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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 18:26:50 GMT -5
They're f***ing lucky the fans are even there, f*** off
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Post by Starshine on Jul 18, 2018 18:35:33 GMT -5
They're f***ing lucky the fans are even there, f*** off Exactly right, and as I emphasised before in my prior post, we need to remember these people paid to sit there, so writ large they wanted to watch this stuff. Also adding a Simpsons reference here:  Blaming fans is just an easy scapegoat because then no one has to take responsibility. That's all it is. Cowardly people who are scared to be held accountable for their decisions. |
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Jul 18, 2018 19:43:02 GMT -5
Also adding a Simpsons reference here:  Just wanted to agree with you. If WWE can't or won't give fans what they want, the fans will continue to hijack the shows. Quite honestly, I'm surprised there hasn't yet been a riot. |
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Jul 18, 2018 20:33:19 GMT -5
They're f***ing lucky the fans are even there, f*** off Exactly right, and as I emphasised before in my prior post, we need to remember these people paid to sit there, so writ large they wanted to watch this stuff. Also adding a Simpsons reference here: Blaming fans is just an easy scapegoat because then no one has to take responsibility. It wouldn't surprise me to know that some fans pay to hate-watch |
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Post by Starshine on Jul 18, 2018 20:43:41 GMT -5
Exactly right, and as I emphasised before in my prior post, we need to remember these people paid to sit there, so writ large they wanted to watch this stuff. Also adding a Simpsons reference here: Blaming fans is just an easy scapegoat because then no one has to take responsibility. It wouldn't surprise me to know that some fans pay to hate-watch So they pay arena priced tickets just to let WWE know they hate it? What are you basing this on? It's not the same as tuning into hate-watch a TV show that costs nothing extra. |
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jul 18, 2018 20:50:03 GMT -5
An accurate summation of "The fans pay to hate it" argument, courtesy of a ten year old Penny Arcade:
EDIT: Sorry, forgot about the profanity rules, my bad. Hope I edited quickly enough.
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Juice
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Post by Juice on Jul 18, 2018 20:51:48 GMT -5
Imagine spending good money to go to a show that had little to no effort put into it and being told that "you're bad fans" for not enjoying it. The reason the fans turned on it was part of the rig for camera and stage blocked a ton of peoples view for the countdown. |
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Jul 18, 2018 21:10:53 GMT -5
It wouldn't surprise me to know that some fans pay to hate-watch So they pay arena priced tickets just to let WWE know they hate it? What are you basing this on? It's not the same as tuning into hate-watch a TV show that costs nothing extra. They're not paying for the $500 collectible chair seats, I will agree with that. But I have been to shows where fans pay $ to ruin the show not just for the performers but for the fans who paid their money to actually come and be entertained. One show, two guys were so obnoxious that Carlito threw his apple at them. They came and BRAGGED To me about this. I read them the riot act and threatened to have security throw them out. Another show, some dude chanted for Edge "Super Dragon!" style through the entire show, knowing that Edge had 0% of being at this event for any reason. Everyone wants to have a good time at the show and yes, some things deserve jeers and heckling. But if we're at a part you're not interested in, wouldn't this be better served with a bathroom break, drink refills, make a phone call? Silence is what kills matches and feuds. WWE listens to silence. |
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Post by deviljatt86 on Jul 18, 2018 21:22:46 GMT -5
My take on this is that this kind of behavior would be unacceptable in any other place. Wrestling, in my opinion, is like any other live show: you go there to watch, enjoy yourself and be part of the show, not to take over the show. For example, if you go to a taping of a late night show, you go there and be part of their show according to their rules. You don't go there and boo the host or throw beach balls around. You go there and watch the show, and applaud and laugh when you are told to (the best you can you do, ignore those and stay quiet)
In sports, the fans go there and cheer their team on. They don't go and start chanting boring if the game is totally one-sided, all they do, in that case, is just leave and beat the traffic
That brings me to the solution to this problem. If a show is horrible and boring, instead of trying to take over the show, just leave. When enough people start leaving, the company will take notice. A loud obnoxious but packed crowd is still easy to sell as a positive, but a quiet & empty stadium can not be sold as a positive. If the crowd is chanting something unwanted, WWE will just edit it out. If there is no crowd, what is WWE going to edit?
Also, about the notion of no one goes there to be bored and take over, that is not completely true. Some people are naturally rude, and almost every comedy show has at least one person who is only there to heckle. If enough people don't find the comedian good, the audience just walks out or the audience just stops attending future shows.
I am not saying WWE is amazing, or doesn't put on crappy shows; they do. However, this obnoxious behavior is not their fault. If the show was sooo bad, no one would go. We can complain about the WWE and their lack of proper storytelling or lack of logic, we also suffer from the same problem. We pay them good money to attend their shows but then call it boring and stupid. Then next month, we are there in line again, waiting to spend our hard earned money to again, shit on the show. And for those who say, that people want a good show and hence they attend, how many consecutive shows must be terrible before we stop hoping for a good show?
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Post by Starshine on Jul 18, 2018 21:38:06 GMT -5
So they pay arena priced tickets just to let WWE know they hate it? What are you basing this on? It's not the same as tuning into hate-watch a TV show that costs nothing extra. They're not paying for the $500 collectible chair seats, I will agree with that. But I have been to shows where fans pay $ to ruin the show not just for the performers but for the fans who paid their money to actually come and be entertained. One show, two guys were so obnoxious that Carlito threw his apple at them. They came and BRAGGED To me about this. I read them the riot act and threatened to have security throw them out. Another show, some dude chanted for Edge "Super Dragon!" style through the entire show, knowing that Edge had 0% of being at this event for any reason. Everyone wants to have a good time at the show and yes, some things deserve jeers and heckling. But if we're at a part you're not interested in, wouldn't this be better served with a bathroom break, drink refills, make a phone call? Silence is what kills matches and feuds. WWE listens to silence. You're talking about regular run of the mill assholes now. That's a different argument. Idiots will be idiots no matter where you go, whether they're inebriated or not. There's just no evidence to justify any sort of belief that there are fans who go to WWE shows wanting to hate it. It makes no sense, especially in an age where everyone already has an online voice through Twitter, Facebook, et al. Fans revolting isn't a root of a problem, it's a symptom. Unless WWE admits that, they're going to keep running into this. |
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Post by ben:friendship frog on Jul 18, 2018 22:40:31 GMT -5
They're not paying for the $500 collectible chair seats, I will agree with that. But I have been to shows where fans pay $ to ruin the show not just for the performers but for the fans who paid their money to actually come and be entertained. One show, two guys were so obnoxious that Carlito threw his apple at them. They came and BRAGGED To me about this. I read them the riot act and threatened to have security throw them out. Another show, some dude chanted for Edge "Super Dragon!" style through the entire show, knowing that Edge had 0% of being at this event for any reason. Everyone wants to have a good time at the show and yes, some things deserve jeers and heckling. But if we're at a part you're not interested in, wouldn't this be better served with a bathroom break, drink refills, make a phone call? Silence is what kills matches and feuds. WWE listens to silence. You're talking about regular run of the mill assholes now. That's a different argument. Idiots will be idiots no matter where you go, whether they're inebriated or not. There's just no evidence to justify any sort of belief that there are fans who go to WWE shows wanting to hate it. It makes no sense, especially in an age where everyone already has an online voice through Twitter, Facebook, et al. Fans revolting isn't a root of a problem, it's a symptom. Unless WWE admits that, they're going to keep running into this. Not to mention for things like the countdown thing happening in the Iron Man Match, you're looking at around 6000 people who came just to have a moan? No chance. |
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Jul 18, 2018 22:57:45 GMT -5
You're talking about regular run of the mill assholes now. That's a different argument. Idiots will be idiots no matter where you go, whether they're inebriated or not. There's just no evidence to justify any sort of belief that there are fans who go to WWE shows wanting to hate it. It makes no sense, especially in an age where everyone already has an online voice through Twitter, Facebook, et al. Fans revolting isn't a root of a problem, it's a symptom. Unless WWE admits that, they're going to keep running into this. Not to mention for things like the countdown thing happening in the Iron Man Match, you're looking at around 6000 people who came just to have a moan? No chance. The only evidence I can offer is it only takes one asshole to get a bunch of bored drunks to be assholes with them. I've said it before - John Cena has never had to sweat his job because people respond negatively and positively to him. The same "Polarizing!" rhetoric is now being used in the case of Roman Reigns. So Roman's not going to go anywhere. I freely admit turning off ER before the Iron Man because I thought the show was over. I turned it back on and wished I had watched it on mute. |
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 18, 2018 23:41:48 GMT -5
This is a topic I feel a couple of different things about, but ultimately I cast the main issues at the feet of the promotion in the vast majority of cases.
I'll start with where I sometimes find myself laying a bit of blame at the feet of fans, because ultimately I don't think fans have the biggest responsibility, but it can still be worth discussing the role we all play in the things we enjoy (or want to enjoy).
First, I do believe fans can sometimes hurt a wrestling show by trying to "get themselves over" or whatever the hell you want to call it. It's nowhere near as common as many people would lead you to believe, but it can happen. I was at the ROH show in Manhattan a number of years ago where fans decided to spend an entire Austin Aries/Petey Williams world title match chanting "TWINKIES!" after any two count done by the ref, Todd Sinclair; I'd be lying if I said it wasn't incredibly distracting after awhile, and detracted from the match no matter how the performers attempted to work around it. Hell, I was always of the mind that fans at WM XX were unfair during the Lesnar/Goldberg match; the "you sold out!" chants at Brock rubbed me the wrong way, considering he was leaving WWE to make less money pursuing football.
Also, I do acknowledge that there's a certain masochism that some (again, it's only some, absolutely not a majority) seem to engage in where they know something is making them miserable or at least unsatisfied, yet they'll show up to support it, regardless. WWE's slide into repetition and staleness is not exactly a new development; it's been pretty steadily ongoing for probably at least fifteen years, now. Vince's product is Vince's product, and it's been this way for ages.
All of that out of the way, though, certain points have to be acknowledged:
-That ROH show and WM XX? To be fair to those crowds, nobody thought Petey Williams, someone who's never been a ROH regular, was going to win the title that night, and generating drama wasn't going to be simple. At WM XX, Lesnar/Goldberg was a match between two guys who were leaving the company, so the outcome meant nothing. Does that fully justify what some in those crowds did? I'd argue not entirely, but it's still a reflection on the product the crowd was presented.
-With showing up even when the shows aren't satisfying, I'll compare it a bit with real sports. My favorite team, the Mets, absolutely suck this year, so I haven't been to a game at Citi Field yet; I have expenses and other things I could be doing instead of watching my team lose and not getting a good enough glimpse at a potential future for the club. That said, the odds are very high I will get to a game in Queens at some point this season because even if the team sucks, I've been to enough games in my life that I know how to enjoy myself, regardless: good food, drinks, conversation with other fans, a nice night out in the open air, etc. Some people get season tickets every single year no matter how bad the team might be, and that's the type of stuff they get those tickets for. Just so with some WWE fans, I'm sure.
Granted, I know that I'm so exasperated with Mets ownership that I find myself wondering if and when I'll spend significant money on the team again until they sell to a new owner; I hit that breaking point with WWE years ago when I realized that I not only disliked their business practices, but that more simply it was a product that wasn't booked for my personal tastes in pro wrestling. However, as said earlier, my red line of "I'm done supporting this product" is going to vary from everyone else's; I might argue that some moments should have convinced more people to stop supporting WWE (Raw walkout angle, anyone?), and I do get kind of annoyed when people say how sick they are of WWE but steadfastly refuse to give other, alternative promotions a chance, but it's ultimately subjective.
I will say this, though: the absolute biggest problems WWE has with its audience are pretty much all of their own making. Looking at how WWE shows have been structured for nearly twenty years, now, it's unavoidable that WWE audiences eventually get conditioned to certain reactions and behaviors; that's true of audiences of any long-running production. The problem is that WWE has spent those decades instilling a sense in the audience that very few things they see actually matter.
The opening riff of a wrestler's theme song? That matters.
A catchphrase during a promo? That matters.
A finisher? That matters (except at WrestleMania, I guess).
The rest? Ehhh...
I don't know how this audience really was for Ziggler/Rollins; I believe the people saying they were into the match but just happened to do those countdowns, but I didn't watch it so I can't say for certain. However, if you're WWE you can't spend years and years conditioning your audience to not really care about what happens from bell-to-bell in a match until the finishing sequence and then expect the crowd to be invested in a match that's guaranteed to go 30 and end either in a tie or with someone up by one fall. Iron Man matches themselves aren't the problem: with the proper booking and storytelling nearly anything could be made interesting. But WWE doesn't do many creative callbacks to older matches, they don't emphasize in-ring storytelling or psychology to a significant degree, they don't use what happens in the ring to evolve their characters very much...so, really, can you blame a crowd for getting a few minutes into what they already know will be a thirty minute ride and starting to ask "are we there yet?"
Put more succinctly: you can't spend years telling people "the journey doesn't matter, just the destination" (and even THAT doesn't always matter given the stupid "wins and losses don't mean anything!" talking point) and then be all surprised when they're not thrilled with the journey.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jul 19, 2018 0:08:11 GMT -5
However, as said earlier, my red line of "I'm done supporting this product" is going to vary from everyone else's; I might argue that some moments should have convinced more people to stop supporting WWE (Raw walkout angle, anyone?), and I do get kind of annoyed when people say how sick they are of WWE but steadfastly refuse to give other, alternative promotions a chance, but it's ultimately subjective. One thing I'll say here is that I think you see this because, for the most part, one can continue to more or less keep up with WWE without having to spend any money. Not so much with most other promotions. |
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Post by King Boo on Jul 19, 2018 0:10:22 GMT -5
Holy shit, the pretzel-like knots some people will twist into in order to put the blame anywhere but on who deserves it is astounding.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jul 19, 2018 0:16:34 GMT -5
Some fans are part of the problem now. My HMO has been simple from the beginning, you give things a chance. Some live crowds have shown me over the last year or so that they have no concern about this at times and have chosen to pre-conclude that a match isn't worth their time to even try and care. The main event last week was a different story because it was the guy they wanted main eventing and they STILL had to be annoying during it.
No one has to react a certain way, but we need to be real here and at least establish that this issue doesn't exist in any other form of live entertainment. I hate the notion of "I paid money months ago so I can react how I want if I don't like it." You can be mad, you can boo, you can be pouty, but it feels to me like we've gone from "I'm voicing my displeasure of this particular moment" to "Look at me voicing my displeasure of this particular moment" and that's not WWE's fault.
Hell, I'm starting to feel that a good portion of these pay-per-view crowds (you know who I'm referring to) are past the point of shitting on Roman matches because of his spot but now do it out of his sheer existence. Well what is WWE supposed to do there? Take the guy off TV for no reason when he's still one of their biggest draws whether anyone's thrilled about that or not?
It's a lose/lose for everyone.
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Jul 19, 2018 0:18:27 GMT -5
Holy shit, the pretzel-like knots some people will twist into in order to put the blame anywhere but on who deserves it is astounding. Never said WWE was perfect |
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Post by Starshine on Jul 19, 2018 0:41:42 GMT -5
Some fans are part of the problem now. My HMO has been simple from the beginning, you give things a chance. Some live crowds have shown me over the last year or so that they have no concern about this at times and have chosen to pre-conclude that a match isn't worth their time to even try and care. The main event last week was a different story because it was the guy they wanted main eventing and they STILL had to be annoying during it. No one has to react a certain way, but we need to be real here and at least establish that this issue doesn't exist in any other form of live entertainment. I hate the notion of "I paid money months ago so I can react how I want if I don't like it." You can be mad, you can boo, you can be pouty, but it feels to me like we've gone from "I'm voicing my displeasure of this particular moment" to "Look at me voicing my displeasure of this particular moment" and that's not WWE's fault. Hell, I'm starting to feel that a good portion of these pay-per-view crowds (you know who I'm referring to) are past the point of shitting on Roman matches because of his spot but now do it out of his sheer existence. Well what is WWE supposed to do there? Take the guy off TV for no reason when he's still one of their biggest draws whether anyone's thrilled about that or not? It's a lose/lose for everyone. But these reactions aren't just randomly happening, we've seen a slow progression leading us to this point in the last few years. Take Roman Reigns for an example of a guy who's getting the worst of it. In 2015 the guys was getting solid boos from the crowd, you didn't see this more current indifference. Vince McMahon looked at that and said to himself, 'this is fine, let's keep doing the same thing.' Eventually the anger turns to indifference and you get crowds more focused on entertaining themselves. At the same time they slowly started increasing the lengths of their shows, beginning with the larger ones, and ending with the whole lot getting at least an extra hour of content. Scant few of these shows have had strong endings, the crowd is either out of it, or they seem to lose patience, or even just up and leave. Again, Vince McMahon saw this and said to himself, 'this is fine.' This is not something we've seen before to this extent. You'd see the odd "bizarro world" crowd every now and then, but now it's happening every big show, all across the country. There's no common variable to argue it's there's a specific trend on their side. So when you make an allusion to referring to some specific section of fans, it doesn't have any weight. So like, if the fans as a whole are now the problem, what's the solution? Stop letting them into the arenas? I've said it again and again, but it just doesn't make any sense to point at them and say they're the root of the problem. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 1:16:52 GMT -5
I don't know if the comments I'm going to make have been brought up or not (I don't have time at the moment to go back through the thread)but here are some thoughts:
1. The old adage of if you don't like it, don't watch it/pay/vote with your wallet
I really feel like this is a cop-out. In order for this to have any effect at all you would need a huge amount of people to be doing this simultaneously or at least within the same time frame. One person will not, in the grand scheme of things, cause any sort of change. At smaller levels one person or a couple can always be replaced by new people getting into the product. They are only thing changing in this scenario is their own focus and directing their energy elsewhere.
2. No other options
Other than what I will touch on last, what other options are there for people to vent their frustration? Ones that would truly get someone, anyone, of some worth to take notice of the issues with the product. I do not see what other action someone could take, on their own, that would have a large enough effect. E-mails or letters just get sent to someone who's job it is to reply back with pre-scripted ( the irony is palpable) responses. Phone calls to a customer service department/HR/equivalent would be met with similar results. Same with trying to contact someone via social-media and chances are they could be working you if they are talent in some capacity. Fans don't have the ability to create competition to force WWE's hand like WCW once did, any the companies who currently exist who could have any chance at doing that are either: Content with what they are doing on their own, don't have the talent,resources, TV distribution to compete on large scale level, have working relationships with WWE, or are Impact Wrestling.
So again I ask, what other solution is there? besides...
3. Chanting in solidarity
This is only reasonable, obtainable and preformable action that people have, which also happens to be the most direct. From your own mouth, to the company and either they are forced to take notice or they make some bullshit "most polarizing superstar" obfuscation because they are aggravatingly stubborn. We know that it can work, because the re-direction of the women's division is a result of it. (Getting them to not f*** up after they did something right, well, that's another problem altogether.)
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Jul 19, 2018 1:36:15 GMT -5
I don't know if the comments I'm going to make have been brought up or not (I don't have time at the moment to go back through the thread)but here are some thoughts: 1. The old adage of if you don't like it, don't watch it/pay/vote with your wallet I really feel like this is a cop-out. In order for this to have any effect at all you would need a huge amount of people to be doing this simultaneously or at least within the same time frame. One person will not, in the grand scheme of things, cause any sort of change. At smaller levels one person or a couple can always be replaced by new people getting into the product. They are only thing changing in this scenario is their own focus and directing their energy elsewhere. But if you're not satisfied with the product and know that your voice isn't being"heard", then giving WWE the silent treatment is still the "Loudest" thing you can do. We had a Rumble a few years back when Orton and Cena ended up in the ring against each other. It was met with ambivalent silence. They listened to that and didn't give us Orton/Cena #345,174,325,246 "And we mean it this time!!". So instead of making a ruckus at events, which WWE will take as "engagement" and push their agenda (positive reactions for your money, negative reactions out of spite because Vince is that petty), say nothing. Sit on your hands. If they can hear the AC system of the building, they'll know there's an issue. Silence is just as easy to do "in solidarity" and will get the message you want across. |
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