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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Apr 2, 2019 14:16:29 GMT -5
Not as long as Vince is around
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Post by darbus alan on Apr 2, 2019 14:24:15 GMT -5
like legit transgender? I mean the WWE is a show not a competition. I don’t see really any reason why it COULDNT be done. Are there a lot of transgender wrestlers active in the independent scene? I am however mortified at the mere thought of the WWE trying to portray this character in any light that doesn’t cause intense cringe I don't know how many trans wrestlers are currently working on the indies, mostly because I don't really follow indies that closely. But AEW did just sign Nyla Rose, a transwoman, to a contract. They're already hinting at having her in a program with Kylie Rae.
That said, I have a lot more faith in AEW than WWE to make it work because of the attitudes displayed by both organizations. Wrestling fans as a whole? Ehhhh. I hope the sort of fanbase AEW acquires will accept Nyla for who she is, but I dread transphobic chants headed her way.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Apr 2, 2019 14:24:43 GMT -5
It took them 35 years to do a female Wrestlemania main event, and said main event features someone who's transphobic. It would take a major management overhaul for me to be convinced it would be handled properly. I see it mentioned all the time, but unless she did different interviews since then stating something to the contrary, I’d say Ronda’s comments about Fallon Fox were more based on ignorance then hatred. She cited medical articles that have since been disproven, and quite frankly I’d wager a strong majority of people weren’t exactly well versed on trans issues and the legitimate science of it all in 2012 or 2013 when that interview happened. The vast majority of women’s fighters at the time held similar stances if I remember correctly, and were not interested in fighting her. Now, if she’s doubled down on said stance since then, then I will absolutely back down from my stance.
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Paul
Vegeta
Posts: 9,332
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Post by Paul on Apr 2, 2019 14:38:56 GMT -5
No. WWE doesn't do agenda-driven angles well or with any kind of decency or taste.
At all.
Ever.
Even when they actually do try (which is rare).
And most people don't want it intruding into their wrestling show to begin with for that very reason (amongst others).
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 24,148
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Post by Bo Rida on Apr 2, 2019 16:02:30 GMT -5
Orphan Black had great gay and lesbian characters and a transgender clone fit the nature vs nurture theme, however the episode he appeared in was a low point that nearly tanked the show with some weird near incest.
If a progressive show like that can't integrate such a character then my hopes for wwe aren't high.
(Admittedly character vs actor is a different situation but my general point stands)
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 16:25:47 GMT -5
That first thread is a great example of how times can change over ten years. That shit doesn't fly these days.
But to the topic, nope. WWE can't book most women, blacks and other minorities correctly. They'd fail with this.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Apr 2, 2019 16:42:36 GMT -5
They booked a Nia/Dean match that got pulled when advertisers got pissy, right?
So I don't think it completely matters what WWE is ready for. Even when they are trying, their hands are often tied by the almighty dollar, and intergender wrestling is the logical next step towards transpeople wrestling, and their sponsors weren't even ready for that.
God only knows what the PR offices at Snickers would think of a transperson wrestling in a WWE ring.
I think they'll do it the second they can get away with it. I just think that second's going to take a long time to arrive, and some of the particulars of that will skew too far into politics to elaborate on.
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Post by prettynami on Apr 2, 2019 16:43:57 GMT -5
Hmmm... If the WWE can't book pretty much anything well, then would anyone notice if they did transgender wrestlers and did it badly? So in one way it wouldn't matter, it would just be par for the course.
Of course, I suppose it would also probably get them mainstream attention they wouldn't want in two ways. Some people wouldn't like the content for simply existing, and others wouldn't like it because they would inevitably botch it in some way.
And you would probably bleed some viewers... Though the question is would that be at a rate faster than they are currently losing viewers. Though I feel like most of the people they lose these days is from simple attrition, and that the bulk of their repeat viewers these days are gluttons for punishment and would put up with almost anything, even things they don't like.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Apr 2, 2019 17:12:59 GMT -5
It took them 35 years to do a female Wrestlemania main event, and said main event features someone who's transphobic. It would take a major management overhaul for me to be convinced it would be handled properly. I see it mentioned all the time, but unless she did different interviews since then stating something to the contrary, I’d say Ronda’s comments about Fallon Fox were more based on ignorance then hatred. She cited medical articles that have since been disproven, and quite frankly I’d wager a strong majority of people weren’t exactly well versed on trans issues and the legitimate science of it all in 2012 or 2013 when that interview happened. The vast majority of women’s fighters at the time held similar stances if I remember correctly, and were not interested in fighting her. Now, if she’s doubled down on said stance since then, then I will absolutely back down from my stance. Lord knows, Ronda has said some really stupid stuff over the years, but her supposed transphobic comments were spoken from the position of "what kind of physical advantage does a male-to-female trans athlete have?" At the time, the science was very much undecided (and still is, to a lesser extent) and many athletic commissions did not allow trans athletes to compete in the division they transitioned to. Some still don't. As far as I'm aware, she's not said anything on the matter since, though given she's unlikely to fight again there's probably no reason for her to.
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Post by darbus alan on Apr 2, 2019 17:15:36 GMT -5
They booked a Nia/Dean match that got pulled when advertisers got pissy, right? So I don't think it completely matters what WWE is ready for. Even when they are trying, their hands are often tied by the almighty dollar, and intergender wrestling is the logical next step towards transpeople wrestling, and their sponsors weren't even ready for that. God only knows what the PR offices at Snickers would think of a transperson wrestling in a WWE ring. I think they'll do it the second they can get away with it. I just think that second's going to take a long time to arrive, and some of the particulars of that will skew too far into politics to elaborate on. To be fair, I don't think the sponsor backlash against Dean vs. Nia was fueled by transphobia or even seen by then as the next step towards trans inclusion. I think it's more the optics of a man even fake fighting a woman, especially with how prevalent domestic violence has been in the current media cycle. I think a woman being a surprise entrant in the men's Royal Rumble or a mixed tag match where a woman gets a couple of shots in against the male opponent are about the extent of how far that will go for now.
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
Posts: 31,498
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Apr 2, 2019 17:16:37 GMT -5
Do you think they might accept transgender wrestlers, or allow one of their own wrestlers to transition from one division to the next, without making it a joke like Santina? Do they even have any openly gay characters on their TV product that isn't a joke? I am not asking if they have any openly gay employees. I know they do and have. I mean that they have an openly gay character that isn't played for a laugh or had homophobic stereotypes used with them.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Apr 2, 2019 17:16:46 GMT -5
They booked a Nia/Dean match that got pulled when advertisers got pissy, right? So I don't think it completely matters what WWE is ready for. Even when they are trying, their hands are often tied by the almighty dollar, and intergender wrestling is the logical next step towards transpeople wrestling, and their sponsors weren't even ready for that. God only knows what the PR offices at Snickers would think of a transperson wrestling in a WWE ring. I think they'll do it the second they can get away with it. I just think that second's going to take a long time to arrive, and some of the particulars of that will skew too far into politics to elaborate on. To be fair, I don't think the sponsor backlash against Dean vs. Nia was fueled by transphobia or even seen by then as the next step towards trans inclusion. I think it's more the optics of a man even fake fighting a woman, especially with how prevalent domestic violence has been in the current media cycle. I think a woman being a surprise entrant in the men's Royal Rumble or a mixed tag match where a woman gets a couple of shots in against the male opponent are about the extent of how far that will go for now.
Yes I know, but that's my point. Man vs. woman wrestling is a smaller thing for them to manage than transgender wrestlers are, and they aren't even able to do that without backlash.
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Chainsaw
T
A very BAD man.
It is what it is
Posts: 90,480
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Post by Chainsaw on Apr 2, 2019 17:24:34 GMT -5
They booked a Nia/Dean match that got pulled when advertisers got pissy, right? So I don't think it completely matters what WWE is ready for. Even when they are trying, their hands are often tied by the almighty dollar, and intergender wrestling is the logical next step towards transpeople wrestling, and their sponsors weren't even ready for that. God only knows what the PR offices at Snickers would think of a transperson wrestling in a WWE ring. I think they'll do it the second they can get away with it. I just think that second's going to take a long time to arrive, and some of the particulars of that will skew too far into politics to elaborate on. The argument though is different when it comes to gender and sexual choice tho. Advertisers more and more are embracing the LGBTQA+ community, featuring them more in their own advertising even in the face of outcry from certain sectors. The advertisers problems with women fighting men is that they see it as being a violence against women issue. Even if we don't see it being that big of a deal, even when more times than not the women come out on top of the men, they feel like there's a slippery slope to advertising a woman fighting a man, and sadly some people aren't going to see the athletic context to the storyline of such. Hell, WWE had a gift handed to them when Darren Young came out of the closet, and the most they could think to do with him was teaming him up with Bob Backlund with the lame "Make Darren Young Great Again" gimmick. They had a real opportunity to make Darren the face of a LGBTQA+ movement within the company, and they punted when the chips were down (granted, Young's arm injury didn't help his cause, but they had petered out on him after his feud with the Miz.) I think the biggest hurdle towards having a trans wrestler in the company is always going to be the company itself and it's own fanbase which, let's just say, is targeted at a certain demographic.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Apr 2, 2019 17:28:58 GMT -5
They booked a Nia/Dean match that got pulled when advertisers got pissy, right? So I don't think it completely matters what WWE is ready for. Even when they are trying, their hands are often tied by the almighty dollar, and intergender wrestling is the logical next step towards transpeople wrestling, and their sponsors weren't even ready for that. God only knows what the PR offices at Snickers would think of a transperson wrestling in a WWE ring. I think they'll do it the second they can get away with it. I just think that second's going to take a long time to arrive, and some of the particulars of that will skew too far into politics to elaborate on. The argument though is different when it comes to gender and sexual choice tho. Advertisers more and more are embracing the LGBTQA+ community, featuring them more in their own advertising even in the face of outcry from certain sectors. The advertisers problems with women fighting men is that they see it as being a violence against women issue. Even if we don't see it being that big of a deal, even when more times than not the women come out on top of the men, they feel like there's a slippery slope to advertising a woman fighting a man, and sadly some people aren't going to see the athletic context to the storyline of such. Hell, WWE had a gift handed to them when Darren Young came out of the closet, and the most they could think to do with him was teaming him up with Bob Backlund with the lame "Make Darren Young Great Again" gimmick. They had a real opportunity to make Darren the face of a LGBTQA+ movement within the company, and they punted when the chips were down (granted, Young's arm injury didn't help his cause, but they had petered out on him after his feud with the Miz.) I think the biggest hurdle towards having a trans wrestler in the company is always going to be the company itself and it's own fanbase which, let's just say, is targeted at a certain demographic. That's part of what I mean. Having a trans wrestler means getting their audience and advertisers to accept that a transperson is the gender they identify as rather than what they were assigned at birth, or just removing the boundaries of gender violence, neither of which I can see happening. And while queerness is more accepted than ever, the 'T' in 'LGBTQAI+' is still one of the hottest buttons there is. I would LOVE WWE to be able to manage this, I just don't think they will for a while.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Apr 2, 2019 17:44:43 GMT -5
Do you think they might accept transgender wrestlers, or allow one of their own wrestlers to transition from one division to the next, without making it a joke like Santina? Do they even have any openly gay characters on their TV product that isn't a joke? I am not asking if they have any openly gay employees. I know they do and have. I mean that they have an openly gay character that isn't played for a laugh or had homophobic stereotypes used with them. Sonya is openly gay and they’ve promoted it on their site before. She’s not a gag or whatever. Her whole character just doesn’t revolve around being gay. Darren Young was the same way. He came out very publicly and got some play. He wasn’t dancing around or turned into a fairy. He was just same as he ever was. Only reason he didn’t stick around is that he just wasn’t very good.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 17:55:38 GMT -5
I don't honestly think WWE at this stage would do much of anything to offend if they had a transgendered wrestler. At this point there's a greater chance of them patting themselves on the back too hard about it than doing something obnoxious story-wise. Are there even that many notable transgendered wrestlers active right now?
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Apr 2, 2019 18:03:19 GMT -5
Do you think they might accept transgender wrestlers, or allow one of their own wrestlers to transition from one division to the next, without making it a joke like Santina? Do they even have any openly gay characters on their TV product that isn't a joke? I am not asking if they have any openly gay employees. I know they do and have. I mean that they have an openly gay character that isn't played for a laugh or had homophobic stereotypes used with them. I’m sure they’ve mentioned Sonya’s sexuality without making a big thing of it, so her character is acknowledged on screen as gay, but don’t know if there are any male wrestlers acknowledged as being gay but it not being their defining characteristic. It’s kinda hard to make “I’m homosexual” your defining gimmick without going over the top. You could be a wrestling janitor who happens to be gay, but as soon as you go wrestling gay who happens to be a janitor it’s hard to not creep into a stereotype. I’m not sure if I phrased that well, what I’m trying to say is wrestling gimmicks are an idea turned into a caricature. And if your entire gimmick is “I’m homosexual”, you’re naturally gonna lean into the more stereotypes because they’re easy to get across to the audience. If you’re in normal wrestling gear, with no defined gimmick beyond “I’m gay” how do you get that across to the crowd without going over the top? You can’t, because it’s not a gimmick. It’s a character trait, I can be part of a gimmick but not the gimmick. Can you imagine showing up and being told “Here’s you black boots, black trunks, and your gimmick is you’re straight. Go out and make the audience know you’re straight, without mic time”. Well, basically they only way to do that would basically be an over the top stereotype of lecherous sleeze bag hitting on all the woman in the crowd, lose because you can’t keep your hands off your girl or valet, or have him try and kiss his opponents valet and cross into a questionable #MeToo area.
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Post by GuyOfOwnage on Apr 2, 2019 18:07:05 GMT -5
Wow, the response in that thread is f***ing disgusting. Especially all the casual slurs going around. Just looking at that thread makes me realize just how much society has changed in a decade. Yeah, we still have assholes out there who casually throw around those kinds of slurs, but they're now the minority, and a lot of the people who used to use them have thankfully realized the error of their ways. Now to answer the question postulated by the OP, I don't know. I feel like some geographic regions would be more readily accepting than others. Your feel-good story about the first-ever transgendered wrestler could hit a major snag if they went somewhere and they got booed out of the building by a bunch of assholes. And wrestling fans at large aren't exactly the most forward-thinking in my experience. So would I like to see it? Absolutely. Will we see it? That I'm not so certain of.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,518
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Post by FinalGwen on Apr 2, 2019 18:16:13 GMT -5
Do they even have any openly gay characters on their TV product that isn't a joke? I am not asking if they have any openly gay employees. I know they do and have. I mean that they have an openly gay character that isn't played for a laugh or had homophobic stereotypes used with them. I’m sure they’ve mentioned Sonya’s sexuality without making a big thing of it, so her character is acknowledged on screen as gay, but don’t know if there are any male wrestlers acknowledged as being gay but it not being their defining characteristic. It’s kinda hard to make “I’m homosexual” your defining gimmick without going over the top. You could be a wrestling janitor who happens to be gay, but as soon as you go wrestling gay who happens to be a janitor it’s hard to not creep into a stereotype. I’m not sure if I phrased that well, what I’m trying to say is wrestling gimmicks are an idea turned into a caricature. And if your entire gimmick is “I’m homosexual”, you’re naturally gonna lean into the more stereotypes because they’re easy to get across to the audience. If you’re in normal wrestling gear, with no defined gimmick beyond “I’m gay” how do you get that across to the crowd without going over the top? You can’t, because it’s not a gimmick. It’s a character trait, I can be part of a gimmick but not the gimmick. Can you imagine showing up and being told “Here’s you black boots, black trunks, and your gimmick is you’re straight. Go out and make the audience know you’re straight, without mic time”. Well, basically they only way to do that would basically be an over the top stereotype of lecherous sleeze bag hitting on all the woman in the crowd, lose because you can’t keep your hands off your girl or valet, or have him try and kiss his opponents valet and cross into a questionable #MeToo area. Bi rather than gay by most accounts, but The Golden Lovers storyline shows you can craft a narrative around LGBT themes and have it be a nuanced part of a character. It's not Omega or Ibushi's entire gimmick, but it's something you can't just brush over or extricate from their narrative without completely wrecking the whole thing. Whereas I think the closest they've come to acknowledging Sonya is her wearing rainbow gear. I think that's more what we're aiming for rather than 'hey, paint us with broad stereotypes'.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 18:28:17 GMT -5
WWE probably couldn’t make a drag queen character work. I have no hope for them signing a transgender worker. They still haven’t had an openly gay wrestler.
But if theres someone in the indies getting a lot of buzz, I could see WWE inviting them to try out.
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