Frosty
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 3,800
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Post by Frosty on Jan 4, 2012 13:13:24 GMT -5
www.naplesnews.com/news/2012/jan/03/collier-judge-upholds-stand-your-ground-defense-ca/?partner=popular"The teenager who stabbed another student to death at a Collier County bus stop will not face any charges because of the Stand Your Ground law." What are your thoughts on this? Edit: Wanted to add some more information for people who didn't read the link. To provide some more detailed information about the situation (based on the article), Students said Dylan (the kid killed) had several other altercations with Jorge, including one incident where he "lobbed" something at Jorge from the back of the bus. The altercation from Dylan escalated so much, that Jorge also skipped school and bus rides to avoid Dylan. It was also noted that Dylan and two of his friends antagonized Jorge with several "taunting comments." It was also noted that on the day of the fight, several students had announced the fight on the bus. After hearing this, Jorge got off several stops earlier than where the fight was going to take place as an attempt to prevent the fight. He was followed by Dylan and several students and eventually hit behind the head. He then attempted to leave the situation, but was stopped. According to this sentence, "(He) was under attack from the first punch to the back of his head," he was attacked by more than a single punch, and retaliated by stabbing "Dylan Nuno 12 times in the chest and abdomen. Two of the blows caused fatal wounds, including one that nicked his heart." "The judge said (Jorge) had 'no duty to retreat' and was 'legally entitled to meet force with force, even deadly force.'" "The defendant was in a place where he had a right to be and was not acting unlawfully. He had more than enough reason to believe he was in danger of death or great bodily harm." The article also said that Jorge had shown the knife to students earlier the afternoon of the incident. It seems sorta thrown in there as an, "oh by the way," so I'm not really sure what to make of it. Again, this is just a very sad situation to read about. I'm sure that the lives of Dylan's friends and family have been turned upside down, and the same for Jorge's. I don't think most people could walk away from killing someone with ease.
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ashcampbell
Bubba Ho-Tep
Eagle Claw attacks again!!!
Posts: 584
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Post by ashcampbell on Jan 4, 2012 13:20:02 GMT -5
I think this was the right decision, in my opinion. Bullying needs to be stopped, and if situations like this help put a stop to it, then all the better. Maybe that kid shouldn't have hit the other kid in the back of the head...that's just a sign that he was walking away and trying to avoid the fight.
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The Line
Patti Mayonnaise
Real Name: Bumkiss. Stanley Bumkiss.
Peanut Butter & JAAAAAMMMM!
Posts: 36,698
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Post by The Line on Jan 4, 2012 13:24:45 GMT -5
While I think bullying is a terrible scourge of society, the world would be a much worse place if every victim had the legal right to kill their abuser. I'm not saying put a needle in this kid's arm, but at least probation/suspended sentence or something else light.
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Frosty
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 3,800
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Post by Frosty on Jan 4, 2012 13:32:48 GMT -5
While I think bullying is a terrible scourge of society, the world would be a much worse place if every victim had the legal right to kill their abuser. I'm not saying put a needle in this kid's arm, but at least probation/suspended sentence or something else light. I agree about the world being a terrible place if that happened. While I don't think that he should be punished just to make an example that taking a life is wrong (because the judge obviously found his actions within the law in this situation), I think he probably should get some counseling for this. It's a terrible situation no matter how you look at it. There are so many times this situation could have been prevented, but none of the adults took action. Hopefully this can serve as a wake-up call to parents and teachers to be more mindful of bullying, and help them educate children. I feel bad for everyone involved in this situation.
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Rican
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
July 17, 2011 - HHHe called it
Posts: 16,461
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Post by Rican on Jan 4, 2012 13:33:01 GMT -5
This is total f***ing bullshit. The kid gets off completely free for f***ing murder?! I understand self-defense but there needs to be some sort of accountability or consequences.
Also, he stabbed the other guy 12 times. That's beyond self-defense. Give me a f***ing break.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Jan 4, 2012 13:36:27 GMT -5
I think this was the right decision, in my opinion. Bullying needs to be stopped, and if situations like this help put a stop to it, then all the better. Maybe that kid shouldn't have hit the other kid in the back of the head...that's just a sign that he was walking away and trying to avoid the fight. There is absolutely no way to stop bullying. It will always exist unfortunately. You can enforce the harshest punishment towards students and it won't do a thing. However, I'm kind of shocked that you're okay with the loss of life as long as it helps the overall situation. You have to remember, he was still a child as well.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Jan 4, 2012 13:51:27 GMT -5
While I think bullying is a terrible scourge of society, the world would be a much worse place if every victim had the legal right to kill their abuser. I'm not saying put a needle in this kid's arm, but at least probation/suspended sentence or something else light. Pretty much this, but I don't agree with giving him something light. He killed. I don't care what the circumstances that led to it were, at the end of the day he killed someone. Is it sad that he was bullied? Yes, but that does NOT give him a free pass to off his bullies. So he has to have at least a sentence of a few decades. A light sentence would be a slap on the wrist in my opinion.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jan 4, 2012 13:56:18 GMT -5
This quote from the article sums up my thoughts.
"My reaction is there is no winner at all in this case.”
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Dave at the Movies
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
VINTAGE D-DAY DAVE! Always cranking dat thing.
Posts: 18,224
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Post by Dave at the Movies on Jan 4, 2012 13:58:57 GMT -5
I don't agree with that at all. He killed someone. If you bully someone you can at least apologize for it later. IF you kill someone that's it. The only way you can make up for it is by providing restitution for the family and even that is debatable on whether it would make up for it or not.
He should at least go to jail until he is 21 and then they should have a parole hearing.
If the other kid had a gun or a knife then I would say it was self defense by protecting his own life. This was self defense but it went way too far and he took someone's life. I don't like bullying but come on!
These bullying campaigns need to stop. There are shady people making tons of money by exploiting the bullying situation and it is abhorrent. Don't donate money to one of these exploitation organizations.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Jan 4, 2012 14:06:21 GMT -5
The law gives a person the right to “meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself.” The law also state that there is no duty to retreat.
This article isn't very clear on the force used by the bully compared to the force used by the defendant, but several guys against one, a few attempts to get away, a punch to the back of the head. I think the force used seems reasonable based on my limited facts.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by The Ichi on Jan 4, 2012 14:08:26 GMT -5
I'm not going to say that the kid shouldn't be punished for murder, but maybe at least this will be used in the future to scare bullies into thinking twice.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Jan 4, 2012 14:09:58 GMT -5
The law gives a person the right to “meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself.” The law also state that there is no duty to retreat. This article isn't very clear on the force used by the bully compared to the force used by the defendant, but several guys against one, a few attempts to get away, a punch to the back of the head. I think the force used seems reasonable based on my limited facts. A knife(I'm just assuming he used a knife) > fists and feet.
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Post by kayfabulous on Jan 4, 2012 14:11:37 GMT -5
Stabbing someone 12 times seems a bit beyond defense. That was an act of rage and anger.
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Rican
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
July 17, 2011 - HHHe called it
Posts: 16,461
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Post by Rican on Jan 4, 2012 14:11:50 GMT -5
The law gives a person the right to “meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself.” The law also state that there is no duty to retreat. This article isn't very clear on the force used by the bully compared to the force used by the defendant, but several guys against one, a few attempts to get away, a punch to the back of the head. I think the force used seems reasonable based on my limited facts. A knife(I'm just assuming he used a knife) > fists and feet. And he stabbed him 12 times!
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Jan 4, 2012 14:11:54 GMT -5
The law gives a person the right to “meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself.” The law also state that there is no duty to retreat. This article isn't very clear on the force used by the bully compared to the force used by the defendant, but several guys against one, a few attempts to get away, a punch to the back of the head. I think the force used seems reasonable based on my limited facts. A knife(I'm just assuming he used a knife) > fists and feet. Several guys with fists and feet can f*** you up just as easily. It wasn't like this guys were just standing around laughing at him, and this kid whips out a scimitar. One article mentions that they threatened his life, but it wasn't clear exactly if the article meant they literally threatened him or that he felt threatened. If the bully surrendered or something and the kid was just on top of him stabbing him that is probably excessive. More facts are needed, IMHO.
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Post by breakdownthewalls on Jan 4, 2012 14:11:57 GMT -5
I think there needs to be more background - it sounds like the kid was trying to get out of a fight, which is good. But for him to get cleared for murder; unless the other kid was coming at him with a knife himself, it seems a little fishy.
"Don't bully - or I'll kill you" is not really a good message to be sending.
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Rican
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
July 17, 2011 - HHHe called it
Posts: 16,461
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Post by Rican on Jan 4, 2012 14:14:47 GMT -5
Stabbing someone 12 times seems a bit beyond defense. That was an act of rage and anger. Agreed completely.
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Post by moneyman20 on Jan 4, 2012 14:14:51 GMT -5
I know this will probably get me a boat load of heat but, the bully got what he deserved. If you've never been in a bullying situation, you would not understand. I have and I can tell you that when you have that many people against you, there's no telling what you'll do to get them to leave you alone.
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Frosty
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 3,800
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Post by Frosty on Jan 4, 2012 14:14:54 GMT -5
The law gives a person the right to “meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself.” The law also state that there is no duty to retreat. This article isn't very clear on the force used by the bully compared to the force used by the defendant, but several guys against one, a few attempts to get away, a punch to the back of the head. I think the force used seems reasonable based on my limited facts. I think that's one of the important things to keep in mind when reading about something like this. The judge ruled the boy was acting within the law. It's easy to judge a person's actions when you're displaced from the anxiety and emotions that person was under when the incident happened. When I took a criminal psychology class, my professor talked about the social reactions to controversial decisions in the legal system and how, most of the time, social opinion prefers that a "sense of justice" is served, rather than actual justice taking place.
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Post by Red Impact on Jan 4, 2012 14:15:51 GMT -5
In the heat of the moment, it really doesn't matter whether it's one time or twelve, just like it wouldn't matter if you fired one shot or twelve at a burglar attacking you. What matters is the amount of time between the attacks, if they all happen at once, it's all adrenaline driven anyways. If you have time to cool off and continue (as was the case with a very highly publicized case here), then it ceases being such. That's what changes it from self defense to revenge, not the quarter second between stab 4 and stab 5.
But you have to have the right to defend yourself, and in that situation, you can't take time to try to weight exactly how much force you need to use to subdue them.
That said, there's one fact of the case that really stands out to me, and that's that the kid brought a knife. While he may have been a target of the bully, and tried to avoid the fight, it does show that he was thinking of using it. For that, it shows me that he should have gotten some punishment. You don't take a weapon onto school property, even to deal with a bully.
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