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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Apr 2, 2019 18:29:19 GMT -5
I’m sure they’ve mentioned Sonya’s sexuality without making a big thing of it, so her character is acknowledged on screen as gay, but don’t know if there are any male wrestlers acknowledged as being gay but it not being their defining characteristic. It’s kinda hard to make “I’m homosexual” your defining gimmick without going over the top. You could be a wrestling janitor who happens to be gay, but as soon as you go wrestling gay who happens to be a janitor it’s hard to not creep into a stereotype. I’m not sure if I phrased that well, what I’m trying to say is wrestling gimmicks are an idea turned into a caricature. And if your entire gimmick is “I’m homosexual”, you’re naturally gonna lean into the more stereotypes because they’re easy to get across to the audience. If you’re in normal wrestling gear, with no defined gimmick beyond “I’m gay” how do you get that across to the crowd without going over the top? You can’t, because it’s not a gimmick. It’s a character trait, I can be part of a gimmick but not the gimmick. Can you imagine showing up and being told “Here’s you black boots, black trunks, and your gimmick is you’re straight. Go out and make the audience know you’re straight, without mic time”. Well, basically they only way to do that would basically be an over the top stereotype of lecherous sleeze bag hitting on all the woman in the crowd, lose because you can’t keep your hands off your girl or valet, or have him try and kiss his opponents valet and cross into a questionable #MeToo area. Bi rather than gay by most accounts, but The Golden Lovers storyline shows you can craft a narrative around LGBT themes and have it be a nuanced part of a character. It's not Omega or Ibushi's entire gimmick, but it's something you can't just brush over or extricate from their narrative without completely wrecking the whole thing. Whereas I think the closest they've come to acknowledging Sonya is her wearing rainbow gear. I think that's more what we're aiming for rather than 'hey, paint us with broad stereotypes'. And what you described is much more of what I’d like to see them do. The Golden Lovers story was so well done, without being soapboxy yet still hammering home a message. I’d love to see WWE have a main event performer, who happens to be gay. He talks about his husband and children, just like Roman, or Styles or KO talk about their wife and kids. Don’t make a big deal of it, don’t use it for heel heat or face sympathy, don’t deify this guy for being gay, it’s 2019. People are gay, people are straight, people are lots of things and it really is about damn time that WWE realised that Being Gay isn’t a f***ing gimmick EDIT: Also, WWE, gay wrestlers can f***ing be heels!!! If you don’t make a big deal about their sexuality, then is doesn’t matter if you have a gay douchebag heel because they aren’t the “gay face of the company”. As long as being gay isn’t why they’re a heel, you can have gay heels!! Trans too!
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Chainsaw
T
A very BAD man.
It is what it is
Posts: 90,480
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Post by Chainsaw on Apr 2, 2019 18:30:25 GMT -5
Honestly, seeing this thread compared to how things are now, around here and socially online, actually heartens me quite a bit. Back then, it ranged from "Ewwww, no" to "LOL No upside to it, not worth the WWE's time." Now, the primary argument is "We can't trust the WWE to pull this off."
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,816
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Apr 2, 2019 18:40:31 GMT -5
Bi rather than gay by most accounts, but The Golden Lovers storyline shows you can craft a narrative around LGBT themes and have it be a nuanced part of a character. It's not Omega or Ibushi's entire gimmick, but it's something you can't just brush over or extricate from their narrative without completely wrecking the whole thing. Whereas I think the closest they've come to acknowledging Sonya is her wearing rainbow gear. I think that's more what we're aiming for rather than 'hey, paint us with broad stereotypes'. And what you described is much more of what I’d like to see them do. The Golden Lovers story was so well done, without being soapboxy yet still hammering home a message. I’d love to see WWE have a main event performer, who happens to be gay. He talks about his husband and children, just like Roman, or Styles or KO talk about their wife and kids. Don’t make a big deal of it, don’t use it for heel heat or face sympathy, don’t deify this guy for being gay, it’s 2019. People are gay, people are straight, people are lots of things and it really is about damn time that WWE realised that Being Gay isn’t a f***ing gimmick EDIT: Also, WWE, gay wrestlers can f***ing be heels!!! If you don’t make a big deal about their sexuality, then is doesn’t matter if you have a gay douchebag heel because they aren’t the “gay face of the company”. As long as being gay isn’t why they’re a heel, you can have gay heels!! Trans too! Ideally, yes. But when you have advertisers and stockholders, not so much.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 2, 2019 18:47:21 GMT -5
Wow, the response in that thread is f***ing disgusting. Especially all the casual slurs going around. I'll cop to my 'there's zero upside' response though I don't really remember what I was basing that on. I THINK I was probably thinking of societal views at the time (hell, my own views have evolved for the better over 11 years).
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Apr 2, 2019 18:47:41 GMT -5
WWE probably couldn’t make a drag queen character work. I have no hope for them signing a transgender worker. They still haven’t had an openly gay wrestler. But if theres someone in the indies getting a lot of buzz, I could see WWE inviting them to try out. Sonya Deville and Darren Young say hi.
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Chainsaw
T
A very BAD man.
It is what it is
Posts: 90,480
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Post by Chainsaw on Apr 2, 2019 19:07:24 GMT -5
I have to admit, the fact that I forgot that Sonya Deville was gay is probably a positive to how they've handled her. But I also haven't been watching a lot of WWE TV since she debuted, so that's probably a good reason why.
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Post by Display Name on Apr 2, 2019 20:26:48 GMT -5
I’m behind it, as long as it isn’t some pandering deal. AEW with their “Is For Everyone” stuff is absolute pandering.
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Post by Surfer Sandman on Apr 2, 2019 22:37:28 GMT -5
I don't trust the WWE with anything related to socio-political issues.
Though I am curious as to how well AEW will present Nyla Rose. At least they're trying something new.
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Post by Doctor No on Apr 3, 2019 1:49:41 GMT -5
With Prichard back in the picture, they are ready. 👍
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Apr 3, 2019 2:41:40 GMT -5
Kota Ibushi is gay???
I'm going to Japan right the f*** now.
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Post by Prince Petty on Apr 3, 2019 3:18:55 GMT -5
I have to admit, the fact that I forgot that Sonya Deville was gay is probably a positive to how they've handled her. But I also haven't been watching a lot of WWE TV since she debuted, so that's probably a good reason why. I don't think Sonya's sexuality has been mentioned one way or the other, on WWE TV. At least, not that I'm aware of. She's open about it on social media though, so it's not like there's any attempted denial by the company. And really, unless the wrestler is getting a romantic storyline, simply not mentioning whether someone is straight, gay, bi or other is probably the best way to handle it.
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Heartbreaker
King Koopa
Is actually Bindi Irwin
RIP Punk's media scrum, Page 54, Muffins, Biting People Bad™ (2022 - 2022)
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Post by Heartbreaker on Apr 3, 2019 3:53:26 GMT -5
The company is led by a rich, white and out of touch old man with certain political views... so they are are definitely not ready for it.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Apr 3, 2019 7:37:57 GMT -5
WWE could simply say "all our wrestlers, regardless of sex and gender are highly skilled athletes capable of competiting with each other" to deflect any male versus female criticism. It does seem to me that the most logical way to integrate transgender wrestlers would be to get rid of the divisions between sexes entirely, which I admit would probably lose me as a fan, simply because there are still certain boundaries of realism that if crossed, would kill my suspension of disbelief. I don't recall much opposition towards Chyna competing for the intercontinental and even the world title. I think.....that they want it to be like the wcw cruiserweight division where it is a strong focus on the show, but at any time, any of the cruiserweights can step up and compete for the main titles, but the big guys can't compete for their title. Problem of course that suggests their title isn't as important. But it does make me wonder, if one of the current WWE wrestlers changed gender, would the WWE allow them to wrestle in the other division? If one of them came out as transgender, would they only be allowed to compete in their desired division post surgery/hormone treatment? Or could they start competing as they are, without having to conform to societal stereotypes of what a man or woman should look like?
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Apr 3, 2019 7:50:01 GMT -5
It does seem to me that the most logical way to integrate transgender wrestlers would be to get rid of the divisions between sexes entirely, which I admit would probably lose me as a fan, simply because there are still certain boundaries of realism that if crossed, would kill my suspension of disbelief. I don't recall much opposition towards Chyna competing for the intercontinental and even the world title. I think.....that they want it to be like the wcw cruiserweight division where it is a strong focus on the show, but at any time, any of the cruiserweights can step up and compete for the main titles, but the big guys can't compete for their title. Problem of course that suggests their title isn't as important. But it does make me wonder, if one of the current WWE wrestlers changed gender, would the WWE allow them to wrestle in the other division? If one of them came out as transgender, would they only be allowed to compete in their desired division post surgery/hormone treatment? Or could they start competing as they are, without having to conform to societal stereotypes of what a man or woman should look like? Performing in front of WWE fans weekly while going through transition treatments sounds like a recipe for disaster. At least at this point in time. The transition would be stressful, and extremely mentally and emotionally taxing and you add in travel, the inevitable asshole fans giving you grief about it in person and online and just having to be in front of a crowd every night, it just seems like a recipe for a mental breakdown or worse for even the strongest of people.
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Crappler El 0 M
Dalek
Never Forgets an Octagon
I'm a good R-Truth.
Posts: 58,479
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Apr 3, 2019 7:59:27 GMT -5
I didn't follow the story closely, but WWE recently started casting for another women talent search competition, and I believe one of the women used or considered was a trans woman.
You're starting to see some trans wrestlers having success in some regions like ASUKA, Nyla Rose, and Candy Lee.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Apr 3, 2019 8:06:48 GMT -5
The company is led by a rich, white and out of touch old man with certain political views... so they are are definitely not ready for it. Because old white republicans couldn’t POSSIBLY be accepting of transpeople.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,816
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Apr 3, 2019 8:58:10 GMT -5
The company is led by a rich, white and out of touch old man with certain political views... so they are are definitely not ready for it. Because old white republicans couldn’t POSSIBLY be accepting of transpeople. *sigh*
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Apr 3, 2019 9:00:04 GMT -5
Please can we not get the thread locked?
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Apr 3, 2019 9:13:25 GMT -5
Because old white republicans couldn’t POSSIBLY be accepting of transpeople. *sigh* Sorry. I just feel its unfair to generalize like that in this day and age when we honestly don’t know Vince’s feelings on it. Only thing we know for sure is that the guy loves money.
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Post by edgestar on Apr 3, 2019 9:27:20 GMT -5
If you want to continue the discussion, political discussion stops, otherwise the thread gets locked.
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