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Post by Jason Todd Grisham on Mar 9, 2010 15:02:53 GMT -5
RVD debuts in TNA, gets a quick pin, then is beaten senselessly. I don't care if you're trying to put Sting over as a heel, you don't make the big debut look like a chump. You also don't make one of your bigger stars in the company look like a chump, and that's what would have happened if Sting didn't go nutso on RVD. This isn't a zero sum game. You can make Sting look like a heel without making RVD look stupid, and you can make RVD look like a million bucks without sacrificing Sting's heeldom. That's what's mindboggling about this.
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Post by superclash on Mar 9, 2010 15:05:37 GMT -5
He wasn't talking about RVD specifically, he was making fun of the people who booked that segment.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Mar 9, 2010 15:09:26 GMT -5
Here's the thing for me. RVD is my favorite wrestler, so naturally I didn't really enjoy him getting beat down in his debut. However, I understood the logic behind it and thought it was the perfect way to make people turn on Sting. As I said in another thread last night, Sting kicking the crap out of Jay Lethal wouldn't have cut it. It needed to be someone who was that over with the crowd.
I also appreciated the fact that Van Dam kept getting up and trying to attack Sting, despite getting whacked around with a bat. If TNA was really trying to make him look bad, they would have told him to lay motionless in the ring after the first couple of shots. He never, ever stopped trying to get back to his feet.
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Post by Michael Coello on Mar 9, 2010 15:11:27 GMT -5
You also don't make one of your bigger stars in the company look like a chump, and that's what would have happened if Sting didn't go nutso on RVD. This isn't a zero sum game. You can make Sting look like a heel without making RVD look stupid, and you can make RVD look like a million bucks without sacrificing Sting's heeldom. That's what's mindboggling about this. But it works for both. You have Sting finally getting over as a heel, RVD and you have the crowd there, waiting to see RVD get even over it on another time. A lot of the hate seems to be that RVD didn't get over in the here and now, and people not wanting to wait a week or so to see RVD get back at Sting.
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comahan
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Post by comahan on Mar 9, 2010 15:14:55 GMT -5
RVD is a guy that, no matter what you do to him, will be just as popular next week as he was last week. He could lose cleanly to Lacey Von Erich in a 5 minute botchfest and it wouldnt hurt his popularity. I thought it was a great idea to transfer his debut face heat into heel heat on Sting.
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Post by Jason Todd Grisham on Mar 9, 2010 15:16:25 GMT -5
A lot of the hate seems to be that RVD didn't get over in the here and now, and people not wanting to wait a week or so to see RVD get back at Sting. A debut is important, and I can tell you that if someone knew little about RVD, and just got into this whole wrestling thing checking out TNA, they wouldn't see the big deal with the guy. It works for the smarky iMPACT Zone crowd, and the smarks watching TNA, but there is no logic for marks, where most of the audience is anyway.
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"Magic" Mark Hurr
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Post by "Magic" Mark Hurr on Mar 9, 2010 15:19:02 GMT -5
Remember when RVD came back and beat Santino. Of course Santino is no Sting and Santino being beaten so quick makes sense, but is was for a one time only RVD appearance in his hometown. It made sense for RVD to go over and for Santino to look like a loser.
Now if WWE wanted to get Santino over or attempt to, could they have had Santino go crazy on RVD. It would have gotten him a great reaction. Even if he did, would we or the fans buy it? If it was about putting Santino over any way they can past a comedic roll, would we respect the attempt even if it meant RVD catching an ass whipping?
We all know how over RVD is and it was STING of all people who took him out. This was about turning Sting heel and debuting RVD on the same night differently than noormal. We should be mad if they don't follow up on this not that it happened. I for once welcome that it wasn't just an RVD return that didn't involve the usual win and celebrate strategy.
TNA does have a track record with fumbles but I'm gonna wait and see what they do next with this before I call it a fail.
It's about how TNA solves the equation they just set up.
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Post by Michael Coello on Mar 9, 2010 15:22:03 GMT -5
A lot of the hate seems to be that RVD didn't get over in the here and now, and people not wanting to wait a week or so to see RVD get back at Sting. A debut is important, and I can tell you that if someone knew little about RVD, and just got into this whole wrestling thing checking out TNA, they wouldn't see the big deal with the guy. It works for the smarky iMPACT Zone crowd, and the smarks watching TNA, but there is no logic for marks, where most of the audience is anyway. Except this isn't about someone who didn't know RVD. This is not like Pope or Wolfe. This is RVD, the guy Tenay was billing as the hottest free agent, so the idea is that you know who RVD is and his history.
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Post by Jason Todd Grisham on Mar 9, 2010 15:26:43 GMT -5
A debut is important, and I can tell you that if someone knew little about RVD, and just got into this whole wrestling thing checking out TNA, they wouldn't see the big deal with the guy. It works for the smarky iMPACT Zone crowd, and the smarks watching TNA, but there is no logic for marks, where most of the audience is anyway. Except this isn't about someone who didn't know RVD. This is not like Pope or Wolfe. This is RVD, the guy Tenay was billing as the hottest free agent, so the idea is that you know who RVD is and his history. And how many people are going to use the logic that "this guy is cool, I like his matches" as opposed to "well, he just got punked." It does matter how he is treated from here on out, but it's not exactly an auspicious start to feed him to a 50 year old man who may retire in a year just so that he can become a heel for some reason.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 15:29:27 GMT -5
Couldn't they have brought Sting back next week?
Or bring in RVD next week?
Why not save something for later instead of shoot their wad in one shot. RVD would have been better if they pimped him coming to TNA on the 3/15 show instead.
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hollywood
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Post by hollywood on Mar 9, 2010 15:30:50 GMT -5
I'm inclined to agree with Jericho here.
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Post by Michael Coello on Mar 9, 2010 15:34:41 GMT -5
Except this isn't about someone who didn't know RVD. This is not like Pope or Wolfe. This is RVD, the guy Tenay was billing as the hottest free agent, so the idea is that you know who RVD is and his history. And how many people are going to use the logic that "this guy is cool, I like his matches" as opposed to "well, he just got punked." It does matter how he is treated from here on out, but it's not exactly an auspicious start to feed him to a 50 year old man who may retire in a year just so that he can become a heel for some reason. Seems the problem here isn't that RVD got beaten, but got beat by a guy you don't see anything in. This isn't a guy who can't go anymore. sting has shown time and again he can still wrestle and go beyond that. Sting is far from some broken down old guy. Plus, RVD would be considered punked out if he lost to Sting and got bet down. Dude won, and got cheap shotted, kept getting up and pissed of Sting. That's not getting punked out.
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Post by poi zen rana on Mar 9, 2010 15:34:56 GMT -5
Couldn't they have brought Sting back next week? Or bring in RVD next week? Why not save something for later instead of shoot their wad in one shot. RVD would have been better if they pimped him coming to TNA on the 3/15 show instead. If they pimped RVD coming to TNA later wouldn't that be "wait and see" booking that you said they need to avoid?
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Post by Jason Todd Grisham on Mar 9, 2010 15:36:44 GMT -5
And how many people are going to use the logic that "this guy is cool, I like his matches" as opposed to "well, he just got punked." It does matter how he is treated from here on out, but it's not exactly an auspicious start to feed him to a 50 year old man who may retire in a year just so that he can become a heel for some reason. Seems the problem here isn't that RVD got beaten, but got beat by a guy you don't see anything in. This isn't a guy who can't go anymore. sting has shown time and again he can still wrestle and go beyond that. Sting is far from some broken down old guy. Plus, RVD would be considered punked out if he lost to Sting and got bet down. Dude won, and got cheap shotted, kept getting up and pissed of Sting. That's not getting punked out. No, the problem is that a major acquisition was beaten down on his debut with murky reasoning behind it.
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Post by Michael Coello on Mar 9, 2010 15:40:56 GMT -5
Seems the problem here isn't that RVD got beaten, but got beat by a guy you don't see anything in. This isn't a guy who can't go anymore. sting has shown time and again he can still wrestle and go beyond that. Sting is far from some broken down old guy. Plus, RVD would be considered punked out if he lost to Sting and got bet down. Dude won, and got cheap shotted, kept getting up and pissed of Sting. That's not getting punked out. No, the problem is that a major acquisition was beaten down on his debut with murky reasoning behind it. It's not real hard to understand. Sting went nuts earlier, for reasons he knows. Dixie puts him in a match, RVD comes in and beats him, Sting is pissed and beats him up, RVD keeps getting up, which causes Sting to go back and beat him up more. The only real murky thing is why Sting is heel in the first place, and that's the whole point of it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 15:41:36 GMT -5
Couldn't they have brought Sting back next week? Or bring in RVD next week? Why not save something for later instead of shoot their wad in one shot. RVD would have been better if they pimped him coming to TNA on the 3/15 show instead. If they pimped RVD coming to TNA later wouldn't that be "wait and see" booking that you said they need to avoid? I thought we cleared this up in the previous thread? "Wait and see" refers to the idea of something seeming like a stupid idea at first, but people saying - "Well hold on, let's see where this goes." Like when they brought in Sean Morely and had Daniels lose to him. Some people screamed about how ridiculous that was, but others said, "Wait and see - they'll do something big with Morely." Now Morely is gone so we saw what happened. Letting RVD squash Sting is a terrible idea, it could have been a competitive match or just longer than 30 seconds - but people right now are saying, "Well now - let's wait and see where they go with this . . . "
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hollywood
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Post by hollywood on Mar 9, 2010 15:42:59 GMT -5
TNA's a murky place.
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Post by Jason Todd Grisham on Mar 9, 2010 15:44:43 GMT -5
No, the problem is that a major acquisition was beaten down on his debut with murky reasoning behind it. It's not real hard to understand. Sting went nuts earlier, for reasons he knows. Dixie puts him in a match, RVD comes in and beats him, Sting is pissed and beats him up, RVD keeps getting up, which causes Sting to go back and beat him up more. The only real murky thing is why Sting is heel in the first place, and that's the whole point of it. What's murky is 1. How does RVD benefit? 2. How does Sting benefit? 3. How does TNA benefit? RVD seems to benefit from nothing. Sting only benefits by cementing his heel turn, and who knows what that means in the iMPACT Zone, and besides... it's Sting. Does he really need to go heel? And is it really as shocking as a Hogan turn or if Cena were to eventually turn? So the real question is is whether this somehow benefits TNA in the long run by adding another heel, or if it fits in an overall angle TNA wants. And like I said, the long run won't be that long because he may retire in a year. That's why the reasoning is murky.
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Post by poi zen rana on Mar 9, 2010 15:48:21 GMT -5
Ah I guess I misunderstood.
I still think this has an equal chance to turn out good as it does bad. With all the cries about how Sting/RVD was handled, it is still getting a huge amount of praise so I don't think they ruined either guy
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Post by Michael Coello on Mar 9, 2010 15:48:43 GMT -5
It's not real hard to understand. Sting went nuts earlier, for reasons he knows. Dixie puts him in a match, RVD comes in and beats him, Sting is pissed and beats him up, RVD keeps getting up, which causes Sting to go back and beat him up more. The only real murky thing is why Sting is heel in the first place, and that's the whole point of it. What's murky is 1. How does RVD benefit? 2. How does Sting benefit? 3. How does TNA benefit? RVD seems to benefit from nothing. Sting only benefits by cementing his heel turn, and who knows what that means in the iMPACT Zone, and besides... it's Sting. Does he really need to go heel? And is it really as shocking as a Hogan turn or if Cena were to eventually turn? So the real question is is whether this somehow benefits TNA in the long run by adding another heel, or if it fits in an overall angle TNA wants. And like I said, the long run won't be that long because he may retire in a year. That's why the reasoning is murky. What do you man you don't see how anyone benefits? RVD has his first feud, with Sting no less, in the company, Sting finally establishes himself as a heel and generates buzz, and TNA can benefit by having these two go after one another.
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