kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by kidglov3s on Jan 4, 2012 17:52:46 GMT -5
I think they're either reading what they wanted to read, or are outright lying about reading the entire article (let's face it: people lie to look smart all the time). Because the opinions expressed aren't supported at all by the situation as reported in the article. If you get that after what was reported, that "people making fun of me = license to kill," as some have expressed here, you really need to re-read the article. Or read it better. This went far beyond simple bullying. If we're talking about reading what people want to read, then let's talk about how multiple people have referenced how this kid was jumped by numerous people, when, in the article, it makes absolutely no mention whatsoever, of him being attacked by anyone other than the initial attacker. In fact, the only time it makes any reference to a physical attack, is the initial punch to the back of the head. There's no reference to the cronies circling him like sharks, or brutally assaulting him in a gang-like manner. What is says is that he was punched in the back of the head, made one attempt to escape the situation, then stabbed the other person 12 times. So, if we're criticizing people for jumping to conclusions without fully reading the article, because they want to appear smart, as you've put it, then don't forget to place the blame on those who've mislabeled this as some sort of gang mentality attack on one person. Their presence accompanying him alone increases the threat presented.
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Jan 4, 2012 17:55:26 GMT -5
Personally, I think the bullied kid could have handled this better. If you know you're going to get jumped, go to an adult, even if it's only a bus driver. In this case, he also could have just stayed on the bus, where he'd have some measure of security, until the bullies gave up and left or the bus came to the end of its route and the bus driver would be forced to get involved.
But, that said... c'mon. He was hunted down and attacked by 3 older boys. He used the knife to defend himself, and while the end result is regrettable... it's certainly nothing that should be used to ruin his life. I think some form of punishment would be suitable for the way he handled the situation, but being convicted of murder certainly isn't it.
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by BRV on Jan 4, 2012 17:57:46 GMT -5
If we're talking about reading what people want to read, then let's talk about how multiple people have referenced how this kid was jumped by numerous people, when, in the article, it makes absolutely no mention whatsoever, of him being attacked by anyone other than the initial attacker. In fact, the only time it makes any reference to a physical attack, is the initial punch to the back of the head. There's no reference to the cronies circling him like sharks, or brutally assaulting him in a gang-like manner. What is says is that he was punched in the back of the head, made one attempt to escape the situation, then stabbed the other person 12 times. So, if we're criticizing people for jumping to conclusions without fully reading the article, because they want to appear smart, as you've put it, then don't forget to place the blame on those who've mislabeled this as some sort of gang mentality attack on one person. Their presence accompanying him alone increases the threat presented. An awful lot of hypotheticals are being presented by those who agree with the judge's ruling: - What if they were going to beat him to death? - What if one of them had a weapon? - What if the other people there were to get involved? Well, none of those things happened. From everything culled in that article, only three things are known, absolute facts about what happened after the student left the bus: a punch was thrown, the victim attempted to escape, a person was stabbed 12 times. I still fail to see how, based on those three facts alone, this is justifiable.
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Post by Red Impact on Jan 4, 2012 17:58:03 GMT -5
If we're talking about reading what people want to read, then let's talk about how multiple people have referenced how this kid was jumped by numerous people, when, in the article, it makes absolutely no mention whatsoever, of him being attacked by anyone other than the initial attacker. In fact, the only time it makes any reference to a physical attack, is the initial punch to the back of the head. There's no reference to the cronies circling him like sharks, or brutally assaulting him in a gang-like manner. What is says is that he was punched in the back of the head, made one attempt to escape the situation, then stabbed the other person 12 times. So, if we're criticizing people for jumping to conclusions without fully reading the article, because they want to appear smart, as you've put it, then don't forget to place the blame on those who've mislabeled this as some sort of gang mentality attack on one person. Their presence accompanying him alone increases the threat presented. Pretty much. Yes, it's incorrect to assume that multiple people attacked him. However, the story states that there were several students with the attacker. It also says the victim attempted to get away, which indicates that that attempt was thwarted somehow. Was that by Nuno himself or by the other students? We don't know. But to the person being attacked, it all appears several guys with Nuno, and him alone. That definitely gives reason to assume that the gang mentality could manifest itself, at the very least in the mind of the victim. Their presence accompanying him alone increases the threat presented. An awful lot of hypotheticals are being presented by those who agree with the judge's ruling: - What if they were going to beat him to death? - What if one of them had a weapon? - What if the other people there were to get involved? Well, none of those things happened. From everything culled in that article, only three things are known, absolute facts about what happened after the student left the bus: a punch was thrown, the victim attempted to escape, a person was stabbed 12 times. I still fail to see how, based on those three facts alone, this is justifiable. Not at all. I only presented hypotheticals in response to "broken bones and bruises heal" statements, ie: getting beat up isn't as bad as killing someone, because I don't think it's a reasonable stance to believe he should have to get beat up, especially when you don't know how far they'd go. You're right, it didn't happen, the bully also didn't let him run away, or get stopped by an adult, or any of a hundred other things that would have prevented it. I think you have to look solely at the facts of the case, and the facts of the case as presented in the story are consistent with how I've seen Stand Your Ground apply in the past. - Kid tries to avoid the fight from someone he believes intends to physical harm him - The older student follows him and attacks him, unprovoked - The kid still tries to escape, a measure which is somehow thwarted (otherwise it wouldn't be called attempted escape) - The kid uses a weapon to defend himself, ultimately stabbing the kid to death (number of times doesn't matter, only the amount of time between stabs, and since the story doesn't state what would be a crucial fact as "he waited 30 seconds between stabs," I can only surmise that they were consecutive). That's textbook self-defense to me. And really, the only facts that ultimately matter were the attacker approaching in a menacing way (the fact that he threw the first punch shows this) and the victim responded with force after feeling he was threatened. The unsettling action on the part of the victim was bringing a knife, and I think he should have been punished for having that on school grounds. However once you're attacked, and if you have reasonable cause to believe that someone intends to physically harm you, you have the right to use force to defend yourself. That's how it's justifiable to me, it's tragic that it came to that, but that's what the self-defense laws exist for. To protect people who respond to immediate threats of physical harm. There are ways it wouldn't be justified, but the story doesn't state that those things happened.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Jan 4, 2012 18:03:44 GMT -5
Their presence accompanying him alone increases the threat presented. An awful lot of hypotheticals are being presented by those who agree with the judge's ruling: - What if they were going to beat him to death? - What if one of them had a weapon? - What if the other people there were to get involved? Well, none of those things happened. From everything culled in that article, only three things are known, absolute facts about what happened after the student left the bus: a punch was thrown, the victim attempted to escape, a person was stabbed 12 times. I still fail to see how, based on those three facts alone, this is justifiable. I think the most significant fact is that Jorge got off on an earlier stop to avoid them and they got off to track him down after he did that. They wanted this fight and they got it.
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King Ghidorah
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Post by King Ghidorah on Jan 4, 2012 18:07:30 GMT -5
Their presence accompanying him alone increases the threat presented. An awful lot of hypotheticals are being presented by those who agree with the judge's ruling: - What if they were going to beat him to death? - What if one of them had a weapon? - What if the other people there were to get involved? Well, none of those things happened. From everything culled in that article, only three things are known, absolute facts about what happened after the student left the bus: a punch was thrown, the victim attempted to escape, a person was stabbed 12 times. I still fail to see how, based on those three facts alone, this is justifiable. Excuse me, I'm supposed to think 3 huge guys don't want to commit bodily harm to me, in not looking to analyze the situation, I'm thinking how can I get out of this. Once that first punch is thrown, that's it. Once he got off the boss and they followed thinking they won't hurt him is out of the question. Once again, the number of stab wounds make no difference, only 2 of the stabs actually killed him, makes no difference.
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Jan 4, 2012 18:08:36 GMT -5
I think the justifiability of the 12 stabbings depends on how exactly it played out, which is something none of us here will likely ever know but was presumably presented to the judge who ruled on this case.
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Frosty
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Post by Frosty on Jan 4, 2012 18:09:49 GMT -5
Honestly, it doesn't matter what anyone assumes because, based on evidence, the judge ruled that the boy's actions of defending himself fell within the boundaries of the law.
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Arrow
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Post by Arrow on Jan 4, 2012 19:11:58 GMT -5
Let this be a lesson - violence just brings more violence, and if you bully the wrong kid, you may end up dead. Just leave people alone and live your damn life. This is what I take away from the incident more than anything else. In the end, you don't really know anybody nor do you really know the full effects your actions have on them. In many cases, you don't completely know how they're going to respond. I would think, especially post-Columbine, that people would keep this in mind more than ever. As for the article itself, it's a bad situation all around, but from the sound of things it could have been avoided if he'd just left the guy alone. I don't support Jorge bringing a knife onto school grounds, and I think he should get some sort of punishment for that, but I don't really have any sympathy for the victim nor am I going to judge Jorge for doing what he did. As terrible as it sounds to say this, the bully brought this on himself by being an asshole and got what he deserved. Hopefully, the other guys who were around him will get the message. I think the judge made the right choice in accordance to the law. It's just too bad that things had to end up this way.
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Mac
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Mac on Jan 4, 2012 19:12:08 GMT -5
Honestly, it doesn't matter what anyone assumes because, based on evidence, the judge ruled that the boy's actions of defending himself fell within the boundaries of the law. So opinions no longer matter or are open for debate because a judge made a ruling on it? Whatever, judges make awful decisions all the time. I think one is questionable at the very least.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jan 4, 2012 19:23:33 GMT -5
I was bullied in elementary, middle school, and part of high school. I'm willing to bet most people growing up were bullied in one way or another at some point in their life. It is not an excuse. Agreed - everyone is bullied at some point. Either at school, at home, at work - it happens to everyone. So next time somebody a clique of girls at work exclude me from something I can kill them? Just because I'd do anything to have them leave me along. I'm not gonna say killing is right,or that he should cleared off.But this kind of comment,i will say, it's ridiculous Excluding you from something is not bullying!When you are ocne it's fine,it's okay,one time a year,each 6 months,they make a joke.that is not true bullying When someone makes your whole childhood a living hell,torment you everyday,dont stop until making you cry,getting a whole lot of people everyday to mock you,make a joke of you,call you everything. In resume,make you suffer your whole childhood.THAT is bullying,not having someone exclude you from something once,people posting comments like the one i quoted,obviously never handled TRUE bullying. I myself already stabbed someone over bullying,i will admit,but it was once in the arm,with a pencil.Guess what?For some mysterious reasonthe bullying got easier to handle,still was there tough.No way i'm saying every vicitm should stab the bully 12 times,and he should punished,treated too,but not as hard as any murder.And it surely was self defense on the start at least.I cant be sure after the first 2-3 stabs,it was defense or pure rage.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2012 19:52:44 GMT -5
I never understood the "Well I went through *blank* and I didn't do *blank*" attitude that comes out in situations like this, especially since it's a pointless comment. You're not the kid, so it doesn't matter what you would or wouldn't do. Too many variables in life to assume decisions like that are easy to make for one person as they are for another.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Jan 4, 2012 20:13:57 GMT -5
Well...yea. Wouldn't you be angry if some asshole wouldnt leave you alone and kept hitting you for no reason? Not saying that stabbing the kid was the right option but he probably knew he would get his ass kicked if he tried to actually fight him, so he went with the option that would solve the problem the easiest. I feel bad for dylans family and friends, but that kid was asking for it. You feel bad for Dylan's friends? I don't feel one bit bad for Dylan's friends. I hope this caused them to reconsider their behavior. I didn't necessarily mean his friends that were involved with the bullying. I'm sure he had other friends and they're probably tore up about it. Then again, I do kind of feel bad for his friends that were actually there. Watching your friend get killed has got to be pretty traumatic. I think it's pretty safe to assume that they won't be bullying anybody else, that had to have been a hell of a life lesson. EDIT: So may I ask a question of the people that disagree with the judge's ruling? How is it a bad ruling? What would you have done differently if you were that judge? Hell, what would you have done differently if you were the kid? Put yourself in his situation. Imagine that you're walking home one day and a group of men attack you. They're bigger than you, and there's more of them. The only means of defending yourself is a knife that you carry for protection. Do you really mean to tell me that you would just roll over and get your ass handed to you? You wouldn't do whatever it takes to escape that situation without harm? Then you must be Ghandi or something, and I commend you. But that doesn't mean that you should hold a 15 year old teenager up to your same holier than thou standards.
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Jan 4, 2012 20:25:14 GMT -5
Let this be a lesson - violence just brings more violence, and if you bully the wrong kid, you may end up dead. Just leave people alone and live your damn life. This is what I take away from the incident more than anything else. In the end, you don't really know anybody nor do you really know the full effects your actions have on them. In many cases, you don't completely know how they're going to respond. I would think, especially post-Columbine, that people would keep this in mind more than ever. As for the article itself, it's a bad situation all around, but from the sound of things it could have been avoided if he'd just left the guy alone. I don't support Jorge bringing a knife onto school grounds, and I think he should get some sort of punishment for that, but I don't really have any sympathy for the victim nor am I going to judge Jorge for doing what he did. As terrible as it sounds to say this, the bully brought this on himself by being an asshole and got what he deserved. Hopefully, the other guys who were around him will get the message. I think the judge made the right choice in accordance to the law. It's just too bad that things had to end up this way. While I agree that the bully brought it on himself by attacking the kid, I strongly disagree with the notion that he deserved to die.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
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Post by The OP on Jan 4, 2012 20:30:32 GMT -5
Their presence accompanying him alone increases the threat presented. An awful lot of hypotheticals are being presented by those who agree with the judge's ruling: - What if they were going to beat him to death? - What if one of them had a weapon? - What if the other people there were to get involved? Well, none of those things happened. From everything culled in that article, only three things are known, absolute facts about what happened after the student left the bus: a punch was thrown, the victim attempted to escape, a person was stabbed 12 times. I still fail to see how, based on those three facts alone, this is justifiable. No offense, but you're missing the point. A Judge, and a team of prosecutors whose job it is to try to charge people with crimes all ruled this a justifiable homicide. You don't agree though, because of a vaguely worded article you read on the FAN Forum and as a result you think you know better than all of those people. Does that really sound like a rational thought process to you? It's one thing to be skeptical, but some people in the thread (not you) have said based on reading this article that the kid is a murderer who should do hard time and then treat their opinion like it's equal to that of the Judge who presided over the case, was therefore privy to a LOT more information, and is a freakin' Judge. I'm sorry but all opinions are not created equal, some are more informed than others.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Jan 4, 2012 21:05:18 GMT -5
So we'll try this again. Quit attacking each other.
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Post by Piccolo on Jan 4, 2012 21:31:28 GMT -5
It sounds like he:
-Was repeatedly non-physically harassed leading up to this -Was apprised that he was going to be physically beaten that day -Brought a weapon just in case -Avoided the fight by getting off the bus early -Was hunted down by the attacker and his allies -Was hit more than once as he tried to leave the scene -Snapped and let loose on his attacker
In my opinion, he did a lot to try to avoid getting into the physical confrontation, and was threatened by the presence of multiple allies of his attacker. If you don't think a pack of young men can kill you with their fists and feet, you are naive. And I would imagine it is a nasty, nasty way to go.
When someone attacks you, they're signaling their intent to harm. They may not intend to kill you, but you don't know one way or the other, and you cannot afford, in any way, shape, or form, to put yourself at their mercy. Especially not when you are outnumbered and have been repeatedly stopped from leaving the situation.
You have two options once the blows start to fall on your head: Let yourself get beaten, and hope your attacker makes it quick and non-lethal, or render your attacker incapable of doing you any more harm. I doubt the victim meant to kill his attacker here. I also doubt he could've evened the odds without his weapon. He took a risk that had a tragic ending.
But that being said, is this kid going to go out and attack your sister with a knife? Is he a danger in and of himself, that we should lock him up for decades? No. He wasn't able to subdue his attacker non-lethally, but he didn't attack anyone and repeatedly tried to leave when someone signaled their intent to attack him. I think what happened is awful, and I don't think the attacker deserved to die. But you take a risk when you attack someone else, and that risk is that they're carrying a knife or a gun, or they're a better fighter than you. You enter into a state of war, from which you might not walk away. And you have to understand and accept those risks if you're going to do violence to another human being.
I'm sorry for both their families, and I wish this could've had a better ending.
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mizerable
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Post by mizerable on Jan 4, 2012 21:39:58 GMT -5
I don't see how anyone can advocate this. It's a small step up from shooting up the school. There's always alternatives to these sort of things.
You know what I would do when I was bullied? I would kick his ass or egg his house or something, depending on how intimidating it was. Something to send a message but not long lasting.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with challenging someone to a fight, even if you lose. I challenged a guy to a fight when I was 17 because he would not leave me alone. I got bullied in middle school relentlessly, to the point I almost changed schools. However by high school, people didn't do it nearly as much and by junior year it was almost non-existent...except for one kid. He antagonized me relentlessly, everywhere I would go and everything I would do, he would start s*** with me. He would physically push me, spit at me, threaten me, put me down etc etc. He was about the same size as me and I figured I could take him, so I finally manned up and challenged him to a fight.
Well, it didn't go as good as I thought it would. I lost. I had braces at the time, and my lower lip was absolutely smashed into my bottom teeth, to the point I couldn't close my mouth. Both of us ended up getting suspended, and as a follow up, the school made damn sure to keep us away from one another. I didn't have any problems from that day forward. However, it was a blessing in disguise since the idiot got suspended again close to 2 months later and since it was his third suspension in 1 semester, he wasn't able to come back...so he didn't even get to graduate with his friends.
Am I upset I lost the fight? I used to be. But in the long run, I realize I stood up for myself and did what I had to do to put an end to things, and it actually worked. The only thing that was hurt was my ego, but in the long run...his ego was hurt worse. There's never an excuse to kill someone unless you're presented the same.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
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Post by The OP on Jan 4, 2012 21:45:54 GMT -5
So you're saying, don't kill someone unless they kill you first?
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Post by Cela on Jan 4, 2012 21:59:01 GMT -5
Based on the facts presented in the article, I applaud this decision.
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