clifford
King Koopa
Shingo Takagi stan
Posts: 10,692
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Post by clifford on Jul 12, 2018 18:18:36 GMT -5
You know I'm watching the December '97 Raw with Owen coming through the crowd to confront Vince in the ring. God damn what a promo, and the crowd was so into him.
They should have followed up better, Owen would've been in the main event long before he had to do the Blue Blazer again.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 12, 2018 18:29:19 GMT -5
Lady clearly has a self-esteem issues when it comes to wrestling as a career as if it's something to be ashamed of since she has to bring it up for millionth time over and over again. Maybe she would have preferred Owen to be a doctor or a lawyer but there is nothing she can do about it but accept it. Unfortunately we live in a world where being a good person is a perk since we have horrendous amounts of horrible people on this planet but when you rise above it and accept that being a good person is only a foundation for greater things then we come to conclusion Owen has achieved so much more than being a wonderful human being. For me you can say I'm a good human being that happens to wrestle as a hobby but to say that for Owen is an insult cause Owen was THE WHOLE GOD DAMN WRESTLING. That's like saying Bolt is a good man who just happens to sprint or Tesla was a great human being who just happened to "do science". That's twisting the truth real hard and minimizing the accomplishments. I'm against Bret saying things like this in public, I can understand that he ran out of options to reason with Martha but still it's not something you do no matter what as it will just distance you even further from Owen's kids. And poor lady Martha really needs to face the big issues, accept it, be better while staring at the elephant in the room and move on in peace instead of spending the rest of her life with head turned around pretending like some things have never happened. No one is denying that WWE used to be/is a horrible place to be in and they are 100% at fault when it comes to Owen's death. On contrary things that Owen has managed to achieved in such ill environment is something that lets you rise up over exploit concerns, self esteem crisis and so on. I truly wish her and Bret a happy conclusion and reconciliation no matter how it ends. Well, no, to her first and foremost he was her husband. ANY job would be secondary to that in her view, so chalking it up to self esteem issues is sort of odd. Clearly she didn't like wrestling to any degree, and is especially pained by it now because again--literally killed her husband--but I can't fault her for any of that. In fact, reading her statement brought me more to her side. She doesn't want WWE to profit another dime off her husband that she can help it. Hard to argue that cuz clearly at the VERY LEAST an Owen induction would be part of promotional packages etc to sell people on the Network etc. |
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Jul 12, 2018 18:33:49 GMT -5
It's not ours to say what his widow and children should do about his legacy. There is nothing preventing Mark Henry and others from renting an auditorium and invite a bunch of wrestlers to tell Owen Hart stories without WWE using it to sell network subscriptions and Hall of Fame tickets. She has never turned her back in wrestling as much as she has the WWE, and that is her perogative, she owes nothing to that company, and as much as we all use WWE as a conduent for pro wrestling, if your spouse died working for a company, I'd don't think you would be so inclined to let it go so they could make a buck. Look if it was up to her, Owen would be removed totally from all WWE programming. She's hurting, i understand that, it must be terrible for her. But I think we do know this is definitely not what Owen himself would have wanted. |
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jul 12, 2018 19:46:11 GMT -5
It's not ours to say what his widow and children should do about his legacy. There is nothing preventing Mark Henry and others from renting an auditorium and invite a bunch of wrestlers to tell Owen Hart stories without WWE using it to sell network subscriptions and Hall of Fame tickets. She has never turned her back in wrestling as much as she has the WWE, and that is her perogative, she owes nothing to that company, and as much as we all use WWE as a conduent for pro wrestling, if your spouse died working for a company, I'd don't think you would be so inclined to let it go so they could make a buck. Look if it was up to her, Owen would be removed totally from all WWE programming. She's hurting, i understand that, it must be terrible for her. But I think we do know this is definitely not what Owen himself would have wanted. How do we definitely know? Hell, I like the company I work for, but if I die at work, and any small part of it is there fault, I don't want them to make some money off celebrating my life. |
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Jul 12, 2018 20:27:21 GMT -5
Look if it was up to her, Owen would be removed totally from all WWE programming. She's hurting, i understand that, it must be terrible for her. But I think we do know this is definitely not what Owen himself would have wanted. How do we definitely know? Hell, I like the company I work for, but if I die at work, and any small part of it is there fault, I don't want them to make some money off celebrating my life. Any small part? That could be anything. I understand your point. How about dvds with all proceeds going to family? That way you're still providing for them after death. Or charity? I suppose it's irrelevant as you can still get individual matches and put your own dvd together i suppose |
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Jul 12, 2018 20:30:59 GMT -5
It's not ours to say what his widow and children should do about his legacy. There is nothing preventing Mark Henry and others from renting an auditorium and invite a bunch of wrestlers to tell Owen Hart stories without WWE using it to sell network subscriptions and Hall of Fame tickets. She has never turned her back in wrestling as much as she has the WWE, and that is her perogative, she owes nothing to that company, and as much as we all use WWE as a conduent for pro wrestling, if your spouse died working for a company, I'd don't think you would be so inclined to let it go so they could make a buck. Look if it was up to her, Owen would be removed totally from all WWE programming. She's hurting, i understand that, it must be terrible for her. But I think we do know this is definitely not what Owen himself would have wanted. We don't know a damn thing. |
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Jul 12, 2018 20:36:36 GMT -5
Look if it was up to her, Owen would be removed totally from all WWE programming. She's hurting, i understand that, it must be terrible for her. But I think we do know this is definitely not what Owen himself would have wanted. We don't know a damn thing. Hyperbole. I doubt owen would be happy for them to make millions, but as a wrestler who knew the business, i don't think he'd be happy being benoited either. Like if Arnold was doing a stunt for James Cameron in T5 that went wrong, i doubt he'd ask for T2 to be put away forever. But maybe you're right, maybe as long as the WWE doesn't produce any new documents, we can still enjoy his various appearances and interviews elsewhere. Surely though you can understand to fully comply with her wishes by totally erasing Owen is not the right move? |
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jul 12, 2018 21:16:14 GMT -5
We don't know a damn thing. Hyperbole. I doubt owen would be happy for them to make millions, but as a wrestler who knew the business, i don't think he'd be happy being benoited either. Like if Arnold was doing a stunt for James Cameron in T5 that went wrong, i doubt he'd ask for T2 to be put away forever. But maybe you're right, maybe as long as the WWE doesn't produce any new documents, we can still enjoy his various appearances and interviews elsewhere. Surely though you can understand to fully comply with her wishes by totally erasing Owen is not the right move? You did not know Owen. I did not know Owen. We are both literally disqualified from saying things like "Well, I doubt he'd be happy if...". We didn't know him. Martha did, likely better than anyone. Her opinion on the matter takes precedence, whether we agree with it or not. |
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Post by edgestar on Jul 12, 2018 21:23:49 GMT -5
This is why I understand where both sides are coming from. The only thing I know, for myself, of any of the Hart family, is when I met Bret, last year, and any time I've seen Nattie live.
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Shark
Hank Scorpio
The world's only Samurai Ninja Pirate
Posts: 7,045 
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Post by Shark on Jul 12, 2018 21:47:12 GMT -5
It's kind of buried in the comments, but there's a post by Nattie in there, so good to know that Oje's on good terms with at least some of the family, even if Martha isn't. Nattie has said almost all the next generation of the Harts get along in some fashion, mainly because of all the turmoil they've been through as a family. Even Teddy. "What can I say about Teddy," she says. "He marches to his own drummer." My family is very much the same way. My sister, myself and our cousins don't let the drama all our parents and their parents put themselves through define how our relationships are. |
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Post by The Trashman on Jul 12, 2018 23:05:20 GMT -5
I'm not sure why anyone thinks WWE is trying to make money off of Owen. Putting him in the HOF or WWE 2K19 isn't going to move the needle for them, but I bet the foundation would get more notoriety and certainly more donations if she would let the WWE team promote it like Connors Cure.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jul 12, 2018 23:21:30 GMT -5
I'm not sure why anyone thinks WWE is trying to make money off of Owen. Putting him in the HOF or WWE 2K19 isn't going to move the needle for them, but I bet the foundation would get more notoriety and certainly more donations if she would let the WWE team promote it like Connors Cure. Martha's stance is that WWE should not profit from Owen's name and likeness in any way, no matter how small. No exceptions. Also, given the way she feels, I don't think it would be a huge leap of logic to believe that she would consider any money made for the Foundation with WWE's help blood money. |
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Post by Red Impact on Jul 12, 2018 23:41:58 GMT -5
Most everyone who cares lost someone they liked to watch on TV. The other Harts lost family members. She lost the person she had chosen to spend the rest of her life with. Her opinion outweighs anyone else's. You don't choose your family, you choose your spouse. That's why the first next of kin is the spouse, not the blood relatives. She knew more about him than we ever well, she knew him far better than anyone else. She knew more intimately what he felt about his career and family than we do. We have zero basis whatsoever for making claims about what would give closure or what would be good for her grown, adult kids. If they want to delve into their dad's wrestling career (and they probably have at this point), they're completely able to do so themselves. To be honest, I suspect that most, if not all wrestling fans saying that she should let the WWE do this or that with him for the closure have no real altruistic intent at all, they just want to see Owen matches and such released by WWE. I don't have any problem with people wanting an Owen DVD or something with his matches on, but I have a hard time believing random wrestling fans have a better clue about what would bring closure than the guy's spouse. And no, if I were in her shoes, I wouldn't given WWE an inch of his legacy either. It was a dumb stunt that went wrong and led to the death of the father of her children. She was left a single mother and widow because of their stunt that they had Owen do. Why in the world would anyone argue that WWE should benefit, no matter how tangentially, from that performer after their stupid stunt led directly to his death? Should an amusement park be allowed to have a "tribute day" for a kid who died on a faulty ride over the family's protests? Hell, no. If the family doesn't approve, that's the end of it. I'm not sure why anyone thinks WWE is trying to make money off of Owen. Putting him in the HOF or WWE 2K19 isn't going to move the needle for them, but I bet the foundation would get more notoriety and certainly more donations if she would let the WWE team promote it like Connors Cure. For starters, WWE didn't cause Connor's death, so it's not exactly an apt comparison. Secondly, both those things would absolutely be WWE trying to capitalize off of Owen. WWE 2k19 is literally a for profit product, so yes, putting him in the game is making money off of him. As far as the HOF goes, it's largely a promotional tool for adding to the prestige of Wrestlemania, so yes, they would be making money off of him being there too. No matter how little you think it'd move the needle, using someone's image in a promotional or actual product is, by definition, attempting to profit off of them. |
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Post by Ganon83 on Jul 13, 2018 3:47:02 GMT -5
Also they would milk promoting that charity for all of the good PR they can get out of it
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Post by KobashiChop on Jul 13, 2018 3:51:21 GMT -5
I feel for Bret. His brother was a famous pro wrestler like him and he wants that legacy honoured on a worldwide platform.
However, his wife rightfully should not allow them to profit off his name at all. They killed him. She will never and should never lose sight of that.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Jul 13, 2018 4:42:24 GMT -5
Most everyone who cares lost someone they liked to watch on TV. The other Harts lost family members. She lost the person she had chosen to spend the rest of her life with. Her opinion outweighs anyone else's. You don't choose your family, you choose your spouse. That's why the first next of kin is the spouse, not the blood relatives. She knew more about him than we ever well, she knew him far better than anyone else. She knew more intimately what he felt about his career and family than we do. We have zero basis whatsoever for making claims about what would give closure or what would be good for her grown, adult kids. If they want to delve into their dad's wrestling career (and they probably have at this point), they're completely able to do so themselves. To be honest, I suspect that most, if not all wrestling fans saying that she should let the WWE do this or that with him for the closure have no real altruistic intent at all, they just want to see Owen matches and such released by WWE. I don't have any problem with people wanting an Owen DVD or something with his matches on, but I have a hard time believing random wrestling fans have a better clue about what would bring closure than the guy's spouse. And no, if I were in her shoes, I wouldn't given WWE an inch of his legacy either. It was a dumb stunt that went wrong and led to the death of the father of her children. She was left a single mother and widow because of their stunt that they had Owen do. Why in the world would anyone argue that WWE should benefit, no matter how tangentially, from that performer after their stupid stunt led directly to his death? Should an amusement park be allowed to have a "tribute day" for a kid who died on a faulty ride over the family's protests? Hell, no. If the family doesn't approve, that's the end of it. I'm not sure why anyone thinks WWE is trying to make money off of Owen. Putting him in the HOF or WWE 2K19 isn't going to move the needle for them, but I bet the foundation would get more notoriety and certainly more donations if she would let the WWE team promote it like Connors Cure. For starters, WWE didn't cause Connor's death, so it's not exactly an apt comparison. Secondly, both those things would absolutely be WWE trying to capitalize off of Owen. WWE 2k19 is literally a for profit product, so yes, putting him in the game is making money off of him. As far as the HOF goes, it's largely a promotional tool for adding to the prestige of Wrestlemania, so yes, they would be making money off of him being there too. No matter how little you think it'd move the needle, using someone's image in a promotional or actual product is, by definition, attempting to profit off of them. The problem is that it deprives the other wrestlers who put in work in their matches with Owen also. She doesn't even want to acknowledge Owens WWE career at all. If she wanted to publish the footage herself, or to only allow non profit dvds that's a different issue. I think Bret is right, she is limiting Owens legacy. They can't even mention him on tv at all. If the WWE was planning a self destruction of Owen dvd or a Owen exploitation angle, then that's obvious then. ""Why in the world would anyone argue that WWE should benefit, no matter how tangentially, from that performer after their stupid stunt led directly to his death?"" You could argue that they already do a little by including Owen footage in ppv/raw matches he performed in. Owen right now is like Benoit practically. Never mentioned, never referred to, banished from all except his barebone appearance in matches. But eh.....I guess I've given my point across enough, about hate and unforgiveness etc, and you've clearly stated yours, that the wishes of his spouse triumph anything when it comes to Owen. Maybe I'm weak, and not as strong as Martha, who didn't let the WWE walk all over her, and who knows? We might have had comments like "Owens not in heaven" from the WWE, or his ashes in a urn dropped by CM Punk. |
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Post by The Barber on Jul 13, 2018 5:09:24 GMT -5
But eh.....I guess I've given my point across enough, about hate and unforgiveness etc, and you've clearly stated yours, that the wishes of his spouse triumph anything when it comes to Owen. Maybe I'm weak, and not as strong as Martha, who didn't let the WWE walk all over her, and who knows? We might have had comments like "Owens not in heaven" from the WWE, or his ashes in a urn dropped by CM Punk. I'm afraid you are right. You just know that the WWE would do some stupid angle with it.
BTW, I'm shocked by the responses here. I remember some time ago that most IWC fans were giving Martha hell for not inducting Owen in the WWE Hall Of Work. I am glad to see that most of you guys are coming to my side of the fence and being OK with Martha's side of things. I cannot blame her one iota for everything she has done.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jul 13, 2018 5:16:12 GMT -5
Most everyone who cares lost someone they liked to watch on TV. The other Harts lost family members. She lost the person she had chosen to spend the rest of her life with. Her opinion outweighs anyone else's. You don't choose your family, you choose your spouse. That's why the first next of kin is the spouse, not the blood relatives. She knew more about him than we ever well, she knew him far better than anyone else. She knew more intimately what he felt about his career and family than we do. We have zero basis whatsoever for making claims about what would give closure or what would be good for her grown, adult kids. If they want to delve into their dad's wrestling career (and they probably have at this point), they're completely able to do so themselves. To be honest, I suspect that most, if not all wrestling fans saying that she should let the WWE do this or that with him for the closure have no real altruistic intent at all, they just want to see Owen matches and such released by WWE. I don't have any problem with people wanting an Owen DVD or something with his matches on, but I have a hard time believing random wrestling fans have a better clue about what would bring closure than the guy's spouse. And no, if I were in her shoes, I wouldn't given WWE an inch of his legacy either. It was a dumb stunt that went wrong and led to the death of the father of her children. She was left a single mother and widow because of their stunt that they had Owen do. Why in the world would anyone argue that WWE should benefit, no matter how tangentially, from that performer after their stupid stunt led directly to his death? Should an amusement park be allowed to have a "tribute day" for a kid who died on a faulty ride over the family's protests? Hell, no. If the family doesn't approve, that's the end of it. For starters, WWE didn't cause Connor's death, so it's not exactly an apt comparison. Secondly, both those things would absolutely be WWE trying to capitalize off of Owen. WWE 2k19 is literally a for profit product, so yes, putting him in the game is making money off of him. As far as the HOF goes, it's largely a promotional tool for adding to the prestige of Wrestlemania, so yes, they would be making money off of him being there too. No matter how little you think it'd move the needle, using someone's image in a promotional or actual product is, by definition, attempting to profit off of them. The problem is that it deprives the other wrestlers who put in work in their matches with Owen also. She doesn't even want to acknowledge Owens WWE career at all. If she wanted to publish the footage herself, or to only allow non profit dvds that's a different issue. I think Bret is right, she is limiting Owens legacy. They can't even mention him on tv at all. If the WWE was planning a self destruction of Owen dvd or a Owen exploitation angle, then that's obvious then. ""Why in the world would anyone argue that WWE should benefit, no matter how tangentially, from that performer after their stupid stunt led directly to his death?"" You could argue that they already do a little by including Owen footage in ppv/raw matches he performed in. Owen right now is like Benoit practically. Never mentioned, never referred to, banished from all except his barebone appearance in matches. But eh.....I guess I've given my point across enough, about hate and unforgiveness etc, and you've clearly stated yours, that the wishes of his spouse triumph anything when it comes to Owen. Maybe I'm weak, and not as strong as Martha, who didn't let the WWE walk all over her, and who knows? We might have had comments like "Owens not in heaven" from the WWE, or his ashes in a urn dropped by CM Punk. at the end of the day, though, they f***ing KILLED her husband and that trumps any other wrestler going "oh muh legacy!" as if that matters more than the wishes of a woman whose husband was borderline murdered in a stupid stunt. |
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Post by thetower52 on Jul 13, 2018 7:50:23 GMT -5
Y’all know they put out a Owen blu Ray right?
Though I’m pretty sure Martha had a shit fit about it
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cjh
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,899
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Post by cjh on Jul 13, 2018 7:57:38 GMT -5
Y’all know they put out a Owen blu Ray right? Though I’m pretty sure Martha had a shit fit about it Yeah, she wasn't happy about it, but WWE had a court rule in their favor several years earlier when it came to them using footage of Owen. |
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