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Post by revolver86 on Jan 2, 2013 18:18:45 GMT -5
I thino his biggest issue is he doesn't have an intimidating voice, which is fine for a monster like Brock Lesnar, but bad for a "vanilla midget" who has to be a 10/10 in every aspect to be a top dog. Here's a question...someone name me five guys on the regular roster that are a better promo than Dolph!
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Post by eldandyjamupguy on Jan 2, 2013 18:21:13 GMT -5
Promos are by far the biggest hole in Ziggler's game.
He has awful delivery and he has literally zero presence when he gets on the mic.
Great in ring. Great look. Mediocre promo.
and LOL at people saying he's a top 5 promo in the company. He's in the top half because their are quite a few unknowns who don't get a chance to talk, but he is not even a top 10 promo.
Punk Cena Christian Barrett Miz Ambrose Lesnar Sandow Sheamus Riley Otunga Bryan
All have a significantly better promo. I know people will flip at my opinion of Riley and Otunga having a better promo because people can;t get over the hurdle that they both are the drizzling s***s in the ring, but the short time they have been given with a mic they have nailed their promos/pre-tapes. This is a guy who needed Vickie Guerrero for 3 years and now needs AJ to get heat because he has no idea how to get it himself. Does he even know how to work a crowd on the mic?
Right now I would rate Ziggler's promo at a 6 on the Bret Hart scale and I only think he'll be able to pull it up to a 7. If he hasn't taken that next step in almost 5 years, then truthfully their is not much more growth for him. Don't get me wrong, Dolph is not a bad promo, rather middle of the road. Middle of the road can be good enough.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
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Post by Dub H on Jan 2, 2013 18:33:02 GMT -5
Otung,Riley,miz,LESNAR?
Sorry no.Dolph IS in the top 10,he delivers in the mi and saying the charisma vacuum Riley or LESNAR is beter than him is ridiculous.
I think your description of Dolph is actually to Lesnar.Lesnar is EVERYTHING except a Promo man.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jan 2, 2013 18:37:06 GMT -5
and LOL at people saying he's a top 5 promo in the company. He's in the top half because their are quite a few unknowns who don't get a chance to talk, but he is not even a top 10 promo. Punk Cena Christian Barrett Miz Ambrose LesnarSandow Sheamus Riley Otunga Bryan Lesnar? Really? he's a classic example of a guy who can't talk. The guy has grown from a 3 to a 6 or 7 in the last couple of years, never mind the last 5. There's plenty of time for him to improve even more at this rate.
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Post by eldandyjamupguy on Jan 2, 2013 18:38:30 GMT -5
Agree to disagree.
I can digress on Brock because I look at his heel mic work in UFC (granted, small sample size considering how long he has been around), but Riley shined during his NXT pre-tapes and promos over anything Dolph has ever done. Riley doesn't have as good a look as Ziggler and he is not even in the same stratosphere in the ring as Ziggler, but Riley has a better promo.
As a complete package, Ziggler is probably top 5. His promo? different story.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jan 2, 2013 18:39:35 GMT -5
Agree to disagree. I can digress on Brock, but Riley shined during his NXT pre-tapes and promos over anything Dolph has ever done. Riley doesn't have as good a look as Ziggler and he is not even in the same stratosphere in the ring as Ziggler, but Riley has a better promo. As a complete package, Ziggler is closer to being top 5. His promo? different story. As a Promoman i could easily say 5 over ziggler,but i think he belongs on 10 If you said at least Riley after breaking with Miz...i could see your point,but Riley was hist most boring at NXT.Including pre-tapes.But guess as you said,agree to disagree
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Post by Pgarodactyl on Jan 2, 2013 18:39:53 GMT -5
Seriously, I'm wondering how people are still in the view that The Miz is a good promo guy. I've been soured on him for a LONG time.
Dolph is serviceable. This past Raw, outside of the couple of cracks, was certainly not an indictment of his promo abilities. If anything, I felt he was believable in his role, and as he gets more and more exposure on microphone, his comfort level will rise, as will his strengths.
And for his cocky demeanor to work, he has to win matches... and guess what? That's on BOOKING, not Dolph.
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 2, 2013 18:39:56 GMT -5
Agree to disagree. I can digress on Brock, but Riley shined during his NXT pre-tapes and promos over anything Dolph has ever done. Riley doesn't have as good a look as Ziggler and he is not even in the same stratosphere in the ring as Ziggler, but Riley has a better promo. As a complete package, Ziggler is closer to being top 5. His promo? different story. Exactly. People tend to let one's in-ring skill affect how they view their promo ability. I created the thread and I'm a HUGE Ziggler fan, but no chance he's a top 5 promo in the company.
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PKO
King Koopa
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Post by PKO on Jan 2, 2013 18:43:13 GMT -5
I think he's fine, leaning towards good.
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Post by Red Impact on Jan 2, 2013 18:43:42 GMT -5
I think he's far from bad on the mic. He's delivered some fantastic promos, far better than most other guys on the roster. He's not at Punk's level, definitely, but he's better than plenty of other main eventers in WWE's history.
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 2, 2013 18:45:30 GMT -5
I think he's far from bad on the mic. He's delivered some fantastic promos, far better than most other guys on the roster. He's not at Punk's level, definitely, but he's better than plenty of other main eventers in WWE's history. How many former main eventers his size or smaller is he better on the mic than?
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jan 2, 2013 18:47:53 GMT -5
I think he's far from bad on the mic. He's delivered some fantastic promos, far better than most other guys on the roster. He's not at Punk's level, definitely, but he's better than plenty of other main eventers in WWE's history. How many former main eventers his size or smaller is he better on the mic than? Bret Hart would be probably anyone top choice. Rey Mysterio i guess. Randy Orton,for me at least. That just from the top of my head
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Post by Pgarodactyl on Jan 2, 2013 18:52:15 GMT -5
I think he's far from bad on the mic. He's delivered some fantastic promos, far better than most other guys on the roster. He's not at Punk's level, definitely, but he's better than plenty of other main eventers in WWE's history. How many former main eventers his size or smaller is he better on the mic than? Alright, I'll take a crack at this one... what are we considering "his size or smaller"? Exact weight? Or can I play with it a little bit? You know what, I'm going to play... This is from WWE Champions in the past 10 years... 1) Alberto Del Rio 2) The Miz 3) Rey Mysterio 4) Randy Orton 5) Jeff Hardy 6) Rob Van Dam 7) * (I would put Brock Lesnar here, but his size DQs him) 8) * (Ditto Batista as a face... Douchetista was amazing) Now, World Champions. Again, last 10 years... A little harder. Repeat Hardy, Orton and Mysterio. Add in He Who Shall Not Be Named. I tend to find him to be on par with Edge and Christian on average, and has shown that he can get to Jericho level with enough time and seasoning. Those are only Champions in the past 10 years. Doesn't take into consideration other main eventers/challengers.
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Jimmy
Grimlock
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Post by Jimmy on Jan 2, 2013 18:52:26 GMT -5
I think he's far from bad on the mic. He's delivered some fantastic promos, far better than most other guys on the roster. He's not at Punk's level, definitely, but he's better than plenty of other main eventers in WWE's history. How many former main eventers his size or smaller is he better on the mic than? Jeff Hardy Chris Benoit Eddie Guerrero (he didn't hit his stride until his main event push) Rey Mysterio Bret Hart Bob Backlund And those are only former world champs, not even counting all main eventers. Really though, why even ask that question? What does height and weight have to do with Ziggler's abilities?
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 2, 2013 19:00:13 GMT -5
How many former main eventers his size or smaller is he better on the mic than? Jeff Hardy Chris Benoit Eddie Guerrero (he didn't hit his stride until his main event push) Rey Mysterio Bret Hart Bob Backlund And those are only former world champs, not even counting all main eventers. Really though, why even ask that question? What does height and weight have to do with Ziggler's abilities? Main eventers need to have a mix of size/presence, work rate, charisma and mic skills. If you're lacking in one area then you need to make up for it in another. It's pretty common sensical.
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 2, 2013 19:02:53 GMT -5
How many former main eventers his size or smaller is he better on the mic than? Alright, I'll take a crack at this one... what are we considering "his size or smaller"? Exact weight? Or can I play with it a little bit? You know what, I'm going to play... This is from WWE Champions in the past 10 years... 1) Alberto Del Rio 2) The Miz 3) Rey Mysterio 4) Randy Orton 5) Jeff Hardy 6) Rob Van Dam 7) * (I would put Brock Lesnar here, but his size DQs him) 8) * (Ditto Batista as a face... Douchetista was amazing) Now, World Champions. Again, last 10 years... A little harder. Repeat Hardy, Orton and Mysterio. Add in He Who Shall Not Be Named. I tend to find him to be on par with Edge and Christian on average, and has shown that he can get to Jericho level with enough time and seasoning. Those are only Champions in the past 10 years. Doesn't take into consideration other main eventers/challengers. Del Rio's bigger and better on the mic (his character is boring, but his mic skills are there). Miz is better on the mic (though he's not "good" either). Orton is about half a foot bigger than Ziggler. Van Dam was a champ but never really made it as a full-time consistent main eventer. Bret originally wasn't very good but he got to be better than Ziggler currently is. Mysterio and Hardy are the exceptions to the rule I suppose, but they both have a look that makes them much more unique than Ziggler.
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Post by Pgarodactyl on Jan 2, 2013 19:07:48 GMT -5
Alright, I'll take a crack at this one... what are we considering "his size or smaller"? Exact weight? Or can I play with it a little bit? You know what, I'm going to play... This is from WWE Champions in the past 10 years... 1) Alberto Del Rio 2) The Miz 3) Rey Mysterio 4) Randy Orton 5) Jeff Hardy 6) Rob Van Dam 7) * (I would put Brock Lesnar here, but his size DQs him) 8) * (Ditto Batista as a face... Douchetista was amazing) Now, World Champions. Again, last 10 years... A little harder. Repeat Hardy, Orton and Mysterio. Add in He Who Shall Not Be Named. I tend to find him to be on par with Edge and Christian on average, and has shown that he can get to Jericho level with enough time and seasoning. Those are only Champions in the past 10 years. Doesn't take into consideration other main eventers/challengers. Del Rio's bigger and better on the mic (his character is boring, but his mic skills are there). Miz is better on the mic (though he's not "good" either). Orton is about half a foot bigger than Ziggler. Van Dam was a champ but never really made it as a full-time consistent main eventer. Bret originally wasn't very good but he got to be better than Ziggler currently is. Mysterio and Hardy are the exceptions to the rule I suppose, but they both have a look that makes them much more unique than Ziggler. So, if I understand this correctly, your tact is to ask for opinions based on qualities that cannot be quantifiably measured, then when people give opinions, you basically try to write them off because your opinion differs? Am I in the ballpark here? If that's the case, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. No, Del Rio nor Miz are better than Ziggler. We can keep going around and around with this without coming to an agreement. It is what it is.
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Jan 2, 2013 19:19:27 GMT -5
I agree, though he's at his best when he's channeling '99 Jericho. Stupid cocky, screaming, whiny, talented-but-chickens***. The key to backing this all up is having him WIN, so he's not just a loser heel. But when's just being "haha, I'm a bad guy, I have a briefcase, I'm a jerk, look at me" it's pretty boring. if he's winning why is he whining?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2013 19:23:23 GMT -5
I thought he wasn't bad but couldn't help but notice his voice cracking like a 13yo trying to ask out the homecoming queen every few words. I've always thought this as well, but lately, I've realized he's doing that on purpose since he's supposed to be a basic 80s jock stereotype.
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Post by BorneAgain on Jan 2, 2013 19:30:34 GMT -5
Ziggler's good at showing embarrassment and intensity, but I actually find his cocky/arrogant stuff harder to buy. There always seems to be some self-consciousness/doubt that prevents me from getting into his bragging promos.
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