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Post by KofiMania on Jan 6, 2013 16:46:38 GMT -5
Megastars are almost always larger-than-life. The fact that you think you could see someone like Ziggler walking around anywhere is a negative against him becoming a megastar. Ziggler actually could talk like a megastar. He does that EXACT same fast talking rambling that The Rock does, except in a more cool headed and collected manner; he would rather straight-up call you a loser and a failure as a human being, rather than string random words together and insinuate that you're some sort of sexual deviant for laughs. SHOW. OFF. Not sure why you think that would make him look or sound like a megastar.
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Post by BiloxiParish on Jan 6, 2013 16:50:19 GMT -5
They have had guys at the top with worse mic skills like Chris Benoit or Goldberg or Bobby Lashley. I don't see it as a problem right now.
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 6, 2013 16:57:19 GMT -5
They have had guys at the top with worse mic skills like Chris Benoit or Goldberg or Bobby Lashley. I don't see it as a problem right now. The point of the thread is that I don't know if he has what it takes to take it to that next level. I agree how he is now he could be upper-midcard/occasional main event like Benoit and Lashley were. I question whether he could ever be a flagship/franchise-type upper echelon main eventer with his mic skills. Goldberg's in a different category anyway because of his look-with Goldberg's look/persona he didn't need mic skills to be considered an elite megastar-- just like Ryback won't need great mic skills to become a megastar.
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Arrow on Jan 6, 2013 17:12:56 GMT -5
I have to agree with this. People are so accustomed to what traditional promos sound like (Rock, Austin, etc) - which honestly are great for wrestling, but just sound tacky and lame anywhere else. Ziggler talks in a way that makes him sound like he could exist outside of wrestling, not just an over the top yelling and screaming madman. Megastars are almost always larger-than-life. The fact that you think you could see someone like Ziggler walking around anywhere is a negative against him becoming a megastar. I agree with this. The appeal of wrestling characters is that they're colorful, "supermen". They're fun because they stand out from the crowd. The most successful people in the past three decades (Hogan, Austin, Rock, Cena, Batista, HHH, 'Taker, HBK, Warrior, etc.) always had that quality.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2013 18:58:59 GMT -5
I have to agree with this. People are so accustomed to what traditional promos sound like (Rock, Austin, etc) - which honestly are great for wrestling, but just sound tacky and lame anywhere else. Ziggler talks in a way that makes him sound like he could exist outside of wrestling, not just an over the top yelling and screaming madman. Megastars are almost always larger-than-life. The fact that you think you could see someone like Ziggler walking around anywhere is a negative against him becoming a megastar. "walking around anywhere" isn't what I said. I meant his persona could exist in film and TV, not just wrestling. There's a difference between "larger than life" and being so over the top ridiculous that you'd only exist in wrestling and no where else.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2013 19:02:47 GMT -5
Megastars are almost always larger-than-life. The fact that you think you could see someone like Ziggler walking around anywhere is a negative against him becoming a megastar. I agree with this. The appeal of wrestling characters is that they're colorful, "supermen". They're fun because they stand out from the crowd. The most successful people in the past three decades (Hogan, Austin, Rock, Cena, Batista, HHH, 'Taker, HBK, Warrior, etc.) always had that quality. Those guys did, but the majority of those names broke out during the Attitude Era, a very different cultural time in the US. Also - as I said in another post, I meant that Ziggler's personality could exist in film and TV, not just walking around in the real world.
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Arrow
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Post by Arrow on Jan 6, 2013 19:42:46 GMT -5
I agree with this. The appeal of wrestling characters is that they're colorful, "supermen". They're fun because they stand out from the crowd. The most successful people in the past three decades (Hogan, Austin, Rock, Cena, Batista, HHH, 'Taker, HBK, Warrior, etc.) always had that quality. Those guys did, but the majority of those names broke out during the Attitude Era, a very different cultural time in the US. Only three of those names broke out during Attitude. The others were established either before or after, which just proves the point. WWE has been a national promotion for three decades, and throughout it all, it's always remained that the biggest and most successful stars are the ones who have that colorful, larger-than-life quality to them. Something that makes them come across like an actual superstar. If Ziggler's ever going to join that echelon, then he'll need to come across the same way, too. I like him fine, but if people do see him as just another guy, then that's a problem.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2013 22:07:40 GMT -5
Those guys did, but the majority of those names broke out during the Attitude Era, a very different cultural time in the US. Only three of those names broke out during Attitude. The others were established either before or after, which just proves the point. WWE has been a national promotion for three decades, and throughout it all, it's always remained that the biggest and most successful stars are the ones who have that colorful, larger-than-life quality to them. Something that makes them come across like an actual superstar. If Ziggler's ever going to join that echelon, then he'll need to come across the same way, too. I like him fine, but if people do see him as just another guy, then that's a problem. Attitude Era: HHH, Rock, Austin, Batista, HBK (as a legit singles star) Rock n WRestling: Hogan, Warrior, 'Taker (though honestly - taker's not really a promo guy) "Aggression"? Era - Cena First of Cena's not really a 'larger than life character' - so just bottle that one right there. The majority of those guys broke out during the Attitude Era, which only means if we're still going by the same criteria as we did 20+ years ago, then that's a problem.
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Post by BiloxiParish on Jan 6, 2013 22:11:22 GMT -5
They have had guys at the top with worse mic skills like Chris Benoit or Goldberg or Bobby Lashley. I don't see it as a problem right now. The point of the thread is that I don't know if he has what it takes to take it to that next level. I agree how he is now he could be upper-midcard/occasional main event like Benoit and Lashley were. I question whether he could ever be a flagship/franchise-type upper echelon main eventer with his mic skills. Goldberg's in a different category anyway because of his look-with Goldberg's look/persona he didn't need mic skills to be considered an elite megastar-- just like Ryback won't need great mic skills to become a megastar. I totally see where you coming from. I think WWE knows this as well, which why they are setting themselves up with new great talent like The Shield I can see all three of those guys being superstars in the next few years. Ziggler is no HBK by any means. I honestly would like to see him win more, just see if he can carry the weight he has to hold..
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MolotovMocktail
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Post by MolotovMocktail on Jan 6, 2013 22:14:10 GMT -5
Only three of those names broke out during Attitude. The others were established either before or after, which just proves the point. WWE has been a national promotion for three decades, and throughout it all, it's always remained that the biggest and most successful stars are the ones who have that colorful, larger-than-life quality to them. Something that makes them come across like an actual superstar. If Ziggler's ever going to join that echelon, then he'll need to come across the same way, too. I like him fine, but if people do see him as just another guy, then that's a problem. Attitude Era: HHH, Rock, Austin, Batista, HBK (as a legit singles star) Rock n WRestling: Hogan, Warrior, 'Taker (though honestly - taker's not really a promo guy) "Aggression"? Era - Cena First of Cena's not really a 'larger than life character' - so just bottle that one right there. The majority of those guys broke out during the Attitude Era, which only means if we're still going by the same criteria as we did 20+ years ago, then that's a problem. Batista broke out long after the Attitude Era, which IMO ended in 2002 with the establishment of the brand split and the name change from WWF to WWE. He debuted right as this shift was made, but became a superstar in 2005, at the same time, hell, the same event (Wrestlemania 21) as Cena.
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Arrow
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Post by Arrow on Jan 7, 2013 4:56:41 GMT -5
Attitude Era: HHH, Rock, Austin, Batista, HBK (as a legit singles star) Rock n WRestling: Hogan, Warrior, 'Taker (though honestly - taker's not really a promo guy) "Aggression"? Era - Cena First of Cena's not really a 'larger than life character' - so just bottle that one right there. The majority of those guys broke out during the Attitude Era, which only means if we're still going by the same criteria as we did 20+ years ago, then that's a problem. Batista became big at the same time as Cena, and both of them came up well after the Attitude Era is said to have ended. So I don't see how you separate Cena and Batista. HBK was established as a star well before Attitude (1995-1996). In fact, Michaels missed most of Attitude and only came back after it was over. This is all besides the point of course, which is that in any era, the "larger than life" guys have, historically, been more profitable than the alternative. Especially when you look at the most important demographics who are more interested in the "supermen" characters who stand out. It's no coincidence that professional wrestling only became a national business after WWF gave those wrestlers the focus. And Cena is larger than life. With the huge muscles, ridiculous strength, and colorful shirts it's very easy for people (especially the children that make up a lot of his fanbase) to see him as a superhero. Batista is the same. And of course the both of them are the two most profitable stars of "this" era of wrestling.
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Post by joebob27 on Jan 7, 2013 5:17:30 GMT -5
In order to get better at cutting promos, you have to.... cut promos. And then be lucky and hope the writers don't give you something stupid to work with.
He's better than he used to be, so you would assume he will improve as he does more promos. If they do end up pushing him.
There's a double standard where the "worker" guy has to speak on the level of a Chris Jericho or something, but if the big lug gets his words out without screwing up and punching himself in the head.... it's great!
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Post by Unaffiliated on Jan 7, 2013 6:41:58 GMT -5
There's a double standard where the "worker" guy has to speak on the level of a Chris Jericho or something, but if the big lug gets his words out without screwing up and punching himself in the head.... it's great! Agreed. And I thought most don't like the idea of someone getting pushed because of his "look"...
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 7, 2013 15:44:29 GMT -5
In order to get better at cutting promos, you have to.... cut promos. And then be lucky and hope the writers don't give you something stupid to work with. He's better than he used to be, so you would assume he will improve as he does more promos. If they do end up pushing him. There's a double standard where the "worker" guy has to speak on the level of a Chris Jericho or something, but if the big lug gets his words out without screwing up and punching himself in the head.... it's great! It's not a double standard, it's just the truth--if you have a better "look" (which does include being bigger-this is after all fighting-based entertainment) then you don't need as good of mic skills to become a megastar as you would if you were a guy with less of a look but with better in-ring skills. Lesnar and Goldberg didn't have to cut great promos because they came across as ass-kicking machines, much like Ryback now.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2013 15:47:51 GMT -5
Attitude Era: HHH, Rock, Austin, Batista, HBK (as a legit singles star) Rock n WRestling: Hogan, Warrior, 'Taker (though honestly - taker's not really a promo guy) "Aggression"? Era - Cena First of Cena's not really a 'larger than life character' - so just bottle that one right there. The majority of those guys broke out during the Attitude Era, which only means if we're still going by the same criteria as we did 20+ years ago, then that's a problem. Batista became big at the same time as Cena, and both of them came up well after the Attitude Era is said to have ended. So I don't see how you separate Cena and Batista. HBK was established as a star well before Attitude (1995-1996). In fact, Michaels missed most of Attitude and only came back after it was over. This is all besides the point of course, which is that in any era, the "larger than life" guys have, historically, been more profitable than the alternative. Especially when you look at the most important demographics who are more interested in the "supermen" characters who stand out. It's no coincidence that professional wrestling only became a national business after WWF gave those wrestlers the focus. And Cena is larger than life. With the huge muscles, ridiculous strength, and colorful shirts it's very easy for people (especially the children that make up a lot of his fanbase) to see him as a superhero. Batista is the same. And of course the both of them are the two most profitable stars of "this" era of wrestling. Well, I think it takes more than "large muscles and colorful shirts" to make someone a larger than life personality, I was referring more to his personality - promos and such. His promos are pretty "average dude" type promos if you ask me.
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 7, 2013 15:51:12 GMT -5
Batista became big at the same time as Cena, and both of them came up well after the Attitude Era is said to have ended. So I don't see how you separate Cena and Batista. HBK was established as a star well before Attitude (1995-1996). In fact, Michaels missed most of Attitude and only came back after it was over. This is all besides the point of course, which is that in any era, the "larger than life" guys have, historically, been more profitable than the alternative. Especially when you look at the most important demographics who are more interested in the "supermen" characters who stand out. It's no coincidence that professional wrestling only became a national business after WWF gave those wrestlers the focus. And Cena is larger than life. With the huge muscles, ridiculous strength, and colorful shirts it's very easy for people (especially the children that make up a lot of his fanbase) to see him as a superhero. Batista is the same. And of course the both of them are the two most profitable stars of "this" era of wrestling. Well, I think it takes more than "large muscles and colorful shirts" to make someone a larger than life personality, I was referring more to his personality - promos and such. His promos are pretty "average dude" type promos if you ask me. You don't think Cena's personality is larger than life? His whole look, charisma, talking and everything are over-the-top, he's basically the modern-day Hulk Hogan except instead of prayers and vitamins it's hustle, loyalty, and respect.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2013 16:03:00 GMT -5
Well, I think it takes more than "large muscles and colorful shirts" to make someone a larger than life personality, I was referring more to his personality - promos and such. His promos are pretty "average dude" type promos if you ask me. You don't think Cena's personality is larger than life? His whole look, charisma, talking and everything are over-the-top, he's basically the modern-day Hulk Hogan except instead of prayers and vitamins it's hustle, loyalty, and respect. Hogan's promos were ranting, barely coherent hot messes that killed in the 80s and were kind of embarrassing in the late 90's. Cena, seems like the kind of guy who thinks he's a big deal, talking smack about someone at a sports bar. But with more corny jokes. Now - when he was the rapper guy, that was larger than life, but now - he's just a dude.
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Arrow on Jan 7, 2013 16:14:16 GMT -5
Batista became big at the same time as Cena, and both of them came up well after the Attitude Era is said to have ended. So I don't see how you separate Cena and Batista. HBK was established as a star well before Attitude (1995-1996). In fact, Michaels missed most of Attitude and only came back after it was over. This is all besides the point of course, which is that in any era, the "larger than life" guys have, historically, been more profitable than the alternative. Especially when you look at the most important demographics who are more interested in the "supermen" characters who stand out. It's no coincidence that professional wrestling only became a national business after WWF gave those wrestlers the focus. And Cena is larger than life. With the huge muscles, ridiculous strength, and colorful shirts it's very easy for people (especially the children that make up a lot of his fanbase) to see him as a superhero. Batista is the same. And of course the both of them are the two most profitable stars of "this" era of wrestling. Well, I think it takes more than "large muscles and colorful shirts" to make someone a larger than life personality, I was referring more to his personality - promos and such. His promos are pretty "average dude" type promos if you ask me. Being a larger than life personality isn't limited to promos. It can be that, or it can be in how you look - for example, being larger and visibly stronger than the average person - and how you carry yourself. The point is to make the fans perceive you as a powerful superstar, and not someone that they could find on the street. And Cena does that very well.
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Post by KofiMania on Jan 7, 2013 16:16:29 GMT -5
Well, I think it takes more than "large muscles and colorful shirts" to make someone a larger than life personality, I was referring more to his personality - promos and such. His promos are pretty "average dude" type promos if you ask me. Being a larger than life personality isn't limited to promos. It can be that, or it can be in how you look - for example, being larger and visibly stronger than the average person - and how you carry yourself. The point is to make the fans perceive you as a powerful superstar, and not someone that they could find on the street. And Cena does that very well. Exactly. Lesnar is larger-than-life but no one would say his promos make him seem "larger-than-life." It's his whole look and the way he carries himself.
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Post by baerrtt on Jan 8, 2013 8:51:17 GMT -5
As he's been mentioned earlier Bret Hart in the WWF, imo, like Hardy and Rey got over in the first place because kids gravitated to his cartoonish superhero look. That eye catching pink and black costume, the glasses etc. Hart mightn't have been a character like...almost everybody else during that era but to most kids the guy was as much of a comic book hero as Warrior was in spite of a wrestling and promo style that was the entire opposite.
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