Bullying victim cleared after bus-stop stabbing

[Piccolo]

Jan 4, 2012 21:39:58 GMT -5 mizerable said:

He would physically push me, spit at me, threaten me, put me down etc etc. He was about the same size as me and I figured I could take him, so I finally manned up and challenged him to a fight.

...

There's never an excuse to kill someone unless you're presented the same.

Big difference here. You challenged him. He didn't bring his friends and start beating you after you tried to be the bigger man and walk away.

Plus, just because all he did was bust your lip, that doesn't mean Jorge would've escaped as lightly. Every relationship between two people is distinct.

Finally, once someone starts beating you, you have no way of knowing when he'll stop. It's not safe, sane, and consensual. It's an attack. And it could well be lethal, if it is not stopped.

[kidglov3s]

There's a huge difference between "challenging someone to a fight" and assaulting someone. Assault is a crime for a good reason. People have died from being punched in the head once. When Dylan attacked Jorge he forced Jorge to defend himself, and he did. Successfully.

[Red Impact]

Jan 4, 2012 21:39:58 GMT -5 mizerable said:

I don't see how anyone can advocate this. It's a small step up from shooting up the school. There's always alternatives to these sort of things.

You know what I would do when I was bullied? I would kick his ass or egg his house or something, depending on how intimidating it was. Something to send a message but not long lasting.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with challenging someone to a fight, even if you lose. I challenged a guy to a fight when I was 17 because he would not leave me alone. I got bullied in middle school relentlessly, to the point I almost changed schools. However by high school, people didn't do it nearly as much and by junior year it was almost non-existent...except for one kid. He antagonized me relentlessly, everywhere I would go and everything I would do, he would start s*** with me. He would physically push me, spit at me, threaten me, put me down etc etc. He was about the same size as me and I figured I could take him, so I finally manned up and challenged him to a fight.

Well, it didn't go as good as I thought it would. I lost. I had braces at the time, and my lower lip was absolutely smashed into my bottom teeth, to the point I couldn't close my mouth. Both of us ended up getting suspended, and as a follow up, the school made damn sure to keep us away from one another. I didn't have any problems from that day forward. However, it was a blessing in disguise since the idiot got suspended again close to 2 months later and since it was his third suspension in 1 semester, he wasn't able to come back...so he didn't even get to graduate with his friends.

Am I upset I lost the fight? I used to be. But in the long run, I realize I stood up for myself and did what I had to do to put an end to things, and it actually worked. The only thing that was hurt was my ego, but in the long run...his ego was hurt worse. There's never an excuse to kill someone unless you're presented the same.

I'm sorry, but no, it's not in any way a small step from shooting up a school. He didn't seek the bully out, he didn't do it as revenge. To compare it is just a terrible exaggeration.

He did try alternatives. He tried to avoid fighting twice, first by getting off at another stop and then by running away even after he was hit. The bully had other students with him, they were going to beat him up, and like it or not, Batman doesn't exist, no one is going to be able to analyze on the fly how to take him down without being fatal. At that point, the one thing on his mind was most likely "I have to defend myself" and against a kid two-years older (and given high school is the major physical development time for boys, he was probably two-years bigger as well) with other students on his side, that meant finding a way to equalize it.

I don't think anyone is advocating killing every bully, and I personally think it's tragic that it ended the way it did, but I have a big problem with advocating that the victim has to suck it up and get beat because the only way they have to avoid harm could lead to death. I don't think what he did was murder in any way. We don't know how far he would go, and I don't think we should have to put ourselves at the mercy of others to find out.

Also, your experiences =/= everyone's experiences. You're talking about a kid in high school when you were a junior, and while I can't say anything about your situation, the fact that you thought you could take him at least makes it seem like you were equal in build and/or size. If you were a junior, there's probably a good chance there was less of a developmental gap between you and the person you fought unless the person was on the five year plan. You then challenged him to a fight. By the way, good for you. I say that seriously, you stood up for yourself and that's to be commended. But Jorge had the fight thrust upon him. It ended up working out well for you in the long run, the problem is that it doesn't end up that way for everyone. None of us can say exactly what it was to be that kid walking down the street at that time when his long-term tormentor was stalking him and talking about fighting. Your scenario isn't the same.

[mizerable]

It's not so much of a difference, in fact I initially tried to back out as well, but he continued his abuse. He brought his friends as well to the fight. Yes, I could have very well been jumped as well, but that didn't happen luckily. Also, I did end up with more than just a busted lip, and it wasn't so much busted as it was jammed in my braces, looking like hamburger meat, and it took a while to remove with tweezers and surgical scissors. I highly doubt in this kid's case that they were intent on killing him, as most bullies enjoy tormenting their victims, so I'm sure they might say they will, but are just trying to strike fear. I'm condoning what the bully did, but I was around enough of that crap to know what their agenda was. Overall, I think the bulled kid still acted irrationally through anger, less than fear. I had the same thoughts of killing my antagonist, but I didn't think that out of fear as much as it was hate. Yeah, we don't know for sure, but I just think the kid had enough and decided to lash out.

Jan 4, 2012 21:45:54 GMT -5 The OP said:

So you're saying, don't kill someone unless they kill you first?

If your life is in physical danger...as in someone is literally attacking you with the intent on killing you, then yes..you should be able to respond in the same manner.

[The OP]

That's exactly what happened.

EDIT: Maybe the thread title should be changed from "bullying victim" to "assault victim" to avoid confusion.

[kidglov3s]

Jan 4, 2012 22:19:20 GMT -5 mizerable said:

If your life is in physical danger...as in someone is literally attacking you with the intent on killing you, then yes..you should be able to respond in the same manner.

If someone is doing something that could kill you, such as punching you in the back of the head, you're at risk of dying whether they mean to kill you or not. It's absurd to suggest that deadly force is not reasonable when defending yourself in such a situation.

[mizerable]

Dude...that's an enormous leap. Was he assaulted? Yes. Was his life at risk? Not really.

And to be honest...I want to give the kid the benefit of the doubt. But I have an extremely difficult time believing that this bully targeted this kid to the point of challenging him to a fight and the kid did nothing. Most fights usually have some grounding, believe it or not. This isn't some 80's movie where the bully beats someone up just because he doesn't like him, the situation escalated, which I'm sure the kid at least fired back at the bully some. And I'm not saying it's wrong that he did, but to say that the bully just up and said "hey, I might as well beat him up just for fun", that doesn't really happen.

[The OP]

Ok, opinions are one thing but if you don't think you can get killed from being hit in the head with a fist you are simply incorrect. This isn't pro wrestling and the guy wasn't throwing worked punches. Ever heard of a one punch homicide? This kid's life was in danger and he acted in self-defense, that's why he wasn't charged with murder. And I don't even know what you're getting at with that whole "the bullied kid must have done something" thing. How would you know anything about it, and what does it have to do with anything?

[mizerable]

I'm not saying you can't! But to say that's enough of a reason to stab someone to death is ridiculous. You can say the same about a lot of regular attacks people pose on one another. A lot of things can be dangerous with enough force.

[Red Impact]

Jan 4, 2012 22:19:20 GMT -5 mizerable said:

It's not so much of a difference, in fact I initially tried to back out as well, but he continued his abuse. He brought his friends as well to the fight. Yes, I could have very well been jumped as well, but that didn't happen luckily. Also, I did end up with more than just a busted lip, and it wasn't so much busted as it was jammed in my braces, looking like hamburger meat, and it took a while to remove with tweezers and surgical scissors. I highly doubt in this kid's case that they were intent on killing him, as most bullies enjoy tormenting their victims, so I'm sure they might say they will, but are just trying to strike fear. I'm condoning what the bully did, but I was around enough of that crap to know what their agenda was. Overall, I think the bulled kid still acted irrationally through anger, less than fear. I had the same thoughts of killing my antagonist, but I didn't think that out of fear as much as it was hate. Yeah, we don't know for sure, but I just think the kid had enough and decided to lash out.

Jan 4, 2012 21:45:54 GMT -5 The OP said:

So you're saying, don't kill someone unless they kill you first?

If your life is in physical danger...as in someone is literally attacking you with the intent on killing you, then yes..you should be able to respond in the same manner.

They might or might not have intended to do any permanent harm, but fact is, we can't read minds and we can't see into the future. We have no way of knowing how far he'd go, and Jorge was likely the same way. You didn't know how far your bully would go, and it sounds like he at least gave you a fair fight, but if he wasn't intent on it? We don't know if the bully just wanted to slap him and give him bruises, or if he was wanting to curb stomp him. We don't know if the bully wanted to go light and would accidentally go too far. These things all happen, not every situation is identical.

That's why Stand Your Ground laws exist, because you have to allow people the right to defend themselves in uncertain, dangerous situations. We don't have time to analyze these things in the heat of the moment, that's not practical or realistic. When someone is assaulting you, you have seconds at the most to react, and humans just aren't going to be able to judge intent in that time. Otherwise, you're giving carte blanch to people who would abuse that.

Was what he did rational? Probably not. We rarely react to highly stressful situations the same way we do when we're calm. That's what hormones do, adrenaline and testosterone can cause us to act in ways we often kick ourselves for afterwards. So in those regards, I'd agree with you, he probably wasn't thinking the most rationally he could. It'd be a lot worse if he was, actually, because it'd mean that he intended to stab him 12 times instead of being caught up in the moment.

Maybe, in the future, he might have been able to challenge the bully on his own terms, although being 2 years behind, the bully would have likely graduated before then, but that's not what happened. You have to judge based on the specific situation, not a somewhat-but-not-really-similar situation involving completely different people in a different situation. What you did is what you did, you don't know if you'd have reacted the same way if you were in Jorge's exact situation. I don't know how I'd react either, we can pretend we know, but we really don't.

[mizerable]

Look, I'm agreeing with you for the most part. He could've been in serious danger. I'm only doubting the severity of the some of the facts, and I refuse to over sympathize for him, even though he was a victim. I don't want to act like I know everything there is to know about situations like this, but I've been in a lot of them in my life unfortunately, both being bullied and being the bullier. I'm going to leave it at that. The only thing I can hope for is this kid uses this to move his life forward in a positive direction and to do what he can to make amends with the family.

[King Ghidorah]

Everything that's wrong with everything.

[EvenBaldobombHasAJob]

seems like pretty ironclad self-defense to me. would it be better if he just let the other guy kill him? what kind of world would it be if a guy can't defend himself against physical harm? the fact that the other kid bullied him was moot. when you start chasing someone around and physically assault them, you're taking your life into your own hands.

[Dub H]

Jan 4, 2012 22:56:19 GMT -5 King Ghidorah said:

Everything that's wrong with everything.

Dang,that dislike bar

[Cela]

Jan 4, 2012 23:04:51 GMT -5 Dub H said:

Jan 4, 2012 22:56:19 GMT -5 King Ghidorah said:

Everything that's wrong with everything.

Dang,that dislike bar

Newsflash: The Internet Hates Traditional Bullies.

[Dub H]

Jan 4, 2012 23:10:03 GMT -5 Cela said:

Jan 4, 2012 23:04:51 GMT -5 Dub H said:

Dang,that dislike bar

Newsflash: The Internet Hates Traditional Bullies.

I know that(i'm one fo the biggest bullies hater here i think),but only one like,where all that so supposed friend from the video are?

Hey,less likes the best for me!

[Cela]

Jan 4, 2012 23:15:39 GMT -5 Dub H said:

Jan 4, 2012 23:10:03 GMT -5 Cela said:

Newsflash: The Internet Hates Traditional Bullies.

I know that,but only one like,where all that so supposed friend from the video where?

If the video is any evidence, probably running around saying "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHH!"

[moneyman20]

Jan 4, 2012 22:56:19 GMT -5 King Ghidorah said:

Everything that's wrong with everything.

Probably was a popular kid, which is why he got away with the s*** he did.

[Dub H]

Jan 4, 2012 23:20:58 GMT -5 @moneyman20 said:

Jan 4, 2012 22:56:19 GMT -5 King Ghidorah said:

Everything that's wrong with everything.

Probably was a popular kid, which is why he got away with the s*** he did.

And thats why school is usually a shity place and i would rather have studied at home.Child and teens invovled witht he cool kids are usualyl pathetic,it makes me sad for humanity.

[lucas_lee]

I'm sorry I had to hold in my laughter at that video, bunch of idiots crying over a bully