Ring Of Honor is a Bitch

[Venti]

Apr 7, 2019 14:44:07 GMT -5 @jdogindy said:

Apr 7, 2019 13:36:16 GMT -5 carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) said:

It's weird, because people talk about ROH plenty... they get lots of buzz and ink. But now people are coming out of the woodwork to say they don't keep up with it and haven't for years. It's a weird state for a company to be in.

It's not that they don't have the talent, they just somehow make people not care. How on earth do they have people like Kenny King, Flip Gordon, Dalton Castle, PJ Black, Tracy Williams... and then throw them out there with nothing, or with something that is actively hateworthy? This roster is bookable.

And when people are talking about "What happened to Ring of Honor?! This isn't the Ring of Honor I knew!", I have to point out to people that the Ring of Honor they knew died years ago, and this slowly replaced it. It wasn't like a switch was flipped and suddenly ROH became garbage, as it did with WCW where people just got fed up with the same 4 or 5 people on top and their solution was to push those same 4 or 5 people harder. It's like The Simpsons. They didn't become a decrepit zombie overnight; the decay became gradual that you can actually pinpoint at certain points when the quality began to take a nosedive and why.

It started around the Clone Wars, right after they got rid of Jim Cornette and Sinclair bought the promotion. Delirious became head booker after they fired Adam Pearce a few months prior, and that's when they decided to that Eddie "Gimmicks Make Me Lamer" Edwards and Davey "Asshole" Richards was to be the company's focal point, and Davey was champion for just shy a year. The company then went into a "dark age", of sorts, where people online just didn't talk about Ring of Honor since they moved on to other indy federations. The UK scene was starting to get big again, New Japan had finally recovered from Inoki's MMA fetish, and of course, there was NXT to talk about. I believe it was because of the Clone Wars that a lot of wrestling fans distanced themselves from ROH and, until last night, forgot it was a thing and were surprised as to how far it fell; it was just that last night managed to fall off a freaking cliff that you assumed it was instantaneous. But it gets better... or worse. Your judgment will beg to differ.

I started watching ROH around 2016 during the brief period of time they had it on Comet TV, and this was during a very tough period of my life, when I had just lost my mother and was about to lose my oldest brother, so my memories of ROH are more vivid as a result. They had managed to find a spark after years of inactivity, thanks to an awful Jay Briscoe reign and a nothing-burger Jay Lethal reign (oh, how naïve we were...), as reDragon and the former Bad Influence (Kazarian and Daniels) were helping ROH get the company back to a level of respect. Unfortunately, another big act at the time was the Kingdom, and to remind people that Mike "Carl Buddig's too Exotic" Kanellis once led a faction that was a focal point in a promotion still amazes me. Seems like this may have been the time in which ROH could have been on the path to recovery after the Clone Wars and the aftermath, but... apparently not. I mean, look at Dalton Castle. People then talked about him possibly being a potential world champion in a few years back in 2016 (and, even though he did, Ring of Honor sure did him no favors on top, before making him drop it back to Jay Lethal and his second, even longer nothing-burger reign), and now, after last night, he's likely just going to be used as a midcard heel at best. This is going somewhere, I promise.

What I think is ultimately ROH's greatest failure is their fear of utilization. They're afraid of using people on the rise out of fear that another promotion (be it WWE, New Japan, or even AEW) will snatch them up, leaving them high and dry, which was why they always kept the belt on Jay Lethal, knowing he'd never leave, and is why they're entrusting the belt on Matt Taven, knowing no other promotion will have any interest in signing him away. People those promotions don't want or have used already and are of no use, however, ROH seems to be happy to use, and that only hurts their image. Why would you want to support a promotion that gladly will take somebody else's sloppy seconds, baggage and all?

Delirious became booker in September of 2010, and Sinclair bought ROH in January of 2011. That's a one-two punch of malaise, and considering that it seems that Sinclair is alright with the people on top of ROH, they're not going to change up anything, meaning expect more stupidity to be coming up in the future.

I think you definitely nailed it. I think for any promotion past or present, you could have some of the best wrestlers in the world, but if you do nothing to spark interest, people aren't going to watch.

From my standpoint, as someone who has at most been a casual fan of ROH, I went to a live show in late 2015. The part everyone was most excited for was Bullet Club. I think that's kind of an issue considering that was a New Japan thing. At the time, their biggest guy in the middle of a long title reign was Jay Lethal.
Well, after taking a break from wrestling for a while, I check back again in late 2018, and once again Lethal is champ in another everlasting reign. This makes me think "yawn, weren't they doing this three years ago?" And I say that as a fan of the guy.

I guess what I'm saying, is they don't seem to be giving anything that causes discussion of "hey, have you seen what they're doing on ROH? You gotta check it out"

It's a far cry from the old days when I first discovered them, when the matches back then were hailed as must see classics.

[darbus alan]

I still can't believe how far ROH has fallen over the years. You look at the talent they had 10 years ago and compared to now, it's like night and day. NJPW completely outclassed them and I don't think ROH is ever going to get an opportunity to run a venue like MSG ever again.

Wouldn't be surprised if NJPW ends its partnership with ROH once AEW gets up and running.

[Deleted]

I really think NJPW would be wise to ditch ROH at this point. The only things ROH is in theory useful for to them are production, which ROH is garbage at, and American appeal, which NJPW has more of by now than ROH does. The relationship's become something only benefiting ROH.

[Gus Richlen: Ruffian]

I stopped watching ROH a long time ago. My decision appears to have been justified.

[Deleted]

Apr 7, 2019 12:40:18 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

It's strange how the biggest show ROH has ever done may well also be their biggest mistake. This was their chance to really prove they still have it and they did anything but.

It feel similar to TNA first show against RAW, where they f*** it up by doing stupid mistakes.

[darbus alan]

Apr 7, 2019 15:59:37 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

I really think NJPW would be wise to ditch ROH at this point. The only things ROH is in theory useful for to them are production, which ROH is garbage at, and American appeal, which NJPW has more of by now than ROH does. The relationship's become something only benefiting ROH.

Yeah, NJPW likely could've sold out the Garden just by themselves. Heck, you can make the argument that New Japan is the second biggest wrestling promotion in the US right now.

[Deleted]

Apr 7, 2019 17:53:28 GMT -5 darbus alan said:

Apr 7, 2019 15:59:37 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

I really think NJPW would be wise to ditch ROH at this point. The only things ROH is in theory useful for to them are production, which ROH is garbage at, and American appeal, which NJPW has more of by now than ROH does. The relationship's become something only benefiting ROH.

Yeah, NJPW likely could've sold out the Garden just by themselves. Heck, you can make the argument that New Japan is the second biggest wrestling promotion in the US right now.

Until AEW get going properly, I don’t think it’s even an argument any more. Because it’s decidely not RoH or TNA anymore.

[HMARK Center]

So my initial reaction to the particularly pointed online criticisms of ROH's portion of last night's show was to feel like it was a bit of an overreaction; inside the arena the crowd really didn't crap on anything (except the spot with the guy who wrote the show's theme song), and my main critique was just that a couple of those early angles made the pacing of the show feel off because they dragged too much, nothing Earth shattering or show-ruining. Essentially it was mostly the first half of the card, so as long as it got to the second half I was content with getting to the fireworks factory. Beyond that I thought the ladder match was solid, that Villain Enterprises looked impressive, and that Jeff Cobb and Bandido are stars, so it wasn't like all was lost. I see people making WCW 2000 comparisons and it just feels a bit over the top based on what I sat through.

However, I've thought about it a bit more and a couple of things occurred to me that made the negative reaction a lot more understandable, even if the vibe in the building still seems to have clashed a good deal with the public's perception:

-The quality, or lack thereof, of the broadcast itself. Inside the arena we didn't have edited theme music, we didn't hear commentary, we only noticed the camera work if we had to look at the screens for any length of time, we didn't have to worry about muffled sounds outside of the inevitable sound issues if you're seated too high up, etc. If the broadcast itself was having problems with the audio, visuals, with not catching the crowd noise, or anything else, then it's understandable why there'd be a divide.

-The second thing that hit me was a lot more important, however.

NJPW made a big deal of this show - they replaced Sakura Genesis, one of their "big four" shows (well, not counting the end of G1 and other tournament final shows), with G1 Supercard this year, they built to it with the New Japan Cup, they had Hiroshi Tanahashi working overtime to use moves dedicated to his mentor Fujinami due to the historical connection he had withe the Garden, and they put everything into putting their stars over huge by putting them into hyped, marquee matches that felt like definitive conclusions to the current conflicts they were in, at least for the moment (e.g. I'm sure Okada and Jay will be crossing paths again, but this was Okada's revenge for Jay's treachery the past year-plus).

In other words, NJPW saw this show as the golden opportunity it was: a chance to send a message in WWE's old stomping ground, and to do it by allowing their best and brightest stars to engage in interesting matchups that clearly communicated their identity and mission statement as a promotion. They made sure to give it a happy ending, too, because that was the impression they wanted to leave on an audience that undoubtedly contained a number of people who might've only been casual NJPW fans before, or maybe had never even watched a show and simply wanted to see what the fuss was that had caused the Garden to sell out. In other words, if you didn't know New Japan before, you do now.

ROH...chose a different path. It's abundantly clear that somebody/bodies in their creative room decided it was more important to generate "buzz", to have people talking about something crazy that happened, and thus we got multiple heel turns, long set-ups and deliveries on promos, and a worked-shoot brawl that played off of Enzo's real life stupidity at Survivor Series awhile back.

Said it in the main thread, but in a vacuum, a lot of what ROH did storyline-wise was fine: Dalton snapping was a long time coming, Rush is still highly protected, Taven winning the title suits the story they're telling, etc. The problem is that shows don't exist in a vacuum: this card happened Wrestlemania weekend, at MSG, with more eyes on ROH's product than there may have ever been during a live PPV broadcast, and rather than put their best foot forward and say "Here's who we are and what we're al about, and we're not afraid to let our top wrestlers shout it to the world through their actions", they overbooked things and tried to "trend" rather than letting their mission statement speak for itself.

I'm not going to say there isn't a time and place to do things like multiple heel turns or even a decently done worked shoot now and then (emphasis on well booked ones), but if there was any card to do those things on, this one was not it. ROH is in a rebuilding phase right now, and that's fine, but when you're rebuilding you can't go story-heavy and expect an arena of 20,000 people, most of whom probably came to see NJPW and not you explicitly, to get what's going on and have a response to it.

Like, I can just about guarantee you that a ton of the crowd likely didn't know who Haskins was during the 6-man brawl. That's no good; you're running a show in front of a whole new audience, you have to introduce them to your talent. NJPW has the luxury of being more well known, so they don't have to do that, yet they still approached this card in that manner - you could be a brand new NJPW viewer, but with the way they presented their matches last night you'd still mostly know what was going on based on the video packages, the physical stories told, etc.

ROH should have run a few strong, representative matches: make Rush vs. Castle a legit match, clean up the overbooked stuff around the 6-man brawl, hell, make that match a 6-man from the get go so the lesser known guys could get promo time and a chance to make sure the crowd knows who they are, and I'll bet you even money that the response today would've been many times better; they'd still have been overshadowed by NJPW, sure, but the overall narrative for them would be much improved.

All in all it's really too bad: ROH's PPV's tend to be pretty good, in my book, not amazing, but solid. If they had stuck with the type of matches that give them solid PPVs, this would've been an unvarnished success, but instead they showed a lack of faith in the type of wrestling that brought them to the dance in the first place.

[Chainsaw]

I keep watching these threads to see if Ian comes back and to see what his reaction is going to be, but I think he isn't coming back.

[2coldMack is even more baffled]

The thing that flummoxes me, that REALLY f***ing confuses me, is the Big Cass/Enzo thing. Like, that is so the least ROH thing they could have possibly done on this stage. And that's not necessarily a shot at Enzo and Cass. They have assets to offer, but they don't fit the mold. They don't say "THIS is what we are", which is what this show should have been about.

[Deleted]

Matt Taven is garbage.

[MrElijah]

Apr 7, 2019 9:34:51 GMT -5 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger said:

Apr 7, 2019 9:03:23 GMT -5 @returnofthestryker said:

I didn't see the matches so can't say for sure, but I think you might be forgetting how bad Enzo and Cass were with WWE agents laying everything out for them. In a freer environment without that....yeesh.

Im aware. I also saw Beer City Bruiser.

Beer City Bruiser sounds like a guy who jobs to Alex Wright on WCW Saturday Night.

[xxshoyuweeniexx]

Apr 8, 2019 14:11:10 GMT -5 2coldMack is even more baffled said:

The thing that flummoxes me, that REALLY f***ing confuses me, is the Big Cass/Enzo thing. Like, that is so the least ROH thing they could have possibly done on this stage. And that's not necessarily a shot at Enzo and Cass. They have assets to offer, but they don't fit the mold. They don't say "THIS is what we are", which is what this show should have been about.

This and the entire ROH portion of the show reeked of TNA when instead of being unique and putting their best foot forward, they decide to be cheap WWE knockoff with shitty finishes, bad matches, and ex-WWE guys being a focal point.

I can’t believe we’ve reached the point where ROH is a worse version of TNA, but we’re here.

[honsou]

ROH kinda screwed themselves with the exclusive contract stuff. They were a lot better off bringing in loads of indie talent, letting them do their thing and then when they left they left. Its only now that they are starting to pay a decent amount of money but its probably too late and they are getting desperate. ROH basically screwed themselves by getting away from their origin and just trying to be a knockoff TNA

[HMARK Center]

Apr 8, 2019 14:11:10 GMT -5 2coldMack is even more baffled said:

The thing that flummoxes me, that REALLY f***ing confuses me, is the Big Cass/Enzo thing. Like, that is so the least ROH thing they could have possibly done on this stage. And that's not necessarily a shot at Enzo and Cass. They have assets to offer, but they don't fit the mold. They don't say "THIS is what we are", which is what this show should have been about.

Right - MSG, during Mania weekend, with probably a ton of new and returning eyes on your product was not the time for doing something weird like this. Weekly TV, or even a more normal PPV? Sure, since the people watching those are your regular fans, they're presumably already into what you're doing. But this, in what's supposed to be your coming out party? That's a misread of the room. Said it in another thread, but I remember hearing Bully Ray on XM radio talking about ROH needing to embrace some "risk taking" and edginess, basically, to capitalize on the MSG show, and I have to think he had a lot of input on this stuff (given that Velvet is with him and that he was involved with the Enzo/Cass situation).

When it comes to exclusive contracts, I kind of agree; ROH is in a weird position where they can't pay what WWE, AEW, or NJPW can pay for full time work, but they want to have some exclusive talent given that they're bigger than, say, MLW or Impact.

However, where I think it shouldn't be a problem is that a lot of those guys on contract should be enough to book a really strong card around. Rush and Bandido aren't working anywhere else in the US, nor is Juice Robinson, Castle is a strong presence, Williams and Haskins are great talents, Villain Enterprises is top notch, Cobb is a star, Flip is over, even the Kingdom has something to offer, if they have Gresham around more often he'll do great things, and you've got your standbys like Lethal and the Briscoes who are reliable for them...with a stable like that there's no reason for a bunch of those guys to feel unimportant going into your biggest show ever. Hell, I even like Silas and his Milwaukee guys, they're not going to put on any clinics but I like the throwback style now and then, they do have something to offer in the midcard. Put them all together and you've got enough talent to compete with most other promotions in the States right now if you can create a hook, angle, or style that adds to what's already there.

If the fear they have is that these guys doing too well will lead to them leaving for greener pastures, then, uh...you're not going to grow very much. At the same time groups like GCW, MLW, and others are generating some fun buzz around the industry because they don't limit their talent pool, they're not afraid of cooperating with one another, and they use different talents in different ways depending on the show being booked. In today's internet age people aren't particularly keen on exclusivity to begin with, but if you're going to keep guys under exclusive/limited contracts then you have to dedicate yourself to making them look like stars before you get to the biggest card in company history. I get that the Elite guys leaving was a big blow since MSG was booked while they were still on the roster, but why should that stop you from making something special out of what was available to you? Don't go for shock value, don't go for angles that prolong an already long card, just give the people a show with purpose and stakes.

But I guess a lot of this comes down to Delirious being worn out as booker. Not all of his tenure has been bad or anything, and hey, good to see that Cobb and Rush are being highly protected, but I can't help but wonder if ROH is stuck in some weird grey zone in recent times where they're not really pushing boundaries in the industry, and thus they're not building enough of their own brand identity or making enough of their current talent feel like stars. It was easier for ROH to have an identity when it was the only major indy player on the scene, but times have changed, so just being "another decent wrestling show" isn't going to cut it, but going toward that kind of sports entertainment stuff isn't the answer, either.

[corndog]

Apr 7, 2019 17:53:28 GMT -5 darbus alan said:

Apr 7, 2019 15:59:37 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

I really think NJPW would be wise to ditch ROH at this point. The only things ROH is in theory useful for to them are production, which ROH is garbage at, and American appeal, which NJPW has more of by now than ROH does. The relationship's become something only benefiting ROH.

Yeah, NJPW likely could've sold out the Garden just by themselves. Heck, you can make the argument that New Japan is the second biggest wrestling promotion in the US right now.

I think what could happen here is New Japan stays with ROH just a little longer until they have their own base of operations in the US and then just run solo in the states. The reason I think AEW won't happen is I doubt New Japan wants to be at the mercy of the Elite. Although, I could see Kenny and Jericho coming back again for some dream matches.

[HMARK Center]

Apr 8, 2019 19:25:43 GMT -5 corndog said:

Apr 7, 2019 17:53:28 GMT -5 darbus alan said:

Yeah, NJPW likely could've sold out the Garden just by themselves. Heck, you can make the argument that New Japan is the second biggest wrestling promotion in the US right now.

I think what could happen here is New Japan stays with ROH just a little longer until they have their own base of operations in the US and then just run solo in the states. The reason I think AEW won't happen is I doubt New Japan wants to be at the mercy of the Elite. Although, I could see Kenny and Jericho coming back again for some dream matches.

Much as I agree that NJPW likely wants to get its own operations off the ground stateside, I still think they'll try and keep up some kind of US-based alliance to maintain an excursion destination for young lions.

[Deleted]

Apr 8, 2019 16:50:12 GMT -5 honsou said:

ROH kinda screwed themselves with the exclusive contract stuff. They were a lot better off bringing in loads of indie talent, letting them do their thing and then when they left they left. Its only now that they are starting to pay a decent amount of money but its probably too late and they are getting desperate. ROH basically screwed themselves by getting away from their origin and just trying to be a knockoff TNA

It could've worked too if ROH had done a better job maintaining the spirit of what they used to be, then at least the contrast would feed into Cass and Enzo's heat in a more productive way. The way things are right now, they're kind of on that cusp where they're not irredeemable, but they're definitely coming off as being out of touch as it is and bringing on board a TNA stable and two exiled WWE guys isn't an encouraging sign.

[Convoy]

It comes down to loyalty, as Japanese business practices are known to be based on respect and honesty. That's why the NOAH/NJPW relationship was ended with bad blood on both sides.

That being said, ROH clearly withheld information from New Japan which was seen as a disrespectful move to both their office and wrestlers. So the door is open for New Japan to not seek an extension on the partnership once all titles are returned.

[Allie Kitsune]

Apr 8, 2019 20:23:52 GMT -5 Convoy said:

It comes down to loyalty, as Japanese business practices are known to be based on respect and honesty. That's why the NOAH/NJPW relationship was ended with bad blood on both sides.

That being said, ROH clearly withheld information from New Japan which was seen as a disrespectful move to both their office and wrestlers. So the door is open for New Japan to not seek an extension on the partnership once all titles are returned.

Then there's the CMLL factor.

If CMLL stays allied with RoH, then NJPW probably sticks around longer.

AEW is allied with AAA, so that's a fly in the ointment there.

NJPW is going to stay loyal to CMLL, so in a way, they might be in the driver's seat on this.