|
Post by ianriccaboni on Apr 10, 2019 14:23:03 GMT -5
I keep watching these threads to see if Ian comes back and to see what his reaction is going to be, but I think he isn't coming back. I'm still here! I don't wade into creative discussions, though, as sort of a general rule. Was an amazing event to be a part of. I don't share many of the same sentiments in this thread and I, along with my fellow ROH folks, share a very optimistic view of both our short term and long term future, particularly as it relates to not only our product but our relationships with NJPW, CMLL, and RevPro.
|
|
Wieners=$$$
Hank Scorpio
Gif Master Extraordinaire
I Miss You Peanut😥
Posts: 6,414
|
Post by Wieners=$$$ on Apr 10, 2019 19:41:58 GMT -5
I'm going to play a devil's advocate and say, this was a good showing for ROH. Many of you have come out and said that you haven't watched ROH for "years" and only watched this PPV for NJPW, and yet, despite your criticisms, this thread is still being discussed five days later. Here's a hot-take; maybe this is exactly what ROH wanted.
One of ROH's biggest criticisms over the last several years is that they play things too safe. I believe since their partnership with NJPW, they have had this crutch of being affiliated with the #2 promotion in the world. Now that both companies have had the biggest show they could possibly hope for, why continue the partnership? They can still share talent without being directly affiliated and running duel shows. At this point, NJPW doesn't need ROH to do well in the states, and ROH just created more than enough buzz for themselves to carry them through this year, and into the future.
This brings me to the biggest critism being thrown down; the Enzo and Cass angle. I know I'm going to receive flack for this, but you know what, I like this for two reasons. The first being, that if NJPW honestly didn't know this angle was happening, then it is more reason for the two companies to slowly split from each other. The second reason is that ROH truly lacks drama, and you know where drama comes from? Great antagonists. I can't think of greater antagonists to all that ROH stands for than Enzo Amore and Cass. They are the antithsist to all that ROH was founded on. However, let me ask all of you this question, do any of you remember how the first show of ROH began? It was a crap shoot of controversy and great wrestling. Hell the Christopher-Street Connection were beat down by Da Hit Squad. Pretty controversial in 2003 to have two gay wrestlers get the shit kicked out of them for making out in the ring. Enzo, specifically is a wrestler who lives the gimmick, and isn't afraid to take chances. One may argue that he's only in it for himself, but I argue that his brand is just what American wrestling has lacked for too long; chaos. Say what you want, but he reminds me of a mid-90's Brian Pillman. If he, and Cass, can better themselves in-ring, then ROH has a gold-mine in their pocket.
To all of you who have claimed that ROH has played it too safe, and that they don't "pull the trigger," this is them answering the critics. They just dropped a nuke of chaos by using their biggest show ever as the launch-pad. No, this wasn't them "shitting the bed." To me, this is them taking stock of the future of American wrestling.
ROH has survived numerous controversies over nearly 2 decades. They have been stripped of talent more times than I can remember. They are now being threatened by a new brand in AEW, where almost half of their talent have gone in a blink of an eye. ROH has always had the talent, but they have lacked the ambition. This show was them telling the wrestling world, we have survived worse and we're ready to go to war.
|
|
|
Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Apr 10, 2019 19:48:44 GMT -5
Somebody just mentioned Enzo Amore and Brian Pillman in the same f***ing sentence. That's the greatest argument that I've ever heard for shutting this board down.
In a more serious reply to the above: If the best statement of intent ROH, the "pure wrestling company"(and that has ALWAYS been their brand) can come up with to say "Here we come f***ers!" is two guys who need 5 hours and a 20 point diagram to figure out how to put on a hammerlock, then they're f***ed. Period.
|
|
Wieners=$$$
Hank Scorpio
Gif Master Extraordinaire
I Miss You Peanut😥
Posts: 6,414
|
Post by Wieners=$$$ on Apr 10, 2019 20:11:48 GMT -5
Somebody just mentioned Enzo Amore and Brian Pillman in the same f***ing sentence. That's the greatest argument that I've ever heard for shutting this board down.
In a more serious reply to the above: If the best statement of intent ROH, the "pure wrestling company"(and that has ALWAYS been their brand) can come up with to say "Here we come f***ers!" is two guys who need 5 hours and a 20 point diagram to figure out how to put on a hammerlock, then they're f***ed. Period.
Why do they have to fit the "ROH" mold? I think the point I made was that they are the perfect antagonist to all "pure-wrestling" stands for. They are great examples of sports-entertainers invading. They have clearly created buzz. There is a saying that the only bad-press, is no-press.
|
|
|
Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Apr 10, 2019 20:17:29 GMT -5
Somebody just mentioned Enzo Amore and Brian Pillman in the same f***ing sentence. That's the greatest argument that I've ever heard for shutting this board down.
In a more serious reply to the above: If the best statement of intent ROH, the "pure wrestling company"(and that has ALWAYS been their brand) can come up with to say "Here we come f***ers!" is two guys who need 5 hours and a 20 point diagram to figure out how to put on a hammerlock, then they're f***ed. Period.
Why do they have to fit the "ROH" mold? I think the point I made was that they are the perfect antagonist to all "pure-wrestling" stands for. They are great examples of sports-entertainers invading. They have clearly created buzz. There is a saying that the only bad-press, is no-press. Nah, people shitting all over your show is bad press. Period. Nobody's talking about "Man, I wonder what Enzo and Cass are gonna do in ROH?", they're saying "That was f***ing stupid" across the board. This was ROH's chance to show a larger audience what they were in the most legendary venue in the business. Instead they put literally their worst foot forward. It was a bad move, and no amount of "Well, they're talking about it!" Russo-logic fixes that.
|
|
Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,930
|
Post by Mozenrath on Apr 10, 2019 20:22:52 GMT -5
I will say that I think it's unfair to expect 2019 ROH to be just like 2007 ROH. Times changed, even if Austin Aries, for example, can't seem to grasp that.
That said, I do hope they figure out their place in the world, because the wrestling landscape would be poorer if they don't.
|
|
Wieners=$$$
Hank Scorpio
Gif Master Extraordinaire
I Miss You Peanut😥
Posts: 6,414
|
Post by Wieners=$$$ on Apr 10, 2019 20:24:13 GMT -5
Why do they have to fit the "ROH" mold? I think the point I made was that they are the perfect antagonist to all "pure-wrestling" stands for. They are great examples of sports-entertainers invading. They have clearly created buzz. There is a saying that the only bad-press, is no-press. Nah, people shitting all over your show is bad press. Period. Nobody's talking about "Man, I wonder what Enzo and Cass are gonna do in ROH?", they're saying "That was f***ing stupid" across the board. This was ROH's chance to show a larger audience what they were in the most legendary venue in the business. Instead they put literally their worst foot forward. It was a bad move, and no amount of "Well, they're talking about it!" Russo-logic fixes that. Agree to disagree, but I think many people miss chaos in their wrestling. All In proved this in a way by going to extremes, ie the Joey Ryan segment. Things are too safe, IMO, and maybe, instead of ROH continuing to do the "same thing" and "playing it safe," this is them taking a risk that again, despite what many here have claimed, has created buzz.
|
|
|
Post by Starshine on Apr 10, 2019 20:29:12 GMT -5
Somebody just mentioned Enzo Amore and Brian Pillman in the same f***ing sentence. That's the greatest argument that I've ever heard for shutting this board down.
In a more serious reply to the above: If the best statement of intent ROH, the "pure wrestling company"(and that has ALWAYS been their brand) can come up with to say "Here we come f***ers!" is two guys who need 5 hours and a 20 point diagram to figure out how to put on a hammerlock, then they're f***ed. Period.
Why do they have to fit the "ROH" mold? I think the point I made was that they are the perfect antagonist to all "pure-wrestling" stands for. They are great examples of sports-entertainers invading. They have clearly created buzz. There is a saying that the only bad-press, is no-press. Except ROH isn’t the pure wrestling company anymore. Hasn’t been for years. That argument doesn’t work when part of the top of the company’s card involves guys like Matt Taven and his balloon guy. Also when you say fans criticized ROH for consistently failing to pull the trigger. But I think you misunderstand what that meant. Almost from the beginning the company has had a problem getting fully behind top tier talents when they were at their peak. For example it happened with Nigel McGuinness, Tyler Black, Davey Richards, and Michael Elgin to make a few. What it led to were these guys reaching headlining status at a point where a notable chunk of the fan base was tired of them, leading into lackluster runs, and fan base frustration. Them getting behind guys like Bully Ray, The Beautiful People, Matt Taven, Kenny King, Jay Lethal,The Briscoes, et al. isn’t them being bold. It’s the same sort of shit they’ve been pushing for the last few years. Stalwarts and past superstars, not exciting new guys who can generate buzz and excitement. It’s just them being completely complacent. Part of the criticism also stemmed from their over reliance on New Japan and the Elite in headlining acts since The exodus of talent left a gaping hole in their homegrown draws. Adding guys like Enzo, Cass and the Beautiful People is just more of the same as that, but comes off as even more desperate. Especially when you consider the baggage the former two carry, and the nepotism involved in seemingly booking Velvet Sky and Mandy Leon over more talented women. Could these guys do positive business for ROH? Maybe. But they could do good business with a lot of people if they really wanted to. A lot of this just makes them look low rent, and like any other car crash, I’d why people keep talking about it. It’s not the sort of talk any company should want following what could very well be the biggest show they ever run.
|
|
Wieners=$$$
Hank Scorpio
Gif Master Extraordinaire
I Miss You Peanut😥
Posts: 6,414
|
Post by Wieners=$$$ on Apr 10, 2019 20:50:47 GMT -5
Why do they have to fit the "ROH" mold? I think the point I made was that they are the perfect antagonist to all "pure-wrestling" stands for. They are great examples of sports-entertainers invading. They have clearly created buzz. There is a saying that the only bad-press, is no-press. Except ROH isn’t the pure wrestling company anymore. Hasn’t been for years. That argument doesn’t work when part of the top of the company’s card involves guys like Matt Taven and his balloon guy. Also when you say fans criticized ROH for consistently failing to pull the trigger. But I think you misunderstand what that meant. Almost from the beginning the company has had a problem getting fully behind top tier talents when they were at their peak. For example it happened with Nigel McGuinness, Tyler Black, Davey Richards, and Michael Elgin to make a few. What it led to were these guys reaching headlining status at a point where a notable chunk of the fan base was tired of them, leading into lackluster runs, and fan base frustration. Them getting behind guys like Bully Ray, The Beautiful People, Matt Taven, Kenny King, Jay Lethal,The Briscoes, et al. isn’t them being bold. It’s the same sort of shit they’ve been pushing for the last few years. Stalwarts and past superstars, not exciting new guys who can generate buzz and excitement. It’s just them being completely complacent. Part of the criticism also stemmed from their over reliance on New Japan and the Elite in headlining acts since The exodus of talent left a gaping hole in their homegrown draws. Adding guys like Enzo, Cass and the Beautiful People is just more of the same as that, but comes off as even more desperate. Especially when you consider the baggage the former two carry, and the nepotism involved in seemingly booking Velvet Sky and Mandy Leon over more talented women. Could these guys do positive business for ROH? Maybe. But they could do good business with a lot of people if they really wanted to. A lot of this just makes them look low rent, and like any other car crash, I’d why people keep talking about it. It’s not the sort of talk any company should want following what could very well be the biggest show they ever run. Again, I understand fully how safe ROH has played things. I have seen the reigns of Black, Richards, Elgin, etc. go sideways, because of the whole "they didn't pull the trigger" aregument. I have made the same criticism of the company relying on the crutch of NJPW throughout the 2010s. ROH has, and will always be, a place wrestling fans can go to enjoy wrestling, and the G1 Supercard didn't really discredit this ideal. Osprey v. Cobb was good, the tag match was enjoyable, the ladder match was good (so what if Taven won!), and yet many are claiming ROH's showing was terrible. It wasn't, and it has now opened the door for some interesting possibilities going into the future. I will admit, maybe the whole thing was out of desperation, but I am an optimist and I have seen ROH suffer through worse, and survive by producing a great wrestling product for almost 20 years.
|
|
|
Post by Starshine on Apr 10, 2019 21:15:38 GMT -5
Except ROH isn’t the pure wrestling company anymore. Hasn’t been for years. That argument doesn’t work when part of the top of the company’s card involves guys like Matt Taven and his balloon guy. Also when you say fans criticized ROH for consistently failing to pull the trigger. But I think you misunderstand what that meant. Almost from the beginning the company has had a problem getting fully behind top tier talents when they were at their peak. For example it happened with Nigel McGuinness, Tyler Black, Davey Richards, and Michael Elgin to make a few. What it led to were these guys reaching headlining status at a point where a notable chunk of the fan base was tired of them, leading into lackluster runs, and fan base frustration. Them getting behind guys like Bully Ray, The Beautiful People, Matt Taven, Kenny King, Jay Lethal,The Briscoes, et al. isn’t them being bold. It’s the same sort of shit they’ve been pushing for the last few years. Stalwarts and past superstars, not exciting new guys who can generate buzz and excitement. It’s just them being completely complacent. Part of the criticism also stemmed from their over reliance on New Japan and the Elite in headlining acts since The exodus of talent left a gaping hole in their homegrown draws. Adding guys like Enzo, Cass and the Beautiful People is just more of the same as that, but comes off as even more desperate. Especially when you consider the baggage the former two carry, and the nepotism involved in seemingly booking Velvet Sky and Mandy Leon over more talented women. Could these guys do positive business for ROH? Maybe. But they could do good business with a lot of people if they really wanted to. A lot of this just makes them look low rent, and like any other car crash, I’d why people keep talking about it. It’s not the sort of talk any company should want following what could very well be the biggest show they ever run. Again, I understand fully how safe ROH has played things. I have seen the reigns of Black, Richards, Elgin, etc. go sideways, because of the whole "they didn't pull the trigger" aregument. I have made the same criticism of the company relying on the crutch of NJPW throughout the 2010s. ROH has, and will always be, a place wrestling fans can go to enjoy wrestling, and the G1 Supercard didn't really discredit this ideal. Osprey v. Cobb was good, the tag match was enjoyable, the ladder match was good (so what if Taven won!), and yet many are claiming ROH's showing was terrible. It wasn't, and it has now opened the door for some interesting possibilities going into the future. I will admit, maybe the whole thing was out of desperation, but I am an optimist and I have seen ROH suffer through worse, and survive by producing a great wrestling product for almost 20 years. Thing is, ROH almost went out of business before Sinclair stepped into the scene. It wasn't anything they did themselves that turned the flow so much as getting the stability of that corporation behind them, and a network to produce revenue along with it. So their inability to have their finger on the pulse of the fanbase hurt them a lot. No, they're probably not at risk of ever being in that same position again, but there's also never any guarantee that Sinclair won't drop them if a better alternative appears. Bottom line is, their booking has hindered them in the long run. The New Japan relationship did help them significantly. But if most of their business model still relies on New Japan, what's the point of ROH? Also if the day comes where New Japan decides they don't need them anymore, where are they then? Fact is, there's no way they'd sell out MSG on their own. They needed to hit a home run and show everyone what ROH is about, and why everyone should be excited for it. What excited you about this show obviously doesn't do the same for a lot of other people. For contrast, Man Up in 2007, with the Age of the Fall debut got positive buzz and people talking about where things were going. This last weekend, the majority of talk became: "what were they thinking, and why did they do that?" Optimism is great, I'm not saying you should feel bad about it. But even you admitted there are possible problems going on in the company. We both want them to succeed, but I'm not going to give them an out and say it was good enough, when I know they can do better. That's ultimately my problem.
|
|
Wieners=$$$
Hank Scorpio
Gif Master Extraordinaire
I Miss You Peanut😥
Posts: 6,414
|
Post by Wieners=$$$ on Apr 10, 2019 21:24:02 GMT -5
Again, I understand fully how safe ROH has played things. I have seen the reigns of Black, Richards, Elgin, etc. go sideways, because of the whole "they didn't pull the trigger" aregument. I have made the same criticism of the company relying on the crutch of NJPW throughout the 2010s. ROH has, and will always be, a place wrestling fans can go to enjoy wrestling, and the G1 Supercard didn't really discredit this ideal. Osprey v. Cobb was good, the tag match was enjoyable, the ladder match was good (so what if Taven won!), and yet many are claiming ROH's showing was terrible. It wasn't, and it has now opened the door for some interesting possibilities going into the future. I will admit, maybe the whole thing was out of desperation, but I am an optimist and I have seen ROH suffer through worse, and survive by producing a great wrestling product for almost 20 years. Thing is, ROH almost went out of business before Sinclair stepped into the scene. It wasn't anything they did themselves that turned the flow so much as getting the stability of that corporation behind them, and a network to produce revenue along with it. So their inability to have their finger on the pulse of the fanbase hurt them a lot. No, they're probably not at risk of ever being in that same position again, but there's also never any guarantee that Sinclair won't drop them if a better alternative appears. Bottom line is, their booking has hindered them in the long run. The New Japan relationship did help them significantly. But if most of their business model still relies on New Japan, what's the point of ROH? Also if the day comes where New Japan decides they don't need them anymore, where are they then? Fact is, there's no way they'd sell out MSG on their own. They needed to hit a home run and show everyone what ROH is about, and why everyone should be excited for it. What excited you about this show obviously doesn't do the same for a lot of other people. For contrast, Man Up in 2007, with the Age of the Fall debut got positive buzz and people talking about where things were going. This last weekend, the majority of talk became: "what were they thinking, and why did they do that?" Optimism is great, I'm not saying you should feel bad about it. But even you admitted there are possible problems going on in the company. We both want them to succeed, but I'm not going to give them an out and say it was good enough, when I know they can do better. That's ultimately my problem. Again, I have already stated that NJPW was ROH's crutch. I have already stated that both don't need each other going forward, except for displaying up-and-coming talent. My reasoning is that ROH already had the stink of being NJPW "bitch" long before this show was even a possiblility. The fans that watched and attended knew who ROH was, and many came for NJPW. To my earlier point, this was ROH taking a risk on the biggest stage they could have hoped for by using the popularity of NJPW to get them there. The partnership has peaked, time to think about the future, and I like the looks of ROH's future.
|
|
4TheGlory
Vegeta
The Fun One At Parties
Posts: 9,754
|
Post by 4TheGlory on Apr 10, 2019 21:27:56 GMT -5
I keep watching these threads to see if Ian comes back and to see what his reaction is going to be, but I think he isn't coming back. I'm still here! I don't wade into creative discussions, though, as sort of a general rule. Was an amazing event to be a part of. I don't share many of the same sentiments in this thread and I, along with my fellow ROH folks, share a very optimistic view of both our short term and long term future, particularly as it relates to not only our product but our relationships with NJPW, CMLL, and RevPro. A little off topic, but i noticed throughout the night the announcing team was saying around/over 20,000 in regards to the fans in attendance, when apparently the attendance ended up being in the mid 16,000 range. Were you guys getting fed the wrong number or was 20,000 just a guess everyone seemed to have , as the place was obviously packed. Also will ROH be releasing any kind of information on what kind of gate the event drew?
|
|
4TheGlory
Vegeta
The Fun One At Parties
Posts: 9,754
|
Post by 4TheGlory on Apr 10, 2019 21:32:56 GMT -5
Now to the topic at hand. As someone who was at Supercard of Honor last year in New Orleans and experienced the extreme pride everyone in that building had with little ole ROH drawing 6,000 people i was a little disturbed to read the fan's reactions to this year's show with an even bigger crowd at a historic venue.
So I watched the entire show on Honor Club and honestly, I was still more entertained by that show then a massive majority of the WWE product i've seen the past few years. The lows were bad, but i found them way less frequent and show killing as i am reading in the threads describing the event. The good absolutely out weighed the bad in my opinion. Let's hope ROH learns from any mistakes from this event and has a chance to right those wrongs in the future at other larger events. I am not ready to completely disregard and bury ROH as dead based on that show.
|
|
|
Post by Starshine on Apr 10, 2019 21:33:58 GMT -5
I'm still here! I don't wade into creative discussions, though, as sort of a general rule. Was an amazing event to be a part of. I don't share many of the same sentiments in this thread and I, along with my fellow ROH folks, share a very optimistic view of both our short term and long term future, particularly as it relates to not only our product but our relationships with NJPW, CMLL, and RevPro. A little off topic, but i noticed throughout the night the announcing team was saying around/over 20,000 in regards to the fans in attendance, when apparently the attendance ended up being in the mid 16,000 range. Were you guys getting fed the wrong number or was 20,000 just a guess everyone seemed to have , as the place was obviously packed. Also will ROH be releasing any kind of information on what kind of gate the event drew? New Japan has released it if you want a primary source. That's where the 16k gate number comes from. www.njpw.co.jp/tornament/183901?showResult=1
|
|
4TheGlory
Vegeta
The Fun One At Parties
Posts: 9,754
|
Post by 4TheGlory on Apr 10, 2019 21:35:05 GMT -5
A little off topic, but i noticed throughout the night the announcing team was saying around/over 20,000 in regards to the fans in attendance, when apparently the attendance ended up being in the mid 16,000 range. Were you guys getting fed the wrong number or was 20,000 just a guess everyone seemed to have , as the place was obviously packed. Also will ROH be releasing any kind of information on what kind of gate the event drew? New Japan has released it if you want a primary source. That's where the 16k gate number comes from. www.njpw.co.jp/tornament/183901?showResult=1I do respect that NJPW does not kayfabe their attendance figures. Any other company would be claiming 55,000 people at their WK shows at the Dome.
|
|
|
Post by Starshine on Apr 10, 2019 21:45:24 GMT -5
I do respect that NJPW does not kayfabe their attendance figures. Any other company would be claiming 55,000 people at their WK shows at the Dome. They definitely used to. But they seem genuine now ever since they announced that was changing a couple of years ago.
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Apr 10, 2019 22:18:02 GMT -5
Now to the topic at hand. As someone who was at Supercard of Honor last year in New Orleans and experienced the extreme pride everyone in that building had with little ole ROH drawing 6,000 people i was a little disturbed to read the fan's reactions to this year's show with an even bigger crowd at a historic venue. So I watched the entire show on Honor Club and honestly, I was still more entertained by that show then a massive majority of the WWE product i've seen the past few years. The lows were bad, but i found them way less frequent and show killing as i am reading in the threads describing the event. The good absolutely out weighed the bad in my opinion. Let's hope ROH learns from any mistakes from this event and has a chance to right those wrongs in the future at other larger events. I am not ready to completely disregard and bury ROH as dead based on that show. From being there live I do agree that the lows were never enough to kill the buzz in the building, not even close, and that ROH's output for the show wasn't some kind of wrestling abomination or anything. I think the issue is more ROH going so out of character for such a big showcase show, and how it made them look pretty small time next to NJPW, since New Japan went balls to the wall in terms of talent, marquee matches, and match quality. Against that backdrop (plus what I keep hearing are some annoying broadcast quality issues) it just takes ROH doing something kind of lackluster...again, not bad, per se, but lackluster...and makes it look much worse because of the circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by cabbageboy on Apr 10, 2019 22:28:11 GMT -5
Here's the thing about Enzo and Cass. Bringing them in is just not a typical ROH move. It's a total TNA move. In a way I'm proud of Impact for not taking that bait and bringing in two worthless bums. There's so much wrong with the Enzo/Cass act it isn't even funny. First off, at this point they'll have to be hated heels but the only semi competent match they know how to do is Enzo playing face in peril, hot tag to Cass.
The funny thing is that Enzo is considered some sort of great talker and I have yet to see any recorded evidence of it. He was nothing but bad shtick that wore thin after a few times hearing it. When he actually did attempt a legit promo he mostly rambled and sucked. I do usually attempt to watch ROH but if I see nothing but Enzo rambling on ROH TV then I'll look for something else to watch.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2019 22:36:35 GMT -5
Except ROH isn’t the pure wrestling company anymore. Hasn’t been for years. That argument doesn’t work when part of the top of the company’s card involves guys like Matt Taven and his balloon guy. Also when you say fans criticized ROH for consistently failing to pull the trigger. But I think you misunderstand what that meant. Almost from the beginning the company has had a problem getting fully behind top tier talents when they were at their peak. For example it happened with Nigel McGuinness, Tyler Black, Davey Richards, and Michael Elgin to make a few. What it led to were these guys reaching headlining status at a point where a notable chunk of the fan base was tired of them, leading into lackluster runs, and fan base frustration. Them getting behind guys like Bully Ray, The Beautiful People, Matt Taven, Kenny King, Jay Lethal,The Briscoes, et al. isn’t them being bold. It’s the same sort of shit they’ve been pushing for the last few years. Stalwarts and past superstars, not exciting new guys who can generate buzz and excitement. It’s just them being completely complacent. Part of the criticism also stemmed from their over reliance on New Japan and the Elite in headlining acts since The exodus of talent left a gaping hole in their homegrown draws. Adding guys like Enzo, Cass and the Beautiful People is just more of the same as that, but comes off as even more desperate. Especially when you consider the baggage the former two carry, and the nepotism involved in seemingly booking Velvet Sky and Mandy Leon over more talented women. Could these guys do positive business for ROH? Maybe. But they could do good business with a lot of people if they really wanted to. A lot of this just makes them look low rent, and like any other car crash, I’d why people keep talking about it. It’s not the sort of talk any company should want following what could very well be the biggest show they ever run. Again, I understand fully how safe ROH has played things. I have seen the reigns of Black, Richards, Elgin, etc. go sideways, because of the whole "they didn't pull the trigger" aregument. I have made the same criticism of the company relying on the crutch of NJPW throughout the 2010s. ROH has, and will always be, a place wrestling fans can go to enjoy wrestling, and the G1 Supercard didn't really discredit this ideal. Osprey v. Cobb was good, the tag match was enjoyable, the ladder match was good (so what if Taven won!), and yet many are claiming ROH's showing was terrible. It wasn't, and it has now opened the door for some interesting possibilities going into the future. I will admit, maybe the whole thing was out of desperation, but I am an optimist and I have seen ROH suffer through worse, and survive by producing a great wrestling product for almost 20 years. I agree with you that the ROH stuff wasn't bad (or at least it wasn't all bad) but they definitely lacked the star power and sophistication of what NJPW brought to the show. I disagree that bad buzz for them is better than no buzz. They were guaranteed some degree of buzz with how many eyes were on them on this show, and if they put on more respectable effort, put forward a few better matches (like less multi-man spot matches and garbage wrestling) and didn't offend anyone's sensibilities I think they'd have fared better than their approach here which came off like a neglected middle child trying to get his parents attention. I think it would've been better for them to leave fans thinking "hey good for ROH for making it to MSG, I might check them out" than`coming off desperate as their performance made them appear. I've seen comparisons to Russo booking and stuff, and seriously people comparing stuff recently to Russo booking needs to rewatch some Russo stuff because that's still in a league of its own. With ROH I think it's just that the kind of product that they're offering right now isn't made for an audience that large. It's a fine wrestling product, but it's not really exceptional in any way.
|
|
|
Post by corndog on Apr 10, 2019 23:11:21 GMT -5
Again, I understand fully how safe ROH has played things. I have seen the reigns of Black, Richards, Elgin, etc. go sideways, because of the whole "they didn't pull the trigger" aregument. I have made the same criticism of the company relying on the crutch of NJPW throughout the 2010s. ROH has, and will always be, a place wrestling fans can go to enjoy wrestling, and the G1 Supercard didn't really discredit this ideal. Osprey v. Cobb was good, the tag match was enjoyable, the ladder match was good (so what if Taven won!), and yet many are claiming ROH's showing was terrible. It wasn't, and it has now opened the door for some interesting possibilities going into the future. I will admit, maybe the whole thing was out of desperation, but I am an optimist and I have seen ROH suffer through worse, and survive by producing a great wrestling product for almost 20 years. I agree with you that the ROH stuff wasn't bad (or at least it wasn't all bad) but they definitely lacked the star power and sophistication of what NJPW brought to the show. I disagree that bad buzz for them is better than no buzz. They were guaranteed some degree of buzz with how many eyes were on them on this show, and if they put on more respectable effort, put forward a few better matches (like less multi-man spot matches and garbage wrestling) and didn't offend anyone's sensibilities I think they'd have fared better than their approach here which came off like a neglected middle child trying to get his parents attention. I think it would've been better for them to leave fans thinking "hey good for ROH for making it to MSG, I might check them out" than`coming off desperate as their performance made them appear.I've seen comparisons to Russo booking and stuff, and seriously people comparing stuff recently to Russo booking needs to rewatch some Russo stuff because that's still in a league of its own. With ROH I think it's just that the kind of product that they're offering right now isn't made for an audience that large. It's a fine wrestling product, but it's not really exceptional in any way. I was expecting it to be more along the lines of what I put in bold. I actually liked the Honor Rising shows, they have brought in some good talent and for the most part, I enjoy a lot of the wrestling I see from them. But this really did feel like a bunch of attention getting booking rather than just having strong wrestling matches. I don't mind an angle here and there, or a new face, but everything thing felt like it was booked to get heat. Kenny King winning the Honor Rumble would have been fine had a face won the title match, but there is nothing even tweener about Matt Taven, he's a full blown heel. Enzo and Cass, I have nothing to say that hasn't been said already, it's a bad move.
|
|