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Post by Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal on Oct 29, 2013 0:08:32 GMT -5
People are a LITTLE too over analytical of the booking tonight.
Facts:
It was a great match with great storytelling and nobody can deny that. Everyone was cheering for Sandow.
Most of the first reigns from MITB cash in winners are horrible. WWE took a chance and they had Sandow lose. I would rather see that development for a change than us all whine about Sandow's shitty first reign.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Oct 29, 2013 0:08:46 GMT -5
How can anyone think Sandow comes out of this looking "great" let alone "not buried". It looked like Cena had a chance at a count out victory but they couldn't even give Sandow that. He had to get him back in the ring to get a clean three count. It still would've been a miraculous win for Cena
Sandow is now and forever going to merely be a comedy jobber. It's a shame too because he deserves better than that.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
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Post by saintpat on Oct 29, 2013 0:15:34 GMT -5
How can anyone think Sandow comes out of this looking "great" let alone "not buried". It looked like Cena had a chance at a count out victory but they couldn't even give Sandow that. He had to get him back in the ring to get a clean three count. It still would've been a miraculous win for Cena Sandow is now and forever going to merely be a comedy jobber. It's a shame too because he deserves better than that. I can only speak for myself on how I can think what I think: 1) He teased not cashing in, then took matters into his own hand and attacked Cena and created his own vulnerable-champion situation by beating down his previously-inijured arm himself, rather than waiting for someone else to do it. Rarely done that way and it made him look strong character-wise IMO. 2) It was a great match. That makes a guy look good regardless of the circumstances. He looked like he belonged in a high-profile match. 3) Cena is Cena. As noted, he's beaten people when injured before. When he came back early from neck surgery and faced Jericho, Jericho did everything but rip his head off and he managed to win. That's what Cena does. I didn't think after that match, "well Jericho sucks." I thought, "That's what Cena does, and Jericho looked great." I feel the same tonight.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Oct 29, 2013 0:20:44 GMT -5
How can anyone think Sandow comes out of this looking "great" let alone "not buried". It looked like Cena had a chance at a count out victory but they couldn't even give Sandow that. He had to get him back in the ring to get a clean three count. It still would've been a miraculous win for Cena Sandow is now and forever going to merely be a comedy jobber. It's a shame too because he deserves better than that. Sandow was gonna come out of this looking "bad" no matter what happened. If he had won, either Cena would've obliterated him in the rematch and added an unnecessary reign to his title reign count or Cena would've gotten "distracted" by the Authority, Wyatts, Heyman Guys, whatever and thus "had more important matters to attend to" and making Sandow and the title look worthless. But at least Sandow looks better in losing spectacularly to Cena than he would if he just got a paper title run where WWE feeds him midcarders, or needlessly jobs out guys like Dolph or Miz in a half hearted attempt to make him look "important" while the Authority Angle would be overshadowing him on both shows.
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Post by Bootista on Oct 29, 2013 0:20:49 GMT -5
ooh I'm the first to comment on a name mistake!! Damien Snadow vs. Jorn Cena @ Survivor Series plz Vs. Rice Flair vs. The Rick in a fatal four way with FM Punk on Commentary and Bert Hart as the Special guest Referee
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
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Post by saintpat on Oct 29, 2013 0:24:05 GMT -5
ooh I'm the first to comment on a name mistake!! Damien Snadow vs. Jorn Cena @ Survivor Series plz Vs. Rice Flair vs. The Rick in a fatal four way with FM Punk on Commentary and Bert Hart as the Special guest Referee We've been over this a thousand times: Shane Michael is ALWAYS the spacial best revere. And do you want to know WHY? Because Bert screwed Bert.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Oct 29, 2013 0:26:48 GMT -5
How can anyone think Sandow comes out of this looking "great" let alone "not buried". It looked like Cena had a chance at a count out victory but they couldn't even give Sandow that. He had to get him back in the ring to get a clean three count. It still would've been a miraculous win for Cena Sandow is now and forever going to merely be a comedy jobber. It's a shame too because he deserves better than that. I can only speak for myself on how I can think what I think: 1) He teased not cashing in, then took matters into his own hand and attacked Cena and created his own vulnerable-champion situation by beating down his previously-inijured arm himself, rather than waiting for someone else to do it. Rarely done that way and it made him look strong character-wise IMO. 2) It was a great match. That makes a guy look good regardless of the circumstances. He looked like he belonged in a high-profile match. 3) Cena is Cena. As noted, he's beaten people when injured before. When he came back early from neck surgery and faced Jericho, Jericho did everything but rip his head off and he managed to win. That's what Cena does. I didn't think after that match, "well Jericho sucks." I thought, "That's what Cena does, and Jericho looked great." I feel the same tonight. 1)If by strong you mean stupid, sure. Why do you think it made him look strong character-wise? 2)I wasn't a great match. Sandow did a bunch of moves to Cena, Cena kicked out a bunch of times until he won clean. It was a three star match at best. Good, not great. You keep saying he looked good but not saying why you think that way. I gave several reasons why it made him look bad. 3)Jericho was already established. A legend on a part time schedule. Besides, it was stupid then too.
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Post by JTG Fan on Oct 29, 2013 0:32:23 GMT -5
It's kinda worth noting that Sandow officially has nothing anymore. He's not allowed to wear colors, he's not allow to wear his robe, he's not allowed to sing. And now his gloriously fancy briefcase is gone too. So now he's just a guy who lost a guaranteed title reign to a one armed Cena.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Oct 29, 2013 0:37:53 GMT -5
I can only speak for myself on how I can think what I think: 1) He teased not cashing in, then took matters into his own hand and attacked Cena and created his own vulnerable-champion situation by beating down his previously-inijured arm himself, rather than waiting for someone else to do it. Rarely done that way and it made him look strong character-wise IMO. 2) It was a great match. That makes a guy look good regardless of the circumstances. He looked like he belonged in a high-profile match. 3) Cena is Cena. As noted, he's beaten people when injured before. When he came back early from neck surgery and faced Jericho, Jericho did everything but rip his head off and he managed to win. That's what Cena does. I didn't think after that match, "well Jericho sucks." I thought, "That's what Cena does, and Jericho looked great." I feel the same tonight. 1)If by strong you mean stupid, sure. Why do you think it made him look strong character-wise? 2)I wasn't a great match. Sandow did a bunch of moves to Cena, Cena kicked out a bunch of times until he won clean. It was a three star match at best. Good, not great. You keep saying he looked good but not saying why you think that way. I gave several reasons why it made him look bad. 3)Jericho was already established. A legend on a part time schedule. Besides, it was stupid then too. It's like talking ot a wall, but OK: 1) Why did it make him look stupid to attack Cena? To me it makes the MitB holder look weaker to skulk around waiting for someone else to debilitate the champion than it does for him to take matters into his own hand and create the cash-in situation himself. You're holding a contract that gives you a shot at the champion at any time under any circumstances you choose. How is it stupid for you to attack the champion and beat him down to a more vulnerable state so you can then use that contract? What is stupid about that. He looks strong doing that at the moment he does it, it makes him someone who isn't the "ultimate opportunist" but a person who tries to create opportunities for himself. It's not passive. 2) I didn't put any stars on the match. I said it was a great match because it emotionally involved me -- and apparently others, because they were invested in the outcome. I didn't say it was match of the year. Please give me some examples where the loser of the match (a) doesn't 'do a bunch of moves' to the other guy and somewhere along the way (b) the guy who eventually wins doesn't kick out of them. I gotta see that match. As I said clealry, to me it made him look like he belonged at the main event level. He did some interesting things, he (kayfabe) made Cena (due to the injury he created) reach deep to employ tactics outside his normal moveset. Yes, he won with his finisher, but he also had to get creative and do other things. To me, that makes Sandow look good. 3) I guess everything is stupid. But Cena's "overcoming the odds/Superman" character is well established. That he did so again doesn't, to me, make Sandow look bad, it makes Cena look like Cena -- and I'm OK with that. By your reasoning, everyone who ever got no-sold by Hulk Hogan looked weak, too. (And, yes, I know Hulk Hogan is a legend -- but so, in today's WWE world, is Cena.)
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Post by MichaelMartini on Oct 29, 2013 0:39:12 GMT -5
How can anyone think Sandow comes out of this looking "great" let alone "not buried". It looked like Cena had a chance at a count out victory but they couldn't even give Sandow that. He had to get him back in the ring to get a clean three count. It still would've been a miraculous win for Cena Sandow is now and forever going to merely be a comedy jobber. It's a shame too because he deserves better than that. Sandow was gonna come out of this looking "bad" no matter what happened. If he had won, either Cena would've obliterated him in the rematch and added an unnecessary reign to his title reign count or Cena would've gotten "distracted" by the Authority, Wyatts, Heyman Guys, whatever and thus "had more important matters to attend to" and making Sandow and the title look worthless. But at least Sandow looks better in losing spectacularly to Cena than he would if he just got a paper title run where WWE feeds him midcarders, or needlessly jobs out guys like Dolph or Miz in a half hearted attempt to make him look "important" while the Authority Angle would be overshadowing him on both shows. All of those scenarios would make Sandow look better than what happened. They're also only a few of any number of possibilities. Why not involve Sandow in the authority storyline? Sandow was one of the first supporters of HHH when he commended him for firing Rhodes. Sandow in a King Booker type run is exactly what I want. Feuds with Miz, Dolph and Cody sound good to me. No one has given the reasons why losing spectacularly is good for him. WWE needs new, credible heels. Who is there? It's been Orton and Del Rio all year.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Oct 29, 2013 0:46:00 GMT -5
Sandow was gonna come out of this looking "bad" no matter what happened. If he had won, either Cena would've obliterated him in the rematch and added an unnecessary reign to his title reign count or Cena would've gotten "distracted" by the Authority, Wyatts, Heyman Guys, whatever and thus "had more important matters to attend to" and making Sandow and the title look worthless. But at least Sandow looks better in losing spectacularly to Cena than he would if he just got a paper title run where WWE feeds him midcarders, or needlessly jobs out guys like Dolph or Miz in a half hearted attempt to make him look "important" while the Authority Angle would be overshadowing him on both shows. All of those scenarios would make Sandow look better than what happened. They're also only a few of any number of possibilities. Why not involve Sandow in the authority storyline? Sandow was one of the first supporters of HHH when he commended him for firing Rhodes. Sandow in a King Booker type run is exactly what I want. Feuds with Miz, Dolph and Cody sound good to me. No one has given the reasons why losing spectacularly is good for him. WWE needs new, credible heels. Who is there? It's been Orton and Del Rio all year. WWE does need new credible heels, and Sandow CAN still be one of those. But what WWE doesn't need is to hand out world title reigns like candy and give one to every half way talented person. Once Sandow lost the title, we'd all be making comments about how he's "fallen hard" and "Remember when Damien Sandow was a thing?" Yeah, we're doing that now, but it would've been worse had he actually one the title. It just makes people look bad when they have to step away from the title picture to do other things, and it indirectly makes the guys who haven't won a World Title yet look like even bigger scrubs.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
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Post by saintpat on Oct 29, 2013 0:46:17 GMT -5
Sandow was gonna come out of this looking "bad" no matter what happened. If he had won, either Cena would've obliterated him in the rematch and added an unnecessary reign to his title reign count or Cena would've gotten "distracted" by the Authority, Wyatts, Heyman Guys, whatever and thus "had more important matters to attend to" and making Sandow and the title look worthless. But at least Sandow looks better in losing spectacularly to Cena than he would if he just got a paper title run where WWE feeds him midcarders, or needlessly jobs out guys like Dolph or Miz in a half hearted attempt to make him look "important" while the Authority Angle would be overshadowing him on both shows. All of those scenarios would make Sandow look better than what happened. They're also only a few of any number of possibilities. Why not involve Sandow in the authority storyline? Sandow was one of the first supporters of HHH when he commended him for firing Rhodes. Sandow in a King Booker type run is exactly what I want. Feuds with Miz, Dolph and Cody sound good to me. No one has given the reasons why losing spectacularly is good for him. WWE needs new, credible heels. Who is there? It's been Orton and Del Rio all year. Wyatts are new and credible. The Shield is relatively knew and certainly credible. This doesn't necessarily doom Sandow. I think he looks more serious now than he ever has.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Oct 29, 2013 0:47:14 GMT -5
It's kinda worth noting that Sandow officially has nothing anymore. He's not allowed to wear colors, he's not allow to wear his robe, he's not allowed to sing. And now his gloriously fancy briefcase is gone too. So now he's just a guy who lost a guaranteed title reign to a one armed Cena. The Del Rio effect. Once they've stripped away every aspect of your character that was unique and original, you have arrived!
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Malcolm
Grimlock
Wanted something done about the color of his ring.
May contain ADHD
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Post by Malcolm on Oct 29, 2013 0:49:39 GMT -5
It's kinda worth noting that Sandow officially has nothing anymore. He's not allowed to wear colors, he's not allow to wear his robe, he's not allowed to sing. And now his gloriously fancy briefcase is gone too. So now he's just a guy who lost a guaranteed title reign to a one armed Cena. The Del Rio effect. Once they've stripped away every aspect of your character that was unique and original, you have arrived! Freaky. I sort of called this a while ago. First thing to go is the colors. Second thing to go will be the personality.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Oct 29, 2013 0:56:19 GMT -5
1)If by strong you mean stupid, sure. Why do you think it made him look strong character-wise? 2)I wasn't a great match. Sandow did a bunch of moves to Cena, Cena kicked out a bunch of times until he won clean. It was a three star match at best. Good, not great. You keep saying he looked good but not saying why you think that way. I gave several reasons why it made him look bad. 3)Jericho was already established. A legend on a part time schedule. Besides, it was stupid then too. It's like talking ot a wall, but OK: 1) Why did it make him look stupid to attack Cena? To me it makes the MitB holder look weaker to skulk around waiting for someone else to debilitate the champion than it does for him to take matters into his own hand and create the cash-in situation himself. You're holding a contract that gives you a shot at the champion at any time under any circumstances you choose. How is it stupid for you to attack the champion and beat him down to a more vulnerable state so you can then use that contract? What is stupid about that. He looks strong doing that at the moment he does it, it makes him someone who isn't the "ultimate opportunist" but a person who tries to create opportunities for himself. It's not passive. 2) I didn't put any stars on the match. I said it was a great match because it emotionally involved me -- and apparently others, because they were invested in the outcome. I didn't say it was match of the year. Please give me some examples where the loser of the match (a) doesn't 'do a bunch of moves' to the other guy and somewhere along the way (b) the guy who eventually wins doesn't kick out of them. I gotta see that match. As I said clealry, to me it made him look like he belonged at the main event level. He did some interesting things, he (kayfabe) made Cena (due to the injury he created) reach deep to employ tactics outside his normal moveset. Yes, he won with his finisher, but he also had to get creative and do other things. To me, that makes Sandow look good. 3) I guess everything is stupid. But Cena's "overcoming the odds/Superman" character is well established. That he did so again doesn't, to me, make Sandow look bad, it makes Cena look like Cena -- and I'm OK with that. By your reasoning, everyone who ever got no-sold by Hulk Hogan looked weak, too. (And, yes, I know Hulk Hogan is a legend -- but so, in today's WWE world, is Cena.) 1)It made him look stupid because he lost the element of surprise for one thing. Remember, Cena went for him first. Also, his plan didn't work. A non-stupid plan would've been one that was successful. Do I really need to explain how logic works to you? 2)You're twisting my words about the kickouts into something I didn't say. I'm not the wall. I think you might have comprehension problems. As for the last part, wow, he made Cena do different things. Like what? I saw the same moves, except for one new one, that might have even been a botch. That's your only reason for thinking it made him look good: Sandow managed to make a one armed, one legged Cena do a new move in a losing effort. Wow, that's some push. 3)Hulk Hogan did make some guys look bad sometimes, but even he would have to resort to cheating or something to get a win. The Hulk up was his gimmick and I didn't like it back then, even people that did, were getting tired of it in the early nineties after a decade of it, kinda like where Cena is now. That kind of booking worked for the 80s. The over the top Superman stuff is as dated as the Los Matadores gimmick.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Oct 29, 2013 1:06:56 GMT -5
I didn't watch Raw, so I don't know what happened, but if he literally did beat down Cena's injured arm for several minutes, then for Cena to still somehow win despite not using one arm...that's weird.
That's not even underselling Sandow as much as it's overselling Cena. I mean does he really need THAT at this level? Like...I mean, is this the way you want to convince people that Sandow had a shot against him?
It almost makes me glad they have a blood policy, because I could outright see them sell the idea of Cena losing like a quarter of the blood in his body and still having the "fighting spirit" to carry on. I mean this is the company that at one point said Cena refused medical attention for a ruptured spleen and was "run over" by JBL. Why not a cheap CGI effect where Cena is missing his head? Surely someone could beat a headless Cena!!
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
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Post by saintpat on Oct 29, 2013 1:09:17 GMT -5
It's like talking ot a wall, but OK: 1) Why did it make him look stupid to attack Cena? To me it makes the MitB holder look weaker to skulk around waiting for someone else to debilitate the champion than it does for him to take matters into his own hand and create the cash-in situation himself. You're holding a contract that gives you a shot at the champion at any time under any circumstances you choose. How is it stupid for you to attack the champion and beat him down to a more vulnerable state so you can then use that contract? What is stupid about that. He looks strong doing that at the moment he does it, it makes him someone who isn't the "ultimate opportunist" but a person who tries to create opportunities for himself. It's not passive. 2) I didn't put any stars on the match. I said it was a great match because it emotionally involved me -- and apparently others, because they were invested in the outcome. I didn't say it was match of the year. Please give me some examples where the loser of the match (a) doesn't 'do a bunch of moves' to the other guy and somewhere along the way (b) the guy who eventually wins doesn't kick out of them. I gotta see that match. As I said clealry, to me it made him look like he belonged at the main event level. He did some interesting things, he (kayfabe) made Cena (due to the injury he created) reach deep to employ tactics outside his normal moveset. Yes, he won with his finisher, but he also had to get creative and do other things. To me, that makes Sandow look good. 3) I guess everything is stupid. But Cena's "overcoming the odds/Superman" character is well established. That he did so again doesn't, to me, make Sandow look bad, it makes Cena look like Cena -- and I'm OK with that. By your reasoning, everyone who ever got no-sold by Hulk Hogan looked weak, too. (And, yes, I know Hulk Hogan is a legend -- but so, in today's WWE world, is Cena.) 1)It made him look stupid because he lost the element of surprise for one thing. Remember, Cena went for him first. Also, his plan didn't work. A non-stupid plan would've been one that was successful. Do I really need to explain how logic works to you? 2)You're twisting my words about the kickouts into something I didn't say. I'm not the wall. I think you might have comprehension problems. As for the last part, wow, he made Cena do different things. Like what? I saw the same moves, except for one new one, that might have even been a botch. That's your only reason for thinking it made him look good: Sandow managed to make a one armed, one legged Cena do a new move in a losing effort. Wow, that's some push. 3)Hulk Hogan did make some guys look bad sometimes, but even he would have to resort to cheating or something to get a win. The Hulk up was his gimmick and I didn't like it back then, even people that did, were getting tired of it in the early nineties after a decade of it, kinda like where Cena is now. That kind of booking worked for the 80s. The over the top Superman stuff is as dated as the Los Matadores gimmick. Puerto RIcan bullfighters is a COMPLETELY new gimmick.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Oct 29, 2013 1:42:58 GMT -5
1)It made him look stupid because he lost the element of surprise for one thing. Remember, Cena went for him first. Also, his plan didn't work. A non-stupid plan would've been one that was successful. Do I really need to explain how logic works to you? 2)You're twisting my words about the kickouts into something I didn't say. I'm not the wall. I think you might have comprehension problems. As for the last part, wow, he made Cena do different things. Like what? I saw the same moves, except for one new one, that might have even been a botch. That's your only reason for thinking it made him look good: Sandow managed to make a one armed, one legged Cena do a new move in a losing effort. Wow, that's some push. 3)Hulk Hogan did make some guys look bad sometimes, but even he would have to resort to cheating or something to get a win. The Hulk up was his gimmick and I didn't like it back then, even people that did, were getting tired of it in the early nineties after a decade of it, kinda like where Cena is now. That kind of booking worked for the 80s. The over the top Superman stuff is as dated as the Los Matadores gimmick. Puerto RIcan bullfighters is a COMPLETELY new gimmick. I don't know if you're being serious but they turned Tito Santana into El Matador and it pretty much killed his career. That was 20 years ago.
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Post by misconduct was wrong on Oct 29, 2013 1:57:26 GMT -5
Sandow can talk. As long as he's allowed to do so, he'll be fine. Guys stepping up and performing well in a big time match usually have good things happen to them afterwards. I think this is the beginning of Sandow's chance to prove he belongs.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Oct 29, 2013 2:19:53 GMT -5
Sandow can talk. As long as he's allowed to do so, he'll be fine. Guys stepping up and performing well in a big time match usually have good things happen to them afterwards. I think this is the beginning of Sandow's chance to prove he belongs. This is the only reason why I don't care about Sandow losing, although it would have been just as effective to not have a beatdown, nor have Cena break up the count out victory he would have gotten. Sandow losing in quick fashion would have been just fine. The problem is, they're going to try to "toughen" him up so he looks like a main eventer. That is stupid. It's color by numbers crap and it's the most pathetic way to write a story. Have they not learned their lesson with Del Rio? Again like you mentioned, Sandow's biggest attribute is his mouth. He could be an effective standby when they need someone to step in there and take over an angle. He wouldn't be a main eventer (not everyone needs to be), but he'd certainly be a guy who would help everyone around him and most likely flourish best if not given a generic push like Dolph Ziggler has gotten. The shit he was doing with Sheamus was great. He kept getting his ass kicked, yet he wasn't dropping down the card, nor was he showing any signs of being a loser. But if they take all his character away, give him a push and suddenly drop him...he'll be a loser. I'd rather have a directionless character with personality, as opposed to a directionless character that is a super aggressive. The former has much more versatility in what they can do.
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