Rican
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
July 17, 2011 - HHHe called it
Posts: 16,461
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Post by Rican on Jan 4, 2012 14:18:27 GMT -5
I know this will probably get me a boat load of heat but, the bully got what he deserved. If you've never been in a bullying situation, you would not understand. I have and I can tell you that when you have that many people against you, there's no telling what you'll do to get them to leave you alone. I was bullied in elementary, middle school, and part of high school. I'm willing to bet most people growing up were bullied in one way or another at some point in their life. It is not an excuse.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Jan 4, 2012 14:20:50 GMT -5
There is a difference between casual bullying and jumping a guy at a bus stop though.
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Post by Drillbit Taylor on Jan 4, 2012 14:23:03 GMT -5
And what happens when someone finds this dick "threatening" and does the same thing. I mean the guy carries a Knife arround. One wrong thing said and a brandished Knife can be taken as a threat too.
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Post by Red Impact on Jan 4, 2012 14:25:32 GMT -5
And what happens when someone finds this dick "threatening" and does the same thing. I mean the guy carries a Knife arround. One wrong thing said and a brandished Knife can be taken as a threat too. The story doesn't seem to say that he carried it around all the time, just on the day that the person was supposed to fight him, and he tried to escape the fight twice.
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Post by breakdownthewalls on Jan 4, 2012 14:26:27 GMT -5
I know this will probably get me a boat load of heat but, the bully got what he deserved. If you've never been in a bullying situation, you would not understand. I have and I can tell you that when you have that many people against you, there's no telling what you'll do to get them to leave you alone. I was bullied in elementary, middle school, and part of high school. I'm willing to bet most people growing up were bullied in one way or another at some point in their life. It is not an excuse. Agreed - everyone is bullied at some point. Either at school, at home, at work - it happens to everyone. So next time somebody a clique of girls at work exclude me from something I can kill them? Just because I'd do anything to have them leave me along.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Jan 4, 2012 14:27:08 GMT -5
And what happens when someone finds this dick "threatening" and does the same thing. I mean the guy carries a Knife arround. One wrong thing said and a brandished Knife can be taken as a threat too. Courts assess the reasonableness of a belief of imminent bodily harm all the time. In fact, the only thing i think significantly different here than with other state laws is that there is no duty to retreat (which he DID try to do)
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sryans
Don Corleone
BROOKLYN, BROOKLYN
Posts: 2,001
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Post by sryans on Jan 4, 2012 14:29:25 GMT -5
I know this will probably get me a boat load of heat but, the bully got what he deserved. If you've never been in a bullying situation, you would not understand. I have and I can tell you that when you have that many people against you, there's no telling what you'll do to get them to leave you alone. A 17 year old kid deserved to get stabbed to death? I know bullying is awful and stuff, but that seems a bit much.
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Post by Red Impact on Jan 4, 2012 14:29:46 GMT -5
I was bullied in elementary, middle school, and part of high school. I'm willing to bet most people growing up were bullied in one way or another at some point in their life. It is not an excuse. Agreed - everyone is bullied at some point. Either at school, at home, at work - it happens to everyone. So next time somebody a clique of girls at work exclude me from something I can kill them? Just because I'd do anything to have them leave me along. You're bastardizing the point of the law. It's not that "well, you're being mistreated so it's legal to kill." It's "if you have a legitimate feeling that you're in danger of serious bodily harm or death at the hands of another, you can defend yourself." All it says is that you have a right to defend yourself, I don't know why that's such a controversial statement. Yeah, a kid lost his life and that is terrible. But we're not in a society where it's ok to physically assault someone and the victim has to take it.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Jan 4, 2012 14:30:02 GMT -5
I was bullied in elementary, middle school, and part of high school. I'm willing to bet most people growing up were bullied in one way or another at some point in their life. It is not an excuse. Agreed - everyone is bullied at some point. Either at school, at home, at work - it happens to everyone. So next time somebody a clique of girls at work exclude me from something I can kill them? Just because I'd do anything to have them leave me along. Now this is just silly. This isn't kid gets laughed at, kid snaps. This is kid gets threatened, possibly with his life, and punched in the back of the head at a bus stop.
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Post by Cyno on Jan 4, 2012 14:30:26 GMT -5
The law gives a person the right to “meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself.” The law also state that there is no duty to retreat. This article isn't very clear on the force used by the bully compared to the force used by the defendant, but several guys against one, a few attempts to get away, a punch to the back of the head. I think the force used seems reasonable based on my limited facts. A knife(I'm just assuming he used a knife) > fists and feet. That really depends. If it's a bunch of people or a particularly strong person who knows where to hit, you can easily kill someone by beating the holy hell out of them. According to the article, the first blow was struck by the bully in the back of the head. Hitting the back of the head in the right place in the right amount of force can actually be fatal, if not cause some serious head trauma. People really underestimate how fragile the human body ultimately is. I need some more facts on the matter. But the one thing that really stands out to me is that the prosecutors had no interest in appealing the decision to a higher court. I know prosecutors' tenacity and these days they care more about convictions than making sure justice is dealt to the right people. If they had anything that they could use to get someone convicted, much less indicted and tried, they'd go all in. The self-defense case had to be ironclad if they aren't pursuing it any further. I think the killer needs psychological/psychiatric treatment in any case. Like was said before, he may have won his freedom, but no one's a real winner in this case.
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Dave at the Movies
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
VINTAGE D-DAY DAVE! Always cranking dat thing.
Posts: 18,224
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Post by Dave at the Movies on Jan 4, 2012 14:31:22 GMT -5
I'm not going to say that the kid shouldn't be punished for murder, but maybe at least this will be used in the future to scare bullies into thinking twice. If Columbine didn't scare bullies nothing will.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,282
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Post by The Ichi on Jan 4, 2012 14:31:29 GMT -5
Come to think of, I am a bit disturbed he had a knife to begin with. Almost as if he wanted to be provoked so he could use it. I know this is America but I'm assuming you can't just carry knives in school.
Besides, everyone knows now that powerbombs are the real weapons against bullies.
My thoughts are the same though. He should be punished but I hate bullying more than almost anything else in the World, so if this at least sends a message then that's something.
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Post by Red Impact on Jan 4, 2012 14:34:22 GMT -5
Come to think of, I am a bit disturbed he had a knife to begin with. Almost as if he wanted to be provoked so he could use it. I know this is America but I'm assuming you can't just carry knives in school. My thoughts are the same though. He should be punished but I hate bullying more than almost anything else in the World, so if this at least sends a message then that's something. You can't, and that's what rubbed me wrong about the case. He apparently brought the knife on the day of the fight, and even if I think he was acting in self defense against an older student, and even if I would commend him for at least trying to avoid a fight, the fact that he brought it on school grounds really rubs me the wrong way. I don't think he should get off for that, even if I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who instigated a fight even after his target tried to flee.
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Dave at the Movies
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
VINTAGE D-DAY DAVE! Always cranking dat thing.
Posts: 18,224
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Post by Dave at the Movies on Jan 4, 2012 14:36:18 GMT -5
What happen to the more innocent days when you could just act crazy and do a weird dance to get out of a fight?
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Post by Cyno on Jan 4, 2012 14:36:44 GMT -5
Come to think of, I am a bit disturbed he had a knife to begin with. Almost as if he wanted to be provoked so he could use it. I know this is America but I'm assuming you can't just carry knives in school. My thoughts are the same though. He should be punished but I hate bullying more than almost anything else in the World, so if this at least sends a message then that's something. You can't, and that's what rubbed me wrong about the case. He apparently brought the knife on the day of the fight, and even if I think he was acting in self defense against an older student, and even if I would commend him for at least trying to avoid a fight, the fact that he brought it on school grounds really rubs me the wrong way. Yeah, that rubs me the wrong way. He should be punished for bringing a weapon onto school grounds. Though, even though someone was killed with it, it'd probably be school suspension/community service. Though I don't know how intolerant the schools are these days with weapons that aren't firearms. Especially since it was apparently a pocket knife and not like some big-ass butcher knife or something.
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Dave at the Movies
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
VINTAGE D-DAY DAVE! Always cranking dat thing.
Posts: 18,224
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Post by Dave at the Movies on Jan 4, 2012 14:40:27 GMT -5
You can't, and that's what rubbed me wrong about the case. He apparently brought the knife on the day of the fight, and even if I think he was acting in self defense against an older student, and even if I would commend him for at least trying to avoid a fight, the fact that he brought it on school grounds really rubs me the wrong way. Yeah, that rubs me the wrong way. He should be punished for bringing a weapon onto school grounds. Though, even though someone was killed with it, it'd probably be school suspension/community service. Though I don't know how intolerant the schools are these days with weapons that aren't firearms. In some places they will expel a kid for bringing a knife to school. I know some kids have been for just bringing toy guns to school which is ridiculous.
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Post by Psy on Jan 4, 2012 14:42:44 GMT -5
It's a sad story all around. Under the law he's allowed to defend himself more aggressively than he is attacked, I guess to try to deter further attacks. What's more, 12 stabbings makes me think the other kid did not stop attacking him after he pulled out his knife. He tried multiple times to avoid confrontration, but the bully had it in for him. Strikes to the back of the head can do severe damage.
I don't think the bully deserved to die, but I don't think the other kid deserves jail time for killing him *unless* the bully ceased all aggression towards him after he pulled out the knife. Apparently there were witnesses. One would think some of them would have noticed that sort of thing. One would f***ing hope that they'd have held the knife-wielder back from f***ing killing another kid, but then again, maybe they're all kids too.
Just a sad story all around. I feel bad for everyone involved.
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Frosty
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 3,800
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Post by Frosty on Jan 4, 2012 14:42:56 GMT -5
To provide some more detailed information about the situation (based on the article),
Students said Dylan (the kid killed) had several other altercations with Jorge, including one incident where he "lobbed" something at Jorge from the back of the bus.
The altercation from Dylan escalated so much, that Jorge also skipped school and bus rides to avoid Dylan.
It was also noted that Dylan and two of his friends antagonized Jorge with several "taunting comments."
It was also noted that on the day of the fight, several students had announced the fight on the bus. After hearing this, Jorge got off several stops earlier than where the fight was going to take place as an attempt to prevent the fight. He was followed by Dylan and several students and eventually hit behind the head. He then attempted to leave the situation, but was stopped.
According to this sentence, "(He) was under attack from the first punch to the back of his head," he was attacked by more than a single punch, and retaliated by stabbing "Dylan Nuno 12 times in the chest and abdomen. Two of the blows caused fatal wounds, including one that nicked his heart."
"The judge said (Jorge) had 'no duty to retreat' and was 'legally entitled to meet force with force, even deadly force.'"
"The defendant was in a place where he had a right to be and was not acting unlawfully. He had more than enough reason to believe he was in danger of death or great bodily harm."
The article also said that Jorge had shown the knife to students earlier the afternoon of the incident. It seems sorta thrown in there as an, "oh by the way," so I'm not really sure what to make of it.
Again, this is just a very sad situation to read about. I'm sure that the lives of Dylan's friends and family have been turned upside down, and the same for Jorge's. I don't think most people could walk away from killing someone with ease.
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Post by Display Name on Jan 4, 2012 14:43:30 GMT -5
To you people that think this kid deserves to get away with murder..I wanna stuff you into a locker and take your lunch money.As someone that got some crap during high school,I think this is pretty f***in' extreme.
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Post by Red Impact on Jan 4, 2012 14:45:50 GMT -5
To you people that think this kid deserves to get away with murder..I wanna stuff you into a locker and take your lunch money.As someone that got some crap during high school,I think this is pretty f***in' extreme. If you think it's all about bullying, you miss the point. This wasn't a kid who snapped, he was being attacked at that moment, he was outnumbered and the kids were older than him. What makes it questionable is the fact that he had a knife, but I think it's ridiculous if anyone is insinuating that you don't have the right to defend yourself when you're being attacked. And once you have the right to defend yourself, you can't expect people to be completely mechanical and measure exactly how much for they need. You're being powered by adrenaline at that point. When you take out all the other factors, he was being attacked, he had a weapon, and he used it on the people who were attacking him. The context gives us a more complete view on the two, but under the letter of the law, the kid did have a right to protect himself as he did.
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