize.
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Post by Celexa Bliss 54 on Oct 10, 2023 22:01:13 GMT -5
My bad guys I forgot no one ever uses hyperbole. I figured “firing himself” would have been the tip-off. But this is legitimately serious shit that should be discussed, so don’t let my post distract from the actual issues at play. For the record, I'm not calling you out because of what you said, I was simply pointing Cap in the direction of the post they didn't see/missed/whatever. I do think some people are blowing this way out of proportion, though. No, the segment should not have aired and I understand why people are offended/upset by it. But there are some people who are going out of their way to act like this was some big antisemitic angle when that's not what it was. It was Juice doing his roll of quarters gimmick, while at the same time referencing MJF's well-documented past trauma. It's not even about religion, it's about getting under MJF's skin, which they did, and making him sympathetic, which he was.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Oct 10, 2023 22:02:24 GMT -5
That's a change from your original post of no one said that no? I'm not disagreeing with your main point here as I think most discussion has been civil, but you've legit just contradicted yourself Okay I said no one and one was pointed out, fair and I was wrong But was talking the main point of how that is not the overarching message of not everyone or a ton of people saying TK or Juice should be fired on here to be clear. Outside of here I have no clue You're good, mainly I was talking about the other point, and that trying to correlate that they legit tried to use the current ongoing events as heat for their program, was completely ridiculous, and did actively take away from the discussion The rest of the thread though? No one here's really said anything wrong, just how they feel, and that's all good.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Oct 10, 2023 22:02:36 GMT -5
I would have at least waited a week to do it.
Yes, roll of quarter punches are Juice's thing, that's well established.
Yes, playing on his childhood bullying to fire MJF up as a babyface is perfect way to crank up the intensity and allow MJF to take down the group of bullies.
Yes, I'm sure everyone signed off on it.
But 900+ Jews were murdered in Israel less than five days ago in the single largest anti-Semitic attack in 50+ years. This has been followed by the echoing ripple effect of social media relentlessly spreading inescapable abhorrent ghastly perspectives.
Terrible timing coupled with the terrible optics of having a Jewish last name written on the roll of quarters.
I don't think Juice Robinson or the Bang Bang Gang, IRL or in Kayfabe, is/are anti-Semetic - but just terrible timing and they shouldn't have done it tonight.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Oct 10, 2023 22:02:53 GMT -5
That's a change from your original post of no one said that no? I'm not disagreeing with your main point here as I think most discussion has been civil, but you've legit just contradicted yourself Okay I said no one and one was pointed out, fair and I was wrong But was talking the main point of how that is not the overarching message of not everyone or a ton of people saying TK or Juice should be fired on here to be clear. Outside of here I have no clue And in general I agree with you. The discussion here overall has been fine and more about timing and also agree it's a discussion worth having.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 10, 2023 22:03:10 GMT -5
My bad guys I forgot no one ever uses hyperbole. I figured “firing himself” would have been the tip-off. But this is legitimately serious shit that should be discussed, so don’t let my post distract from the actual issues at play. For the record, I'm not calling you out because of what you said, I was simply pointing Cap in the direction of the post they didn't see/missed/whatever. I do think some people are blowing this way out of proportion, though. No, the segment should not have aired and I understand why people are offended/upset by it. But there are some people who are going out of their way to act like this was some big antisemitic angle when that's not what it was. It was Juice doing his roll of quarters gimmick, while at the same time referencing MJF's well-documented past trauma. It's not even about religion, it's about getting under MJF's skin, which they did, and making him sympathetic, which he was. Which is all I was saying on here. I should have been more clear than to say no one but was just saying the hyperbole of TK shouldn't be fired hasn't been said on here as the main message
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Post by ben:friendship frog on Oct 10, 2023 22:05:39 GMT -5
I understand the idea of a heroic Jewish babyface coming through in the end, but with things as they are right now it just needed shelving for a bit. Tensions are so high already and now you have basically handed a reference for bullies to use at school, or wherever else, tomorrow at a time when the targets of those jokes are already understandably very upset.
Maybe I'm way overthinking it but it's just so unnecessary. You can tell the same story without that.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Oct 10, 2023 22:07:53 GMT -5
Pretty much that, I get it looked uncomfortable for some people(and also bad timing) but this is leading to Juice getting his comeuppance next week, besides we will also get to see Max Caster getting character development. I do think we still need to take this as a case-by-case thing as opposed to a blanket "If the good guy wins, it's OK" thing. I mean, to cite my earlier example, the good guy (Undertaker) resoundly beat the bad guy (Hassan) after that terrorist gang angle happened. Took him out right of the damn company never to be seen again. But that didn't make the angle preceding it OK, surely. The big nuance points for me would be that a) Undertaker was actually fighting real terrorists instead of just guys who vaguely didn't like America, which has much more specific implications about the story being told 2) Hassan's character going from guy who is unfairly a victim of bigotry simply for being Muslim to being just actually a terrorist The driving complaint was always that they made the Muslim character (not even wrestler but just character) into a terrorist and undermined anything the character was meant to try and be. The bad guy losing is good, and in theory the terrorist can lose just like the racist can, but WWE told a story with absolutely horrible undertones and turned the Muslim guy into a terrorist in ways that echoed a lot of very incorrect but very substantial fears around western culture at the time that were themselves bigoted. I think we need ot move away from just the concept of "bombings and the Middle East" for comparisons on this topic if we want to engage with it in reasonable terms. This is way, way closer in reality to Harley Race telling Ron Simmons he 'didn't belong in the title picture' while acting as the manager to Vader, who Simmons went on to beat to become the second black man to ever win a world heavyweight title. This really doesn't have any parallel to the Hassan story and I don't think it'll be uttered in the same city as that storyline in any situation other than literally right now when tensions are this high.
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