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Post by poi zen rana on Mar 10, 2010 20:46:10 GMT -5
It was definitely a burial. The focus immediately went to Hogan and Sting, with Rob as little more than an afterthought. Jericho knows what he's talking about, and so does Lance Storm. and yet the fans seemed to still care about RVD so while burial is a subjective term and many opinions are held on it, it still didn't seem to hurt TNA that much. That is just how I see it
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Post by jobsquad on Mar 10, 2010 20:48:46 GMT -5
You guys have to understand that burial is losing TV time or being phased out intentionally. They are not doing this to RVD. Instead they are simply trying to set something up, but they are making several mistakes by not following the wrestling formula in their spots.
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MrBRulzOK
Wade Wilson
Mr No-Pants Heathen
Something Witty Here.
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Post by MrBRulzOK on Mar 10, 2010 21:03:44 GMT -5
You know, it's not like Hogan stuck his nose in it for nothing. The whole beginning of the show had Sting come in for the shock of beating up Abyss and Hogan. You think Hogan is suppose to just lay back and take it when Sting comes back out and attacks someone else? People act like you can't fit 3 people in a feud and make it work. Plus, Lance Storm has done the same thing before, going on about how someone was buried in a feud one week, since they got beat down and berated. The next week, the team that got attacked fired back and took action. The lesson Lance, as well as others who claim it was a burial, should learn is some patience. The sad truth though is that most wrestling fans these days just don't have that kind of patience. They expect exactly what the name says: Total Nonstop Action, and while Sting beating Van Dam senseless was... nonstop, it's also makes him come off as a joke for continuing to get up over and over again rather than just lie down so he doesn't take any abuse. Not the action I imagine people had in mind. The times have changed and this isn't the 80's era anymore despite who seems to be headlining the show at the moment. Not to mention first impressions are everything and honestly if the first impression is Rob Van Dam being beaten with a baseball bat repeatedly after a total fluke win and than vanishing into nothingness while the focus is shifted over to Old Man Hogan, you can't really blame people for being a bit leery of what to expect. And why should they come back to see what happens? Who wants to support some moron who kept asking for more punishment by getting up? I don't care if it's John Cena getting whacked, anytime someone gets beaten for five minutes straight without any semblance of a come back, that's a burial. That's not to say things aren't salvageable, but it's gonna take quite a bit of rehab for Van Dam to recover.
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Post by Michael Coello on Mar 10, 2010 21:14:57 GMT -5
You know, it's not like Hogan stuck his nose in it for nothing. The whole beginning of the show had Sting come in for the shock of beating up Abyss and Hogan. You think Hogan is suppose to just lay back and take it when Sting comes back out and attacks someone else? People act like you can't fit 3 people in a feud and make it work. Plus, Lance Storm has done the same thing before, going on about how someone was buried in a feud one week, since they got beat down and berated. The next week, the team that got attacked fired back and took action. The lesson Lance, as well as others who claim it was a burial, should learn is some patience. The sad truth though is that most wrestling fans these days just don't have that kind of patience. They expect exactly what the name says: Total Nonstop Action, and while Sting beating Van Dam senseless was... nonstop, it's also makes him come off as a joke for continuing to get up over and over again rather than just lie down so he doesn't take any abuse. Not the action I imagine people had in mind. The times have changed and this isn't the 80's era anymore despite who seems to be headlining the show at the moment. Not to mention first impressions are everything and honestly if the first impression is Rob Van Dam being beaten with a baseball bat repeatedly after a total fluke win and than vanishing into nothingness while the focus is shifted over to Old Man Hogan, you can't really blame people for being a bit leery of what to expect. And why should they come back to see what happens? Who wants to support some moron who kept asking for more punishment by getting up? I don't care if it's John Cena getting whacked, anytime someone gets beaten for five minutes straight without any semblance of a come back, that's a burial. That's not to say things aren't salvageable, but it's gonna take quite a bit of rehab for Van Dam to recover. What you are calling "coming off as a joke", others see as a show of guts. The thing is, people are making the argument that RVD is pretty much a goner now, like he has no opportunity to come back. They don't see the benefit with Sting going from "It's a WCW turn all over again" to "That's a Sting turn done RIGHT!", or see how it might lead to other things down the line. It seems short sighted, especially from people like Lance or Jericho, who should really know better by now. I just find it funny how there is this real outcry of how crash TV style is horrible and yet, if you're view of fans having no patience is true, the only thing that would appease fans is crash TV style.
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Post by jobsquad on Mar 10, 2010 21:19:43 GMT -5
The sad truth though is that most wrestling fans these days just don't have that kind of patience. They expect exactly what the name says: Total Nonstop Action, and while Sting beating Van Dam senseless was... nonstop, it's also makes him come off as a joke for continuing to get up over and over again rather than just lie down so he doesn't take any abuse. Not the action I imagine people had in mind. The times have changed and this isn't the 80's era anymore despite who seems to be headlining the show at the moment. Not to mention first impressions are everything and honestly if the first impression is Rob Van Dam being beaten with a baseball bat repeatedly after a total fluke win and than vanishing into nothingness while the focus is shifted over to Old Man Hogan, you can't really blame people for being a bit leery of what to expect. And why should they come back to see what happens? Who wants to support some moron who kept asking for more punishment by getting up? I don't care if it's John Cena getting whacked, anytime someone gets beaten for five minutes straight without any semblance of a come back, that's a burial. That's not to say things aren't salvageable, but it's gonna take quite a bit of rehab for Van Dam to recover. What you are calling "coming off as a joke", others see as a show of guts. The thing is, people are making the argument that RVD is pretty much a goner now, like he has no opportunity to come back. They don't see the benefit with Sting going from "It's a WCW turn all over again" to "That's a Sting turn done RIGHT!", or see how it might lead to other things down the line. It seems short sighted, especially from people like Lance or Jericho, who should really know better by now. I just find it funny how there is this real outcry of how crash TV style is horrible and yet, if you're view of fans having no patience is true, the only thing that would appease fans is crash TV style. People like Storm and Jericho are talking from a wrestling perspective; you never do a spot that way for most of the reasons already listed. However, RVD is an established star. It could be seen like he is resuming his career and doesn't need that debut spot, so they just went with the Sting spot. It was just done horribly wrong from the point where Sting saved the faces from a regular 2 on 2 beatdown in which noone used weapons. If it means anything to you, Stings comeback spot and turn was way worse than his RVD spot.
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Post by Michael Coello on Mar 10, 2010 21:35:50 GMT -5
Not really, cause you keep saying it's wrong, but don't really explain how.
Sting went heel, people booed Sting, RVD has reasons to attack Sting, thus get cheered for attacking heel Sting, and yet it's wrong cause RVD didn't do it the second Sting laid a bat on him?
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MrBRulzOK
Wade Wilson
Mr No-Pants Heathen
Something Witty Here.
Posts: 26,719
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Post by MrBRulzOK on Mar 10, 2010 21:36:14 GMT -5
The sad truth though is that most wrestling fans these days just don't have that kind of patience. They expect exactly what the name says: Total Nonstop Action, and while Sting beating Van Dam senseless was... nonstop, it's also makes him come off as a joke for continuing to get up over and over again rather than just lie down so he doesn't take any abuse. Not the action I imagine people had in mind. The times have changed and this isn't the 80's era anymore despite who seems to be headlining the show at the moment. Not to mention first impressions are everything and honestly if the first impression is Rob Van Dam being beaten with a baseball bat repeatedly after a total fluke win and than vanishing into nothingness while the focus is shifted over to Old Man Hogan, you can't really blame people for being a bit leery of what to expect. And why should they come back to see what happens? Who wants to support some moron who kept asking for more punishment by getting up? I don't care if it's John Cena getting whacked, anytime someone gets beaten for five minutes straight without any semblance of a come back, that's a burial. That's not to say things aren't salvageable, but it's gonna take quite a bit of rehab for Van Dam to recover. What you are calling "coming off as a joke", others see as a show of guts. The thing is, people are making the argument that RVD is pretty much a goner now, like he has no opportunity to come back. They don't see the benefit with Sting going from "It's a WCW turn all over again" to "That's a Sting turn done RIGHT!", or see how it might lead to other things down the line. It seems short sighted, especially from people like Lance or Jericho, who should really know better by now. I just find it funny how there is this real outcry of how crash TV style is horrible and yet, if you're view of fans having no patience is true, the only thing that would appease fans is crash TV style. What I meant by no patience is that if something is horrible in their eyes, most of them won't stick around to see what happens next. Just take a look at what happened on last week's show when the ratings sunk and sunk with each passing segment that made Hogan out as a washed up geezer who might get crippled. Honestly, who wants to see that? Now if the angle is going well and people are interested in it, than I imagine they'd be more than happy to stick around and see how things turn out. For example a few years back TNA actually did a hell of a job promoting Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe at Lockdown, certainly better than how they promote most matches. That actually managed to keep people interested enough to purchase the show. Do you think that same thing would have happened if Kurt Angle destroyed Samoa Joe the first week of the feud with a baseball bat for what seemed like forever and made him out as a fool?
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Post by Michael Coello on Mar 10, 2010 21:44:06 GMT -5
What you are calling "coming off as a joke", others see as a show of guts. The thing is, people are making the argument that RVD is pretty much a goner now, like he has no opportunity to come back. They don't see the benefit with Sting going from "It's a WCW turn all over again" to "That's a Sting turn done RIGHT!", or see how it might lead to other things down the line. It seems short sighted, especially from people like Lance or Jericho, who should really know better by now. I just find it funny how there is this real outcry of how crash TV style is horrible and yet, if you're view of fans having no patience is true, the only thing that would appease fans is crash TV style. What I meant by no patience is that if something is horrible in their eyes, most of them won't stick around to see what happens next. Just take a look at what happened on last week's show when the ratings sunk and sunk with each passing segment that made Hogan out as a washed up geezer who might get crippled. Honestly, who wants to see that? Now if the angle is going well and people are interested in it, than I imagine they'd be more than happy to stick around and see how things turn out. For example a few years back TNA actually did a hell of a job promoting Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe at Lockdown, certainly better than how they promote most matches. That actually managed to keep people interested enough to purchase the show. Do you think that same thing would have happened if Kurt Angle destroyed Samoa Joe the first week of the feud with a baseball bat for what seemed like forever and made him out as a fool? You also forget that in recent history, the return of the Screwjob in TNA, the angle that caused so many people here to call it horrible and stupid, to have no patience for the ending, to make people stop watching.....got big ratings on the show it happened on, and had high ratings on the episode with the resolution billed on it. Just cause you don't want to see Hogan don't mean others don't want to see Hogan. Also, you forget that a lot of the build in Kurt vs. Joe involved one guy getting beat down or humiliated one week.
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Post by jobsquad on Mar 10, 2010 21:57:48 GMT -5
Not really, cause you keep saying it's wrong, but don't really explain how. Sting went heel, people booed Sting, RVD has reasons to attack Sting, thus get cheered for attacking heel Sting, and yet it's wrong cause RVD didn't do it the second Sting laid a bat on him? I apologize, I explained it that night, and it seemed like no one really cared in the how, and Storm did a pretty good job explaining it, which was pretty much what I said. Anyway: Sting appears when Flair/Styles 'legally' get control of the match. If you want your faces to look strong, you would have logically done the spot with a big opening that led to AJ/Flair grabbing a weapon or something to gain the advantage. Then have the Sting spot happen. Then it leads to the no DQ match since AJ and Flair started it with the weapons. The first thing Hogan needs to say is something about Sting, since that was the main point of the spot, with the secondary goal to set up the no DQ match. Sting/Dixie was good, despite her acting ability. I really thought she did good. Anyway, the RVD set up was cool, and being tossed into an angle was fine. Preferably he hits the frog splash to give Sting something to sell while he plays to the crowd, does his 'RVD' shtick, then let Sting do the attack. I didn't have a problem with this part of the spot, but you need that RVD playing to the crowd for him to completely get over. Hogan coming out to confront Sting should have been canned. It was irrelevant except to put Hogan and to a lesser extent Sting over. Poor RVD is stuck looking like an asshole. Then the main event spot: No comment on the match, it was the best they could do, and good finish. I see Storm's point with the show ending right there, but if they are booking towards other things, then the Pope/Desmond run in is fine, but when Pope hits the ring, he should of cleaned house, since he was the last guy out, the face equalizer. So, we have 3 vs 3, yet the heels overpower the faces. Then Hardy comes out to make the save. So, it takes 4 faces to beat three heals. It is just not the right way to do the spot. Then there is the complaint of sticking 2 weeks worth of stuff in one show. Let's say, for arguments sake, they switched Sting and Hardy around. Hardy makes the save at the beginning assuming the heels have the faces in a position worth saving. He is there, he leaves through the crowd in some Hardy fashion. Then lets say at the end of the last match, Sting comes out, all the heels run, then he does the turn and lays out Hogan, Abyss, Pope. Now we have a big reason to tune in next week because the show is left at a cliffhanger. Debut RVD against a guy offering an open challenge to anyone in the building, let them have a real match, RVD goes over, and bam, the setup for next week is complete. Then have the Sting/Dixie spot go down, which leads to the RVD match, which leads to the beatdown, and even Hogan if they wanted to do it that way to set something else up. Your right though, it did accomplish what it intended, it just did not do it correctly. Doing it the right way would have led to more things down the road, which is why people tune in, right?
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Post by Michael Coello on Mar 10, 2010 22:30:02 GMT -5
Sting appears when Flair/Styles 'legally' get control of the match. If you want your faces to look strong, you would have logically done the spot with a big opening that led to AJ/Flair grabbing a weapon or something to gain the advantage. Then have the Sting spot happen. Then it leads to the no DQ match since AJ and Flair started it with the weapons. The first thing Hogan needs to say is something about Sting, since that was the main point of the spot, with the secondary goal to set up the no DQ match. The thing was, the Sting thing was a short moment, and then he walked away. Flair and AJ were beating down Hogan before, and they proceed to beat them down after with weapons and such. That lead to Hogan putting them first, since Sting wasn't around, and Flair and AJ were more immediate threats, especially with their history. Then, after, you deal with Sting, since it's less known why and not as established as the Flair/AJ deal. It wasn't pointless to bring Hogan out. Hogan was attacked before, and he saw an opening with Sting going after RVD. It's the same as when Angle cam out after Anderson when he was going for the Global title. It wasn't about Angle, it was about Terry, but Angle had some payback to deliver to Anderson, and he figured it was the best time. The difference here was there wasn't security hampering him like Hogan. Plus, I wouldn't personally say this, but if RVD hit his big finisher, and Sting didn't really sell it big, it would be considered making his finisher weak. The short match, you at least set up as Sting not being prepared, with RVD coming from the crowd, catching Sting with the big kick, and hitting the Thunder to keep him down for the 3. At least you have that to explain why Sting could recover and how it would be different if they faced off again. Except Pope was not only weakened by the attack on him earlier by Wolfe, but he still has that injury on his leg from Flair and AJ targeting it a few days back. So, he wasn't in a good position to fight back. Jeff made sense, since he was the 100% guy to clean house while everyone else was suffering from something that prohibited them from going full tilt. Except I don't think Sting would have worked the same if it was different. The attack on RVD worked. Plus, if Hardy came out first, how would you lead to a No DQ match if the heels don't have the opportunity to attack and lead to that match like they did after Sting came in. I know some of the things you're getting at, and they do have points, but I just don't see it as wrong. Still, that's just my view, so I'm not sure if it's worth much. I just know it kept my attention and made sense to me.
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Post by jobsquad on Mar 10, 2010 23:29:56 GMT -5
Sting appears when Flair/Styles 'legally' get control of the match. If you want your faces to look strong, you would have logically done the spot with a big opening that led to AJ/Flair grabbing a weapon or something to gain the advantage. Then have the Sting spot happen. Then it leads to the no DQ match since AJ and Flair started it with the weapons. The first thing Hogan needs to say is something about Sting, since that was the main point of the spot, with the secondary goal to set up the no DQ match. The thing was, the Sting thing was a short moment, and then he walked away. Flair and AJ were beating down Hogan before, and they proceed to beat them down after with weapons and such. That lead to Hogan putting them first, since Sting wasn't around, and Flair and AJ were more immediate threats, especially with their history. Then, after, you deal with Sting, since it's less known why and not as established as the Flair/AJ deal. It wasn't pointless to bring Hogan out. Hogan was attacked before, and he saw an opening with Sting going after RVD. It's the same as when Angle cam out after Anderson when he was going for the Global title. It wasn't about Angle, it was about Terry, but Angle had some payback to deliver to Anderson, and he figured it was the best time. The difference here was there wasn't security hampering him like Hogan. Plus, I wouldn't personally say this, but if RVD hit his big finisher, and Sting didn't really sell it big, it would be considered making his finisher weak. The short match, you at least set up as Sting not being prepared, with RVD coming from the crowd, catching Sting with the big kick, and hitting the Thunder to keep him down for the 3. At least you have that to explain why Sting could recover and how it would be different if they faced off again. Except Pope was not only weakened by the attack on him earlier by Wolfe, but he still has that injury on his leg from Flair and AJ targeting it a few days back. So, he wasn't in a good position to fight back. Jeff made sense, since he was the 100% guy to clean house while everyone else was suffering from something that prohibited them from going full tilt. Except I don't think Sting would have worked the same if it was different. The attack on RVD worked. Plus, if Hardy came out first, how would you lead to a No DQ match if the heels don't have the opportunity to attack and lead to that match like they did after Sting came in. I know some of the things you're getting at, and they do have points, but I just don't see it as wrong. Still, that's just my view, so I'm not sure if it's worth much. I just know it kept my attention and made sense to me. I agree with what your saying. The only thing I am getting at is the use of the formula, or the rules involved with doing a wrestling show. If you violated the formula, you are universally considered to be doing something wrong. Let me see if I can answer some of those things, based on the 'rules' of the formula: 1. Flair/Styles would have needed to deliberately get themselves DQed using the chairs or whatever, and then beaten down Hogan and Abyss. Then you do the save spot with either Sting or Hardy, but preferably Hardy since the first quarter usually pulls strong ratings, and thus leaves people to wonder what is coming next. As far as Hogan not mentioning Sting, I see where you are coming from, yet what would you do if someone you haven't seen for years appeared in dramatic fashion and then attacked you? Two sentences would have tied it together from Hogan, " AJ, Flair, you wanna use chairs, you wanna bust us open, then fine, this ain't over. Later on we will restart the match, and this time it will be no DQ! And Sting, you better get the hell out of the building brother, because if you give me one chance to kick your ass tonight, I'm gonna take it!" See how that links it together? Even if they do what they did it still makes sense now. I mean, it made sense if you filled in the blanks, but realistically it needs some kind of comment. Let's just call it WWE framing. 2. RVD/Sting. You made my point about this. RVD, a supposed megastar (which he is) jumps over the barricade to attack Sting from behind, which is confusing enough because RVD had no reason to it like that unless it was to establish how bad ass Sting is that even RVD is afraid to go face to face. He got the quick, fluke victory, which is a spot you would give to a lower card guy. RVD's frog splash, 123, subsequent working the crowd, and maybe even jumping on the mic gives Sting time to sell. The point is that you must use a new, over worker in a showcase spot. He just showed up and didn't make the splash he could have. Then you have the attack. It should of been an assault to a specific region or simply a few whacks to knock him out. Then he puts the death lock on, keeps going back to reapply it. Using the bat beatdown over and over sort of kills the validity of the weapon. Imagine hitting a guy 30 times with a chair if there was no special reason for the guy to be motivated to get back up? Like Foley v.s. Rock in 99, you had the Rock facing a relentless Mankind that wouldn't quit. It was telling a story, plus the character was built up to take more pain, which made it logical. RVD getting up from all those shots made it borderline into science fiction. Worse yet, I bet he is barely selling it next week (he shouldn't be on, he should be injured after all that). 3. The finish. Everytime a face comes out from behind that curtain to make a save, he is Superman until the designated cut off spot. I mean, he still sells injuries, but he gets over on the heels. In order to make the whole thing work better, the spot should of been: Abyss pins AJ AJ/Flair attack Hogan Pope limps out, gets a few spots in, followed by Desmond Then Hardy They did Aftermatch beatdown with Wolf immediately running in, then Pope, then Hardy. The main problem with the way it went down wasn't so much the order, both ways work, but the heels have to have some sort of decisive advantage, beating down the faces (after Pope gets some offense in) in some sort of decisive manner before it makes sense to send the real save face out there. 4. Getting Sting over as a heel would need those spots, but I think they would of been better spread out. Let is simmer in people's minds, then let the second part go down. See, one spot ends the show, one spot could basically begin the show. The more I go over it, I can see that 2 things probably happened: 1. Hogan forgot his line in the first segment complete with working in a weak spot for Sting to run in. 2. The finish before the copyright was probably intended to be done like the second manner I was talking about, but they ran out of time and had to do it very fast which detracts from the story it was trying to tell. Sort of like having to crap real bad right before you break up with your girlfriend, so it forces you to quickly blurt out the 'it's not you it's me' speech'.
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Post by Michael Coello on Mar 10, 2010 23:51:25 GMT -5
I just don't get the formula talk. Just cause it wasn't done a specific way, it's a failure, no matter the build or the repercussions that occur. Just cause it doesn't follow a formula that "needs" to be followed. It just seems like splitting hairs cause it wasn't done one specific way, no matter if it's the same outcome.
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Post by jobsquad on Mar 11, 2010 0:08:34 GMT -5
I just don't get the formula talk. Just cause it wasn't done a specific way, it's a failure, no matter the build or the repercussions that occur. Just cause it doesn't follow a formula that "needs" to be followed. It just seems like splitting hairs cause it wasn't done one specific way, no matter if it's the same outcome. I was always like that, too. It is done with getting everyone as over as possible in mind while telling the best possible story in a way that always leaves the fan wanting more. I don't think the show was bad by any means. I just think a few little things would make it that much better, and the little things add up. I remember watching WCW 2000, and I thought it was so awesome. Meanwhile, I felt about the WWE then sort of like I do now, a meh feeling. But, adhering to that formula to the letter is what the WWE always does. It is only really predictable when they make it predictable. I think the 'going the other way' and 'surprise' logic with Russo and Bischoff sometimes happens without regard for what they are doing next week. Personally, I feel the show was great, and that it is what they need in order to be competitive. On the other hand, a somewhat boring WWE killed WCW when the former tried to go against the grain. The nWo always deviated from the formula, or at least they did for around 2 years or so. It worked, so who knows?
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 11, 2010 1:06:46 GMT -5
I'll just simplify what I said before:
Sting is now mega over as a heel. RVD is still going to get big pops, and could easily recover and save face, which is what the entire angle set up.
Again...who was hurt here? If the babyface they fed to Sting was somebody who couldn't afford to look weak (say, like Pope), it's a different story, since you're still establishing Pope to the audience at large. RVD IS established. This isn't early 90's WWF/WCW where a guy debuts for the other company and arrives with a different name and identity, he's the exact same RVD from ECW and WWF.
And, again, he'll get his revenge, regardless. Whether he wins the entire feud or not, who knows, but he'll get heat back.
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Post by jobsquad on Mar 11, 2010 2:36:02 GMT -5
I'll just simplify what I said before: Sting is now mega over as a heel. RVD is still going to get big pops, and could easily recover and save face, which is what the entire angle set up. Again...who was hurt here? If the babyface they fed to Sting was somebody who couldn't afford to look weak (say, like Pope), it's a different story, since you're still establishing Pope to the audience at large. RVD IS established. This isn't early 90's WWF/WCW where a guy debuts for the other company and arrives with a different name and identity, he's the exact same RVD from ECW and WWF. And, again, he'll get his revenge, regardless. Whether he wins the entire feud or not, who knows, but he'll get heat back. Right, nothing is unsalvageable or broken beyond repair by any means, and their current booking style is not 'bad', it just does several things against the norm in wrestling, which is where people like Storm and Jericho are coming from. I am just trying to bridge the gaps and talk about meaningful changes they could have made or should have made to get things over easier. I hated the whole wrestling formula, and I tried to work against it until one day the trainer said, "People in the crowd are begging for certain things to go down, just take them on the ride they want to go on". It isn't about 1 company being better than the other or whatever. I am sure everyone who ever laced up boots, past or present, is pulling very hard for TNA to succeed. So yeah, I am pulling for them hard. On the other hand, workers face palm when things don't happen the way they should, or the way they are trained to make things happen. It is as clear of a violation as bumping wrong, and it is simply amazing that it ends up on TV opposite Raw, especially when WWE never makes mistakes with their spot design. So, I figure I might as well use some of my time here to actually contribute something in a positive manner. Hey, I gotta do something between reviewing grills and discussing time travel, right? And I apologize to anyone if I ever come off as all knowing or something like that. I really do not mean to, I just figure if guys are interested enough to go on a message board and talk about something they saw on TV, maybe they would like to know the why of it.
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Post by snugglecakes on Mar 11, 2010 3:59:51 GMT -5
Sting is now mega over as a heel. RVD is still going to get big pops, and could easily recover and save face, which is what the entire angle set up. Let's just wait a few weeks before we state that Sting is over as a mega-heel... it wouldn't surprise me if he's cheered over RVD by some fans, or switched back to a babyface within a month.
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Post by valiens on Mar 11, 2010 20:13:18 GMT -5
Cause buuilding heel heat on a guy by using the popularity of the new guy is clueless? Plus Sting had a bat. You don't get up from the bat that takes down the whole nWo. You miss the point. The beat down made RVD look more like a jobber, and the pin on sting look like a fluke. But isn't that only true if the fans see it that way? It seems to me like they don't, so while technically it may be faulty storytelling, if no one cares then no one cares. If a tree falls in a forest....
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Mar 11, 2010 21:28:09 GMT -5
You'd think the crowd would realise that RVD was being 'buried' and not had constantly chanted 'RVD! RVD! RVD!' throughout the entire time he was being pounded by the bat and how they cheered him getting back up to possibly kick Sting in the head.
Curse them for not noticing these things!
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MrBRulzOK
Wade Wilson
Mr No-Pants Heathen
Something Witty Here.
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Post by MrBRulzOK on Mar 11, 2010 22:07:55 GMT -5
The formula is there for a reason though; because it works. If it didn't, then professional wrestling would never have taken off like it had in the first place. There certainly wouldn't be a WWE or even WCW most likely. Now granted, that doesn't mean you always have to adhere strictly to the formula. However, it usually works out for the best when you do. Not only that, but the key to a good wrestling show is pretty much the formula to any sort of medium. Why change what works?
Name one good piece of literature or film that involves the main character getting beaten senselessly for five minutes and doing absolutely nothing but getting up and taking more abuse. Honestly, who in their right mind would do that? What do they have to gain by taking this abuse? If this were real, the recipient would most likely end up either dead or with severe injuries. Personally if somebody was attacking me with a baseball bat I'd run away. Sure, maybe I wouldn't be able to escape, but it's better than just constantly getting up like a total buffoon and asking for more. There's a fine line between courageousness and stupidity.
And it's not like this accomplishes anything or than displaying the fact that Van Dam is an imbecile who seems immune to pain. That does nobody any good. I mean if this guy can take a million shots and Hogan only needs two before he goes down, what kind of message does that send? Furthermore, why isn't Van Dam the champion of the world if he can endure constant abuse like that with little effect? I imagine most people on the roster would crumple to their knees after the first minute or two of constant swinging.
And no it's not the same thing as in a wrestling match, where a heel gets the heat. At least in most matches, the babyface is able to fire back every now and then in between offense. They don't just lay there forever taking constant abuse and continuing to get up to receive more.
As for the whole TNA Screwjob thing, really what did that accomplish? What exactly did that build towards? Is Kurt Angle going to feud with Hulk Hogan at some point? Apparently not. Is it going to lead to Bret Hart coming in and getting revenge by ringing the bell in similar fashion in a rematch? Probably not. Where is it leading to? It's one thing to attract eyeballs, after all anybody can do that. I could do that by lighting my house on fire. The problem is when what you do and it doesn't lead to anything. It just comes off as desperation. I mean really, what did setting my abode ablaze accomplish? Sure it got a few people's attention, but it didn't make them care. That's why TNA isn't selling as few PPVs as they are. Because they just can't get enough people to care. And it's not like they don't have the tools to accomplish this. They've got all the talent in the world and with the right booking they could probably be alot better off then they are at the moment. Possibly with ratings in the 2's. Yet they haven't really gone anywhere in the past few years have they?
And concerning the Samoa Joe/Kurt Angle feud, actually no. Kurt Angle and Samoa Joe never even touched one another until the actual match. Of course, I mean the one in 2008. Not the earlier one with the stupid Karen Angle swerve.
I'm not trying to come to blows with anyone here, mind you. I'm just trying to give my take on things.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2010 22:13:11 GMT -5
I thought a bigger glaring moment occurred when Sting came out and Tenay said that the fans were reacting to his actions in a fashion that they never did before. The crowd was barely cheering or booing and, a moment after Tenay said it, the camera showed fans at ringside bowing down to Sting... just made Tenay look like such an idiot.
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