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Post by YiHammer on Jan 2, 2013 19:30:43 GMT -5
How the blazes can someone say the Miz has good promos but say Zigglers sound forced?
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Post by Red Impact on Jan 2, 2013 19:36:16 GMT -5
Del Rio has yet to perform a great promo in the WWE, so yeah, Ziggler is better, and I say that as a Del Rio fan.
Ziggler is better than Orton, and if it's not at least 6 inches (they're 4 apart), they're close enough to the same size to count it.
Bret Hart was worse on the mic when he first became a main eventer, so why are you comparing him at the end of his run to what Ziggler is when he first seems to be legitimately sniffing the main event?
And his skills are more than adequate for the main event. His Foley and AJ promos showed that. He has room to improve, and no one is saying otherwise, but he's not forced. Ryder is forced, Ziggler is leagues above that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2013 19:42:29 GMT -5
I think the guy's fine, and I feel like people expect too much out of wrestlers these days. He's super-talented in the ring drawing Mr. Pefect and Shawn Michaels comparisons, and can cut a perfectly fine promo, that's not good enough? He's not an elite talker but neither is anyone on the main roster outside of Punk/Cena/Show. He's better than the likes of Sheamus, Del Rio, Orton, not quite as good as Bryan. With how good he is in the ring he more than makes up for his over-exaggerated deficiencies on the mic. WWE's main event scene isn't exactly filled with incredible talent these days, you have to elevate your best guys, even if they're not Randy Savage or The Rock.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Jan 2, 2013 20:00:45 GMT -5
I think he's pretty bad. Everything he says sounds so forced, unnatural and scripted. Although that promo where he tore AJ apart was very good.
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 2, 2013 21:57:17 GMT -5
Del Rio's bigger and better on the mic (his character is boring, but his mic skills are there). Miz is better on the mic (though he's not "good" either). Orton is about half a foot bigger than Ziggler. Van Dam was a champ but never really made it as a full-time consistent main eventer. Bret originally wasn't very good but he got to be better than Ziggler currently is. Mysterio and Hardy are the exceptions to the rule I suppose, but they both have a look that makes them much more unique than Ziggler. So, if I understand this correctly, your tact is to ask for opinions based on qualities that cannot be quantifiably measured, then when people give opinions, you basically try to write them off because your opinion differs? Am I in the ballpark here? If that's the case, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. No, Del Rio nor Miz are better than Ziggler. We can keep going around and around with this without coming to an agreement. It is what it is. Huh? My tact? I'm a huge Ziggler mark, I was just pointing out something I think will hold him back from entering the next level. I only gave two opinions of about 10 you listed, Del Rio and Miz. Del Rio is definitely bigger. Miz is more in the ballpark and even if Ziggler's skills are on par with Miz, just about everyone considered Miz a failure as a main eventer.
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 2, 2013 22:00:24 GMT -5
How the blazes can someone say the Miz has good promos but say Zigglers sound forced? I actually specifically said that Miz gives better promos, but they're not "good" either.
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 2, 2013 22:07:44 GMT -5
Del Rio has yet to perform a great promo in the WWE, so yeah, Ziggler is better, and I say that as a Del Rio fan. Ziggler is better than Orton, and if it's not at least 6 inches (they're 4 apart), they're close enough to the same size to count it. Bret Hart was worse on the mic when he first became a main eventer, so why are you comparing him at the end of his run to what Ziggler is when he first seems to be legitimately sniffing the main event? 1- Del Rio has never performed a "great" promo because he's never really been given the chance to do anything besides his destiny stuff. When I'm talking about mic skills I'm talking about the voice and the delivery not the content since the wrestlers usually have nothing to do with the content. Dolph's voice and delivery usually have me not believing anything he says. 2- If you can't see a difference between Orton's size/presence/look and Ziggler's that warrants Orton not having to be great on the mic to be a legit main eventer then I don't know what to tell you. 3- And I'm comparing Bret at the end because Bret's early main event run (1992-1994) is largely considered a failure, and he actually bounced between mid-card and main event during this time. He's also worlds ahead of Ziggler in the ring (and Ziggler's pretty great himself). Ziggler to me is more like Mr. Perfect due to his selling and lack of a great offensive attack.
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Post by Dub H on Jan 2, 2013 22:29:09 GMT -5
Del Rio has yet to perform a great promo in the WWE, so yeah, Ziggler is better, and I say that as a Del Rio fan. Ziggler is better than Orton, and if it's not at least 6 inches (they're 4 apart), they're close enough to the same size to count it. Bret Hart was worse on the mic when he first became a main eventer, so why are you comparing him at the end of his run to what Ziggler is when he first seems to be legitimately sniffing the main event? 1- Del Rio has never performed a "great" promo because he's never really been given the chance to do anything besides his destiny stuff. When I'm talking about mic skills I'm talking about the voice and the delivery not the content since the wrestlers usually have nothing to do with the content. Dolph's voice and delivery usually have me not believing anything he says. 2- If you can't see a difference between Orton's size/presence/look and Ziggler's that warrants Orton not having to be great on the mic to be a legit main eventer then I don't know what to tell you. 3- And I'm comparing Bret at the end because Bret's early main event run (1992-1994) is largely considered a failure, and he actually bounced between mid-card and main event during this time. He's also worlds ahead of Ziggler in the ring (and Ziggler's pretty great himself). Ziggler to me is more like Mr. Perfect due to his selling and lack of a great offensive attack. Orton and Ziggler are basically the same size dude...Orton is not big,he not Batista,hell,he is not Cena size.He is in the same boat as Ziggler. And Del Rio has gotten MORE chances than Ziggler.The only "chance" you could say besides I AM COCKY,WOOO.MITB. Was the AJ promo and the Mick Foley Promo. And he delivered Also,you ask for examples,we give,the ones you can't find a subjective or nickpick reason you say they are EXCEPTIONS Well i guess as long there is people,they are exceptions!No,there is,there is no exception fo the rule.Jeff Hardy was big,he was a main eventer,he had mediocre mic skills and he was a main event,same to Rey. So there was.at that point,you have no more argument.
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Post by AdamAFL was sooooo wrong on Jan 2, 2013 22:33:39 GMT -5
I think he's pretty good. He's not spectacular but he's more than passable. He's got better mic skills than a lot of people who main evented over the years had.
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Post by Red Impact on Jan 2, 2013 22:49:31 GMT -5
Del Rio has yet to perform a great promo in the WWE, so yeah, Ziggler is better, and I say that as a Del Rio fan. Ziggler is better than Orton, and if it's not at least 6 inches (they're 4 apart), they're close enough to the same size to count it. Bret Hart was worse on the mic when he first became a main eventer, so why are you comparing him at the end of his run to what Ziggler is when he first seems to be legitimately sniffing the main event? 1- Del Rio has never performed a "great" promo because he's never really been given the chance to do anything besides his destiny stuff. When I'm talking about mic skills I'm talking about the voice and the delivery not the content since the wrestlers usually have nothing to do with the content. Dolph's voice and delivery usually have me not believing anything he says. 2- If you can't see a difference between Orton's size/presence/look and Ziggler's that warrants Orton not having to be great on the mic to be a legit main eventer then I don't know what to tell you. 3- And I'm comparing Bret at the end because Bret's early main event run (1992-1994) is largely considered a failure, and he actually bounced between mid-card and main event during this time. He's also worlds ahead of Ziggler in the ring (and Ziggler's pretty great himself). Ziggler to me is more like Mr. Perfect due to his selling and lack of a great offensive attack. 1- So am I. I haven't seen any promo by Del Rio that I thought were that well delivered or showed that much charisma. The best thing he's got on the mic is Ricardo. He's good, and like I said, I'm a rare Del Rio fan, but he's not shown any great promise in the WWE. 2 -They're 4 inches apart and in the same weight class. We're not exactly comparing Hogan and Hart here. I don't know what you're seeing to think there's this huge size difference. As far as presence goes, the only thing Orton has is arm tats and less stupid hair. His gimmick requires him to carry himself differently, but he doesn't have anything innate that Ziggler doesn't have. And Orton promos are still pretty terrible nowadays. 3- You can justify it any way you want, but it's not equal to compare a guy at the end of his career to a guy who is just building himself up to the ME level. When Bret was elevated, he wasn't as good on the mic as Ziggler is capable of being.
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 2, 2013 22:57:51 GMT -5
1- Del Rio has never performed a "great" promo because he's never really been given the chance to do anything besides his destiny stuff. When I'm talking about mic skills I'm talking about the voice and the delivery not the content since the wrestlers usually have nothing to do with the content. Dolph's voice and delivery usually have me not believing anything he says. 2- If you can't see a difference between Orton's size/presence/look and Ziggler's that warrants Orton not having to be great on the mic to be a legit main eventer then I don't know what to tell you. 3- And I'm comparing Bret at the end because Bret's early main event run (1992-1994) is largely considered a failure, and he actually bounced between mid-card and main event during this time. He's also worlds ahead of Ziggler in the ring (and Ziggler's pretty great himself). Ziggler to me is more like Mr. Perfect due to his selling and lack of a great offensive attack. 1- Not really. I haven't seen any promo by Del Rio that I thought were that well delivered or showed that much charisma. He's got great charisma in the ring, but on the mic he's been below average at best. 2 -They're 4 inches apart and in the same weight class. We're not exactly comparing Hogan and Hart here. I don't know what you're seeing to think there's this huge difference, but there's not, not in size. As far as presence goes, the only thing Orton has is arm tats and less stupid hair. His gimmick requires him to carry himself differently, but he doesn't have anything innate that Ziggler doesn't have. 3- You can justify it any way you want, but it's not equal to compare a guy at the end of his career to a guy who is just building himself up to the ME level. At this stage in his career and through the start of his ME run, Bret was not as good on the mic as Ziggler is now. 1- I guess people can disagree as to Del Rio vs. Ziggler when it comes to mic skills. That being said, Del Rio still isn't seen as a big-time main eventer anyway. I'm talking about next-level--Ziggler's already near or at Del Rio's level. 2- Orton is bigger, 4 inches is a big deal. Orton also has a more unique look/demeanor/presence and so he rarely even cuts promos. Dolph is a cookie cutter, smallish wrestler who needs his other attributes to stand out. 3- Why is it an unfair comparison? Bret wasn't elite/next-level type in his early run. I never said Ziggler could never become great on the mic, just that so far he hasn't shown much to think he has it in him. His voice is something that likely won't change either, I don't remember Bret sounding like he was going through puberty on air.
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 2, 2013 23:01:18 GMT -5
1- Del Rio has never performed a "great" promo because he's never really been given the chance to do anything besides his destiny stuff. When I'm talking about mic skills I'm talking about the voice and the delivery not the content since the wrestlers usually have nothing to do with the content. Dolph's voice and delivery usually have me not believing anything he says. 2- If you can't see a difference between Orton's size/presence/look and Ziggler's that warrants Orton not having to be great on the mic to be a legit main eventer then I don't know what to tell you. 3- And I'm comparing Bret at the end because Bret's early main event run (1992-1994) is largely considered a failure, and he actually bounced between mid-card and main event during this time. He's also worlds ahead of Ziggler in the ring (and Ziggler's pretty great himself). Ziggler to me is more like Mr. Perfect due to his selling and lack of a great offensive attack. Orton and Ziggler are basically the same size dude...Orton is not big,he not Batista,hell,he is not Cena size.He is in the same boat as Ziggler. And Del Rio has gotten MORE chances than Ziggler.The only "chance" you could say besides I AM COCKY,WOOO.MITB. Was the AJ promo and the Mick Foley Promo. And he delivered Also,you ask for examples,we give,the ones you can't find a subjective or nickpick reason you say they are EXCEPTIONS Well i guess as long there is people,they are exceptions!No,there is,there is no exception fo the rule.Jeff Hardy was big,he was a main eventer,he had mediocre mic skills and he was a main event,same to Rey. So there was.at that point,you have no more argument. So you think Rey and Jeff don't have something else that makes them standout? Dolph is a cookie-cutter wrestler so he needs the mic skills. Jeff Hardy and Rey have a look that is ten times that of Dolph's--they look like larger than life cartoon characters. If Rey and Jeff had the same wrestling skills and mic skills and looked like Ziggler, they wouldn't have been top main eventers. That seems like an objective reason to me to say that they're exceptions.
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Post by Dub H on Jan 2, 2013 23:09:41 GMT -5
Orton and Ziggler are basically the same size dude...Orton is not big,he not Batista,hell,he is not Cena size.He is in the same boat as Ziggler. And Del Rio has gotten MORE chances than Ziggler.The only "chance" you could say besides I AM COCKY,WOOO.MITB. Was the AJ promo and the Mick Foley Promo. And he delivered Also,you ask for examples,we give,the ones you can't find a subjective or nickpick reason you say they are EXCEPTIONS Well i guess as long there is people,they are exceptions!No,there is,there is no exception fo the rule.Jeff Hardy was big,he was a main eventer,he had mediocre mic skills and he was a main event,same to Rey. So there was.at that point,you have no more argument. So you think Rey and Jeff don't have something else that makes them standout? Dolph is a cookie-cutter wrestler so he needs the mic skills. Jeff Hardy and Rey have a look that is ten times that of Dolph's--they look like larger than life cartoon characters. If Rey and Jeff had the same wrestling skills and mic skills and looked like Ziggler, they wouldn't have been top main eventers. That seems like an objective reason to me to say that they're exceptions. See,nitpicking a reason that is not there,now that suddenly they are not exceptions. Ziggler DOES stand out.even if it is just because of the big chin + bleached hair.He has a LOOK about him,that WWE even changed and it didn't work,that LOOK is great and stand outs. Besides going over and over with the talent in ring that stands out,the fact that he makes every match look brutal.The great charisma and mannerisms but you will just come up with a reason because it is not true,so i will stop here,this will go nowhere,no one will change opinion
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 2, 2013 23:13:19 GMT -5
So you think Rey and Jeff don't have something else that makes them standout? Dolph is a cookie-cutter wrestler so he needs the mic skills. Jeff Hardy and Rey have a look that is ten times that of Dolph's--they look like larger than life cartoon characters. If Rey and Jeff had the same wrestling skills and mic skills and looked like Ziggler, they wouldn't have been top main eventers. That seems like an objective reason to me to say that they're exceptions. Ziggler DOES stand out.even if it is just because of the big chin + bleached hair.He has a LOOK about him,that WWE even changed and it didn't work,that LOOK is great and stand outs. Besides going over and over with the talent in ring that stands out,the fact that he makes every match look brutal.The great charisma and mannerisms but you will just come up with a reason because it is not true,so i will stop here,this will go nowhere,no one will change opinion His look is not that unique at all (I guess his hair is his most unique quality?) And my opinion is that he's top 3 in the company in in-ring ability, has a decent look, and is mediocre on the mic. I just don't see him becoming a huge deal if he can't improve on the mic in a big way. And it'd be nice if you attack the post, rather than the poster.
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Post by Red Impact on Jan 2, 2013 23:19:58 GMT -5
Del Rio is definitely higher on the card than Ziggler is now. He's a general fixture in ME matches and feuds with main eventers almost exclusively. Ziggler spent a healthy chunk of last year feuding with Ryder, Del Rio is above that.
Four inches is only really a big deal if they're having a staredown. To the average person, they're not going to notice a difference. I'd also disagree that he looks that unique, we know what he looks like because he's been at the top for so long, but if he was just coming out of FCW today? He'd be a smallish guy with short hair and arm tats, which is a pretty standard look. Not bad, but not memorable. He has developed a ring presence, I'll give you that, but I don't think it's anything that couldn't be developed by anyone on the roster with the amount of time they invested in Orton getting it.
As far as Bret goes, it's not a fair comparison because you're trying to compare a guy at the end of a Hall of Fame career with a guy who is just working to reach the main event. When Bret was elevated, even in his second run, he wasn't a great mic guy, not as good as Ziggler is now. He grew into it eventually, although if we're being honest, I'd say he was never fantastic, but good enough to not distract from how good he was in the ring. You're basically not giving Ziggler the chance to do that when you're comparing them at such different points in their career and saying he doesn't deserve to be elevated because of it.
Ziggler has shown plenty enough promise on the mic to get a shot in today's WWE. He's not huge, but he has the talent and he can deliver some pretty damn intense promos when actually given the chance.
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 2, 2013 23:28:26 GMT -5
Del Rio is definitely higher on the card than Ziggler is now. He's a general fixture in ME matches and feuds with main eventers almost exclusively. Ziggler spent a healthy chunk of last year feuding with Ryder, Del Rio is above that. Four inches is only really a big deal if they're having a staredown. To the average person, they're not going to notice a difference. I'd also disagree that he looks that unique, we know what he looks like because he's been at the top for so long, but if he was just coming out of FCW today? He'd be a smallish guy with short hair and arm tats, which is a pretty standard look. Not bad, but not memorable. He has developed a ring presence, I'll give you that, but I don't think it's anything that couldn't be developed by anyone on the roster with the amount of time they invested in Orton getting it. As far as Bret goes, it's not a fair comparison because you're trying to compare a guy at the end of a Hall of Fame career with a guy who is just working to reach the main event. When Bret was elevated, even in his second run, he wasn't a great mic guy, not as good as Ziggler is now. He grew into it eventually, although if we're being honest, I'd say he was never fantastic, but good enough to not distract from how good he was in the ring. You're basically not giving Ziggler the chance to do that when you're comparing them at such different points in their career and saying he doesn't deserve to be elevated because of it. Ziggler has shown plenty enough promise on the mic to get a shot in today's WWE. He's not huge, but he has the talent and he can deliver some pretty damn intense promos when actually given the chance. Fair enough on most of your points (except Orton, he's not a smallish wrestler to me at all). I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be elevated and given a shot in the main event--I'm just pointing out a possible flaw that might lead to him not really coming off as true main-event material and not being able to stick at the top.
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Jan 2, 2013 23:37:37 GMT -5
How the blazes can someone say the Miz has good promos but say Zigglers sound forced? I actually specifically said that Miz gives better promos, but they're not "good" either. I think Miz' promos sound better because when he sounds like a douchebag, he's a very believable douchebag. I love The Miz but man he was born to be a douchebag. He's not the same kind of douche as, say, Batista, but they are definitely from the same frat house level of douchiness. Now when Ziggler tries to sound like a showoff...it really doesn't sound like that's who he is. He doesn't sound like he really believes the stuff he says. He needs acting classes, 'is what I'm getting at. Or at least that's how it comes across to me but hell, what do I know?
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Post by Sparkybob on Jan 3, 2013 1:09:29 GMT -5
I think he is progressing and with the wwe giving him more chances at longer promos I think it's safe to say he will improve and get more comfortable with his character. By no means do I think he will be a top promo guy but I think he has potential to be solid on the mic.
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Post by nate5054 on Jan 3, 2013 2:55:19 GMT -5
He desperately needs a manager, though other than Heyman they really don't exist.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Jan 3, 2013 11:03:44 GMT -5
Ziggler's as good as he needs to be. he may not be on the level with Punk, Cena or Daniel Bryan, but nobody else in the company is either. he's better than Sheamus (though that's partially an issue with the material Sheamus gets) and he's definitely better than Del Rio or Randy Orton.
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