Bret Hart accuses late brother's widow of erasing wrestling

[SAJ Forth]

A tough situation here. I ultimately side with Bret, but I understand Martha's thought's on this as well.

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

Jul 14, 2018 23:02:59 GMT -5 @jdogindy said:

I don't know what it says about my character whenever there's a discussion about Martha & I instinctively choose the side opposing her.

well, trying not to sound mean or angry, it does smack pretty awfully of entitlement. especially so when you consider the circumstances. it's kinda like getting mad about WWE not talking abut or using footage of Chris Benoit, when you really think of it.

[Chris Hammers]

While I get why she would want to distance herself from the company that ultimately killed her husband. I've not really ever understood why those decisions would end up being up to her? At least after it happened, I feel like that sort of "use of name/face/matches for merch" should of went to his parents when they were alive, no? I guess it just seems odd to me that a whole family of blood relatives want something, but seemingly have no say in the matter.

Common courtesy I suppose, on WWE's part.

[thecrusherwi]

Jul 13, 2018 9:59:14 GMT -5 Tiger Millionaire said:

I am going to try to be delicate because I don't want to come across as heartless(no pun intended), but if you don't think that the main goal of Connors Cure is a capitalistic one, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. That doesn't mean that they don't care, or they see everything as a way to make money, but to not think that the WWE doesn't use it's philanthropy to help sell itself to sponsors is naive. Vince McMahon is a multi-billionaire, he can, and I'm sure has, give money to numerous causes without the self promotion. They don't, and while that is totally their prerogative, and doesn't make them bad people, let's call it what it is, and understand that the WWE hypothetically making a DVD and giving all the profits to Owen's charity, still helps the company in the boardroom. If Vince McMahon was so interested in helping the legacy of the Owen Hart foundation, and I can't say that he hasn't done this, he could certainly make a financial donation quietly.

This is true, though it is by no means unique to WWE. Nearly every corporate charitable cause/contribution is done with future profits in mind. It’s all branding. They teach it in business school. Get people to see your brand as a positive contributor to overall society and more people will want to do business with you. For every $1 that is spent on philanthropy, you make multiple in increased sales. Just compare the number of dollars the NFL has contributed to breast cancer research to the number of dollars in sales they’ve done selling pink officially licenced NFL apparel.

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

Jul 15, 2018 8:43:55 GMT -5 Chris Hammers said:

While I get why she would want to distance herself from the company that ultimately killed her husband. I've not really ever understood why those decisions would end up being up to her? At least after it happened, I feel like that sort of "use of name/face/matches for merch" should of went to his parents when they were alive, no? I guess it just seems odd to me that a whole family of blood relatives want something, but seemingly have no say in the matter.

Common courtesy I suppose, on WWE's part.

she's his wife. these things ALWAYS default to them over anyone else.

[Mighty Attack Tribble]

Jul 15, 2018 8:43:55 GMT -5 Chris Hammers said:

While I get why she would want to distance herself from the company that ultimately killed her husband. I've not really ever understood why those decisions would end up being up to her? At least after it happened, I feel like that sort of "use of name/face/matches for merch" should of went to his parents when they were alive, no? I guess it just seems odd to me that a whole family of blood relatives want something, but seemingly have no say in the matter.

Common courtesy I suppose, on WWE's part.

In the event of death, without a will that states otherwise the default is for all legal privilodges to rest solely with the spouse first, followed by children (if they are of age). Only in the event that Owen was unmarried and had no children when he died would Stu and Helen have been able to have any say in the matter.

[cjh]

Jul 15, 2018 8:43:55 GMT -5 Chris Hammers said:

While I get why she would want to distance herself from the company that ultimately killed her husband. I've not really ever understood why those decisions would end up being up to her? At least after it happened, I feel like that sort of "use of name/face/matches for merch" should of went to his parents when they were alive, no? I guess it just seems odd to me that a whole family of blood relatives want something, but seemingly have no say in the matter.

Common courtesy I suppose, on WWE's part.

WWE's footage of Owen is the company's property to use as they wish, and the various contracts he signed likely had language in them where he agreed to that.

With other merchandise, like T-shirts, action figures, and video games, those rights typically are only valid for x years, then a new deal has to be signed.  With Owen deceased, Martha is the one who would sign such a deal on his behalf.  She seems to just not want to deal with WWE, as she did sign a deal with Acclaim for Owen to be in the Legends of Wrestling game series.

[1 Free Moon-Down with Burger]

Wrestling is fake. Owen was actually for real killed by the WWE’s negligence.

[nisidhe]

Jul 15, 2018 8:43:55 GMT -5 Chris Hammers said:

While I get why she would want to distance herself from the company that ultimately killed her husband. I've not really ever understood why those decisions would end up being up to her? At least after it happened, I feel like that sort of "use of name/face/matches for merch" should of went to his parents when they were alive, no? I guess it just seems odd to me that a whole family of blood relatives want something, but seemingly have no say in the matter.

Common courtesy I suppose, on WWE's part.

Not sure if you're old enough to understand all the legal and social ramifications of marriage. When a couple gets married, they cease to be under the legal "control", as it were, of their families of origin (parents, siblings, etc.); and instead form their own family unit. In modern Western society, emphasis for the couple is on the new family, which takes precedence over either of the other families. Martha holds the rights to Owen's legacy by right of the fact that he married her. This is the way of all marriages in North America, unless there is a will outlining otherwise and, even then, a will may not suffice to sever the widow's rights to her husband's estate.

When he died, he likely did so without a will - not uncommon when one is only 34 and is not in such a high-risk job as to see the need for one. The Harts may whine and groan about it but, it's important to note, they also were found to be interfering with Martha's civil case against WWE, solely to ensure that other members of the Hart clan would find employment with WWE. The civil war within the Harts - with Ellie and Diana on one side and Bret on the other - was destroying Martha's bargaining power with WWE and ultimately forced her to settle for far less than she might have done.

In the end, Martha took what she had left of her husband and walked away with it. I'd have done the same thing in her shoes - he chose her instead of that family, knowing what she brought to the table and what she wanted for their life together. He wanted it, too. Nothing the Harts could say, after all that's happened, could gainsay that fact.

[segaz]

Jul 14, 2018 11:26:40 GMT -5 Red Impact said:

They do do it by including the Owen footage, and she was furious that they did it. That's why I think the idea that she should capitulate and let WWE further profit off of him is a tad ridiculous, they already did so without her consent.

As far as the other wrestlers go, they've all had other matches they can benefit from. Her children have never had another father.

That includes the royal rumble matches he takes part in, or his kotr 94 matches?

I can't argue with the second point about her children, because no answer would ever suffice. We'd be arguing the same of it had been Hogan who had died in that stunt, that possibly all content involving him should be removed in accordance with his wifes wishes. No matter what, iyo the point of the children suffering without a dad means justice should be no more relevant past footage being made available by the company.

We'd have to wait for maybe his grandchildren to grant permission. And then the great grandchildren can take it all away again if they so wish. By this point, who's really holding who hostage here?

[The Thread Barbi]

Jul 16, 2018 12:34:45 GMT -5 segaz said:

Jul 14, 2018 11:26:40 GMT -5 Red Impact said:

They do do it by including the Owen footage, and she was furious that they did it. That's why I think the idea that she should capitulate and let WWE further profit off of him is a tad ridiculous, they already did so without her consent.

As far as the other wrestlers go, they've all had other matches they can benefit from. Her children have never had another father.

That includes the royal rumble matches he takes part in, or his kotr 94 matches?

I can't argue with the second point about her children, because no answer would ever suffice. We'd be arguing the same of it had been Hogan who had died in that stunt, that possibly all content involving him should be removed in accordance with his wifes wishes. No matter what, iyo the point of the children suffering without a dad means justice should be no more relevant past footage being made available by the company.

We'd have to wait for maybe his grandchildren to grant permission. And then the great grandchildren can take it all away again if they so wish. By this point, who's really holding who hostage here?

His kids have an advantage in that there exists hundreds of hours, of not thousands, of footage of their father.

Poor substitute for Owen, but they can see their father at work anytime without necessarily the company profiting.

[joeiscool]

Jul 14, 2018 12:08:53 GMT -5 @nichotine said:

Jul 13, 2018 15:32:05 GMT -5 joeiscool said:

I agree with Bret here. She Obviously has the legal right to do whatever.

But I think from a family perspective she's wrong.

Owen wasn't just her husband, but other people's brother, father,son, and friend. Wrestling was a big part of his life, and if a wwe hall of fame induction is how some people would feel closer I think she as a member of Owen's family should really take into consideration doing it.

I don't think there's a right or wrong between Bret and Martha. The big wrong was WWE putting Owen up there in the first place. Bret and Martha's viewpoints are both valid, it's not a matter of putting one's opinion over the other as much as that when you make a mistake that huge, the chips are gonna fall where they're gonna fall and unfortunately for wrestling fans, Martha's unable to forgive WWE. As the ones with blood on their hands I think the right thing for WWE to do is leave Owen's memory alone if they can't get a family consensus on what to do with it.

I'm probably in the minority here but I think wwe wasn't in the wrong for putting him up there.

While, hindsight is 20/20. WWE was using a method of suspension that is used in a lot of forms of live entertainment like concerts, theater, circus, and even another wrestling promotion (wcw).
Ultimately someone made a mistake which lead to his death.

But I don't think the mistake was choosing to do a "stunt" that is continuously done safely in all types of entertainment.

[segaz]

Jul 16, 2018 12:46:16 GMT -5 The Thread Barbi said:

Jul 16, 2018 12:34:45 GMT -5 segaz said:

That includes the royal rumble matches he takes part in, or his kotr 94 matches?

I can't argue with the second point about her children, because no answer would ever suffice. We'd be arguing the same of it had been Hogan who had died in that stunt, that possibly all content involving him should be removed in accordance with his wifes wishes. No matter what, iyo the point of the children suffering without a dad means justice should be no more relevant past footage being made available by the company.

We'd have to wait for maybe his grandchildren to grant permission. And then the great grandchildren can take it all away again if they so wish. By this point, who's really holding who hostage here?

His kids have an advantage in that there exists hundreds of hours, of not thousands, of footage of their father.

Poor substitute for Owen, but they can see their father at work anytime without necessarily the company profiting.

I suppose, although there is a potential possible piracy issue if others also said "we want our WWE footage to be made available through anyone except for the owners, WWE."
Maybe it's a little off subject

[The Thread Barbi]

Jul 16, 2018 13:06:08 GMT -5 segaz said:

Jul 16, 2018 12:46:16 GMT -5 The Thread Barbi said:

His kids have an advantage in that there exists hundreds of hours, of not thousands, of footage of their father.

Poor substitute for Owen, but they can see their father at work anytime without necessarily the company profiting.

I suppose, although there is a potential possible piracy issue if others also said "we want our WWE footage to be made available through anyone except for the owners, WWE."
Maybe it's a little off subject

Not piracy, rather WWE offering a free lifetime network subscription to his children and further descendants so they can access footage of Owen Hart.

It's tragic, but if Owen Hart had become a firefighter, never a wrestler, and died in the line of duty, the only footage they would have is home videos, and not professionally produced presentation of his work.

[cjh]

Jul 16, 2018 12:34:45 GMT -5 segaz said:

Jul 14, 2018 11:26:40 GMT -5 Red Impact said:

They do do it by including the Owen footage, and she was furious that they did it. That's why I think the idea that she should capitulate and let WWE further profit off of him is a tad ridiculous, they already did so without her consent.

As far as the other wrestlers go, they've all had other matches they can benefit from. Her children have never had another father.

That includes the royal rumble matches he takes part in, or his kotr 94 matches?

I can't argue with the second point about her children, because no answer would ever suffice. We'd be arguing the same of it had been Hogan who had died in that stunt, that possibly all content involving him should be removed in accordance with his wifes wishes. No matter what, iyo the point of the children suffering without a dad means justice should be no more relevant past footage being made available by the company.

We'd have to wait for maybe his grandchildren to grant permission. And then the great grandchildren can take it all away again if they so wish. By this point, who's really holding who hostage here?

There is no footage of Owen being "held back."  WWE can and does use their footage of Owen all the time.  They released a set on him less than 3 years ago, and there are dozens and dozens of his matches on WWE Network.

[Mecca]

Jul 14, 2018 12:36:34 GMT -5 @jdogindy said:

Jul 12, 2018 18:33:49 GMT -5 segaz said:

Look if it was up to her, Owen would be removed totally from all WWE programming. She's hurting, i understand that, it must be terrible for her.
But I think we do know this is definitely not what Owen himself would have wanted.

I agree 100% on if Martha could do that, she would erase every piece of footage, then sue the pants off of anyone who brings Owen up, much like how the Elvis Presley estate does for any official acknowledgement of his final years.

This sums up pretty much how I feel about it too. I think Bret really feels like the person he was closest too and maybe mattered more to him than anyone else maybe even his own children is gone and is being forgotten by design by Martha.

Knowing just how much Owen and wrestling has always meant to Bret the idea that she is just letting him fade away has to really burn Bret up when all he wants to do is make sure his brother is always remembered.

It's got to be really frustrating on his end to think that Martha and him were the 2 closest people to Owen and she basically shits on what he thinks. I get why she is upset about everything that happened but at the very least she should talk with Bret out of nothing more than respect for his relationship with Owen.

Things like Legacy matter to a guy like Bret Hart so you can easily understand why when he feels like his brother is being forgotten by design he is really upset and frustrated by it, and then feels like that person isn't even open to talking about it.

[2coldMack is even more baffled]

Jul 16, 2018 15:17:49 GMT -5 Mecca said:

Jul 14, 2018 12:36:34 GMT -5 @jdogindy said:

I agree 100% on if Martha could do that, she would erase every piece of footage, then sue the pants off of anyone who brings Owen up, much like how the Elvis Presley estate does for any official acknowledgement of his final years.

This sums up pretty much how I feel about it too. I think Bret really feels like the person he was closest too and maybe mattered more to him than anyone else maybe even his own children is gone and is being forgotten by design by Martha.

Knowing just how much Owen and wrestling has always meant to Bret the idea that she is just letting him fade away has to really burn Bret up when all he wants to do is make sure his brother is always remembered.

It's got to be really frustrating on his end to think that Martha and him were the 2 closest people to Owen and she basically shits on what he thinks. I get why she is upset about everything that happened but at the very least she should talk with Bret out of nothing more than respect for his relationship with Owen.

Things like Legacy matter to a guy like Bret Hart so you can easily understand why when he feels like his brother is being forgotten by design he is really upset and frustrated by it, and then feels like that person isn't even open to talking about it.

I'm one of the biggest Bret marks on this board, and I give Bret the benefit of the doubt on a lot of stuff. But when it comes to any lingering concerns of "Owen's legacy", you know what? Bret can go screw. Martha lost her husband, those kids lost their dad. Some silly kayfabe legacy isn't anything next to that, and trying to claim that it is is....wow.

[Mighty Attack Tribble]

Jul 16, 2018 12:34:45 GMT -5 segaz said:

Jul 14, 2018 11:26:40 GMT -5 Red Impact said:

They do do it by including the Owen footage, and she was furious that they did it. That's why I think the idea that she should capitulate and let WWE further profit off of him is a tad ridiculous, they already did so without her consent.

As far as the other wrestlers go, they've all had other matches they can benefit from. Her children have never had another father.

That includes the royal rumble matches he takes part in, or his kotr 94 matches?

I can't argue with the second point about her children, because no answer would ever suffice. We'd be arguing the same of it had been Hogan who had died in that stunt, that possibly all content involving him should be removed in accordance with his wifes wishes. No matter what, iyo the point of the children suffering without a dad means justice should be no more relevant past footage being made available by the company.

We'd have to wait for maybe his grandchildren to grant permission. And then the great grandchildren can take it all away again if they so wish. By this point, who's really holding who hostage here?

There's no "hostage" situation. It's essentially a rights issue. The name and likeness of Owen Hart belongs to Martha Hart, and as such any attempt to market new IPs (action figures, tees, video games, etc.) bearing his name and likeness will require her to sign off on it.

WWE can, however, market any footage that they own in any way they see fit. Owen Hart Network special and DVD set? Absolutely. They already won a court case over Owen's inclusion in the Hart Foundation DVD set. HOF induction? No legal restriction denies them the right to air a video package and have Bret give a speech. They haven't thus far out of respect to Martha and the kids, and as much as that pisses Bret off, that's their choice.

[Sparvid]

Apparently Bret is not one to something lie.

www.facebook.com/hitmanbrethart/posts/10156642506929443

This past week, I have received multiple requests for comment regarding my recent interview on a podcast and the rebuttal made by Dr. Martha Hart. First of all, I want to express my disappointment in both the Calgary Sun and Calgary Herald for running a gossip-style article and making it front page news when there are more pressing issues in the world to highlight. You are better than that. I listened back to the interview in question and I specifically want to address Martha's comments about my words being "cruel, reckless, irresponsible, and hurtful".

Stampede Wrestling was an institution in the city of Calgary. Wrestling was our family business. My brothers and I either wrestled for my father Stu or worked behind the scenes. Fans packed the Victoria Pavilion every Friday night for decades. Martha has seemed to have forgotten that she attended those same shows before she met Owen. She was, by definition, a wrestling fan. That same group Martha appears to look down upon and ignore.

Earlier this year, Mark Henry took time during his WWE Hall of Fame induction to specifically address Martha. With tears in his eyes, Henry pleaded with her to allow Owen to be inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame. My nieces and nephews were in the audience with tears in their eyes as he expressed how much he deserved to be there with his peers. Fans have told me they had tears in their eyes when they watched the moment on television. Those same fans Martha sat side-by-side with at Stampede Wrestling and WWE events. Those same fans that donate to the Owen Hart Foundation and helped make it what it is today because they remember the joy he brought to their lives and not by how he died. Those royalty checks she receives from the company she says she doesn't want any part of? Those are also from those same fans. To her, their tears do not matter. To me, that is cruel and hurtful.

It is true that Martha and I were close at one time. I was right by her side after Owen's death until she received her settlement from WWE and proclaimed me a "pest". Martha later declared herself and her children Harts in name only, called us all "black sheep", and ceased contact with the rest of the Hart family. She further isolated from us when we all came together in 2010 to honour our father Stu being inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame and participated in a DVD that celebrated our family (Hart & Soul). Owen's children do not have a relationship with his brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, and cousins. One of my nieces, in fact, named her son Owen after him. I do not know Oje and I wouldn't know Athena if she walked passed me on the street. Owen's children only know of their father's family by what is told by their mother, whatever that may be, painting us all with one broad brush. To block Owen's children from knowing their father's family, to me, is cruel, reckless, and irresponsible.

Owen's tragic accident almost 20 years ago changed our family forever. Martha lost her soulmate and her children lost their father. You have to remember, however, that I also lost my brother. My children lost their uncle. My grandchildren will only know him through pictures and stories. His peers lost a close friend who filled them with endless laughter through long periods on the road. The fans lost someone that they lovingly connected to. Martha is not alone in her loss and grief.

The Owen Hart Foundation is a wonderful charity that has raised millions of dollars and has helped many people in its 19 year history. I am not disputing or denying that whatsoever. I disagree, however, that it should be the sole outlet to remember Owen by. This is not just about Owen being inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame. This is about his wrestling career, his wrestling legacy, his contribution to the business that he loved and honouring that contribution. Owen Hart was a world-renowned professional wrester, and a damn good one. He was part of the foundation that our family name was built on not just in the city of Calgary but all over the world. For Martha to want to rewrite history, to refuse to acknowledge or recognize his great wrestling career, to brush off what he, myself, and my father did as "that fake stuff" is wrong.

Owen Hart was a wrestler. The next generation deserve to know how great he truly was.

I am happy to hear that my brother Owen will be inducted into the George Tragos/Lou Thesz Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame on July 28 in Waterloo, Iowa. My father and I are past honourees. While I will not be in attendance, the Hart family will be well-represented with my brothers Ross, Bruce, Keith, sister Diana, and my nephew Harry Smith accepting the honour on his behalf. Thank you to the Board of Directors for recognizing his wrestling career, his contributions to the wrestling business, and his legacy. I'm sure the event will be filled with laughter, tears, and an overall appreciation for the man that he was. I can only hope that this is only the beginning.

Bret Hart x

[warriorthug4edge]

Its such a terrible mess and the kind of thing where you can't totally fault either side for feeling the way they do (I tend to side a little more with Martha, but I understand where Bret's coming from)...

But the part in the third paragraph about folks with tears in their eyes absolutely killed me. Wonder if they'd been watching their Bret Hart collection before talking to the Hitman about Owen being in the Hall of Fame.