Wieners=$$$
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Apr 10, 2019 23:12:38 GMT -5
I agree with you that the ROH stuff wasn't bad (or at least it wasn't all bad) but they definitely lacked the star power and sophistication of what NJPW brought to the show. I disagree that bad buzz for them is better than no buzz. They were guaranteed some degree of buzz with how many eyes were on them on this show, and if they put on more respectable effort, put forward a few better matches (like less multi-man spot matches and garbage wrestling) and didn't offend anyone's sensibilities I think they'd have fared better than their approach here which came off like a neglected middle child trying to get his parents attention. I think it would've been better for them to leave fans thinking "hey good for ROH for making it to MSG, I might check them out" than`coming off desperate as their performance made them appear. I've seen comparisons to Russo booking and stuff, and seriously people comparing stuff recently to Russo booking needs to rewatch some Russo stuff because that's still in a league of its own. With ROH I think it's just that the kind of product that they're offering right now isn't made for an audience that large. It's a fine wrestling product, but it's not really exceptional in any way. I believe people were already saying good on ROH for making it to MSG, especially considering everything the company has gone through. However, like has been said, many people gave more credit to NJPW's influence getting them there, and justifiably so, that many people were already writing off ROH's presence on the show. I even echoed many of the same complaints in regards to ROH's booking for the last few years in relying too heavily on NJPW, while getting little in return. This was their way of trying to revamp their image and set themselves apart going forward, against the AEW's and Impacts, and even whatever NJPW's American influence will become, of the American wrestling scene. People call out Taven, a wrestler who deserves more credit than he gets for his in-ring talent and heel work, for not being a big enough name. People discredit Jay Lethal as stale. Both men had a great 60-minute match recently that finally got heat on the ROH title, and everyone still wanted Scurll, a man on his way out of the company, probably into the hands of their direct competitors to win. Scurll's a great talent, but it would've been the wrong move and would've only increased his stock heading out, and not ROH's going forward. Now that ROH is taking a chance on controversial talent with Enzo and Cass, people are still claiming ROH are doing things wrong. This scenario reminds me of another time ROH decided to use controversy and "outsider" talent, and that gave us the critcally acclaimed ROH v. CZW feud. Maybe, just maybe, the presence of Enzo and Cass, who were over mind you in the WWE, could bring more attention to the ROH product, which by the way, has not said anything about giving up on what brought them to this level, and that is great wrestling.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2019 23:36:21 GMT -5
I believe people were already saying good on ROH for making it to MSG, especially considering everything the company has gone through. However, like has been said, many people gave more credit to NJPW's influence getting them there, and justifiably so, that many people were already writing off ROH's presence on the show. I even echoed many of the same complaints in regards to ROH's booking for the last few years in relying too heavily on NJPW, while getting little in return. This was their way of trying to revamp their image and set themselves apart going forward, against the AEW's and Impacts, and even whatever NJPW's American influence will become, of the American wrestling scene. People call out Taven, a wrestler who deserves more credit than he gets for his in-ring talent and heel work, for not being a big enough name. People discredit Jay Lethal as stale. Both men had a great 60-minute match recently that finally got heat on the ROH title, and everyone still wanted Scurll, a man on his way out of the company, probably into the hands of their direct competitors to win. Scurll's a great talent, but it would've been the wrong move and would've only increased his stock heading out, and not ROH's going forward. Now that ROH is taking a chance on controversial talent with Enzo and Cass, people are still claiming ROH are doing things wrong. This scenario reminds me of another time ROH decided to use controversy and "outsider" talent, and that gave us the critcally acclaimed ROH v. CZW feud. Maybe, just maybe, the presence of Enzo and Cass, who were over mind you in the WWE, could bring more attention to the ROH product, which by the way, has not said anything about giving up on what brought them to this level, and that is great wrestling. I can only speak for myself but I didn't get the impression that the mood of the people here watching were looking for ROH to fail or anything. I think everyone was happy ROH got this shot when it was announced, and were still happy for them going in, but their failure to read the room hurt them in the end. If the calls they made on that show were good ones then it's on them to prove it. In my opinion, that opportunity may have been the last time they play a show with that much buzz, which is why I think a lot of these crazy moves were bad for them. Taven's a good wrestler but he didn't convince anyone that he's MSG worthy unfortunately. Marty Scurll is probably leaving, but until then he's still an ROH guy, so he would have been a valid choice to win, and it would have fit that bold requirement given his contract status. You can't really blame people for being skeptical that a company that's gradually been losing its identity, made a bunch of questionable calls on the single biggest show they've ever had. Maybe there will be some big "aha" moment later on where it all starts to make sense but as of right now it kind of looks like they're skidding off the rails a bit. On that night they should've given people a reason to wanna see more, of all nights that certainly wasn't the time for car crash booking.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2019 1:31:38 GMT -5
Honestly I don't at all buy the, "People are talking about it so they did good!" viewpoint. Is much of anyone going, "Oh, wow, I can't wait to see what they do with Enzo and Cass from here on out?" No, they just think it's stupid to bring them on and to potentially piss off NJPW in the process by screwing with their own angle with the timing of it.
And I have no idea what on earth the two are supposed to actually contribute given the entirety of what anyone actually cared about with the two of them is an introduction that they can't even legally do anymore.
On the whole to me this whole thing feels like the first major bullet in ROH. It's not dead yet, don't misunderstand me, but I can't see as many people trusting them to deliver on a big stage like this again for the foreseeable future, especially not without NJPW doing the heavy-lifting for them.
Though I think the dumbest thing is the Taven decision. It's your biggest show ever, just give the belt to the guy the crowd actually wants to see win and flip it over to Matt "Mike Bennett is more interesting" Taven at whatever the next PPV is. But they can't do that because ROH is terrified of ever giving fans what they actually want.
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Facetious
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Post by Facetious on Apr 11, 2019 3:31:45 GMT -5
Maybe they'll put it on Marty and say "see? We do have faith in you!! Please sign with us!!!" a month before his contact expires.
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Post by Yamashita Enforcement Division on Apr 11, 2019 7:36:50 GMT -5
Though I think the dumbest thing is the Taven decision. It's your biggest show ever, just give the belt to the guy the crowd actually wants to see win and flip it over to Matt "Mike Bennett is more interesting" Taven at whatever the next PPV is. But they can't do that because ROH is terrified of ever giving fans what they actually want. I agree, not because Taven is bad or bland or whatever, but because (as New Japan showed in the Main Event) the big take-aways from the show for Ring of Honor were all babyfaces getting big timed by heels. Kelly Klein beats Mayu Iwatani as a tentative babyface: quick debut a new heel stable to beat her down and tag her like the nWo. Flip Gordon returns looking jacked and ready to fight Bully Ray and finally put him down; Ray gets two minions in Silas (complained about working hurt and not being on the card publicly) Young, and Shane Taylor to make the fight unfair and set up the Juice/Haskins run-in. Tag Title four-way is a fun clusterf***; have the ROH teams get jumped by Enzo and Cass after the bell in a confusing angle that allows no one to stand tall. Have a legitimate holy shit moment in the Liger/Mutoh staredown and final two of the Honor Rumble; having Kenny King sneak in to throw both legends out. The only real uncontested happy moment of babyface triumph was Jeff Cobb's victory over Billy Ospreay in the opener: a simple, fun match that showcased the skills of both guys involved. Like, the biggest problem with the ROH card wasn't that the action was bad (it wasn't) or that they ran too many angles on what New Japan was presenting as a supershow opposite them (they did, but it didn't kill anything), it was that the ROH didn't give their version of the Rainmaker winning the belt from Knife Pervert, the big happy moment that people can look at and go "man, ROH's half of the show was rough, but at least this cool moment of triumph happened"
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Post by Crow Dust on Apr 11, 2019 8:06:44 GMT -5
Maybe they'll put it on Marty and say "see? We do have faith in you!! Please sign with us!!!" a month before his contact expires. ahh yes the O’Reilly move
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Post by corndog on Apr 11, 2019 9:18:25 GMT -5
Though I think the dumbest thing is the Taven decision. It's your biggest show ever, just give the belt to the guy the crowd actually wants to see win and flip it over to Matt "Mike Bennett is more interesting" Taven at whatever the next PPV is. But they can't do that because ROH is terrified of ever giving fans what they actually want. I agree, not because Taven is bad or bland or whatever, but because (as New Japan showed in the Main Event) the big take-aways from the show for Ring of Honor were all babyfaces getting big timed by heels. Kelly Klein beats Mayu Iwatani as a tentative babyface: quick debut a new heel stable to beat her down and tag her like the nWo. Flip Gordon returns looking jacked and ready to fight Bully Ray and finally put him down; Ray gets two minions in Silas (complained about working hurt and not being on the card publicly) Young, and Shane Taylor to make the fight unfair and set up the Juice/Haskins run-in. Tag Title four-way is a fun clusterf***; have the ROH teams get jumped by Enzo and Cass after the bell in a confusing angle that allows no one to stand tall. Have a legitimate holy shit moment in the Liger/Mutoh staredown and final two of the Honor Rumble; having Kenny King sneak in to throw both legends out. The only real uncontested happy moment of babyface triumph was Jeff Cobb's victory over Billy Ospreay in the opener: a simple, fun match that showcased the skills of both guys involved. Like, the biggest problem with the ROH card wasn't that the action was bad (it wasn't) or that they ran too many angles on what New Japan was presenting as a supershow opposite them (they did, but it didn't kill anything), it was that the ROH didn't give their version of the Rainmaker winning the belt from Knife Pervert, the big happy moment that people can look at and go "man, ROH's half of the show was rough, but at least this cool moment of triumph happened" As I said in my last post, everything ROH did seemed to be about getting heat. Wrestling needs feel good moments to work, especially on a big show like this. New Japan went very heavy with those, not only having Okada winning, but Ibushi as well. But ROH had a heel ruin the Honor Rumble and win, Dalton Castle turned heel after losing a squash, Enzo/Cass attack other heels after the tag title match, Klein gets jumped by the Beautiful People and Mandy Leon, and of course Taven wins. The ONLY face to get anything without some post-match BS in the ROH matches was Flip pinning Bully Ray, that was literally it. I don't count Cobb beating Ospreay, because Ospreay is a face and I think that match was completely booked by New Japan. My point is, if you feel the need to put the belt on Taven, there needs to be balance. You can't spend the whole card having the heels come out on top and then do this as your last move. As you said, they NEEDED Scurll to win because of everything else booked to send the crowd home happy. They could always have Taven take the belt off of him and personally I think Taven is the right long term move, Jay White is stale and it gives ROH time to establish a new face to take the belt off of him.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Apr 11, 2019 9:20:09 GMT -5
Somebody just mentioned Enzo Amore and Brian Pillman in the same f***ing sentence. That's the greatest argument that I've ever heard for shutting this board down.
In a more serious reply to the above: If the best statement of intent ROH, the "pure wrestling company"(and that has ALWAYS been their brand) can come up with to say "Here we come f***ers!" is two guys who need 5 hours and a 20 point diagram to figure out how to put on a hammerlock, then they're f***ed. Period.
Why do they have to fit the "ROH" mold? I think the point I made was that they are the perfect antagonist to all "pure-wrestling" stands for. They are great examples of sports-entertainers invading. They have clearly created buzz. There is a saying that the only bad-press, is no-press. For one, there is bad press and when everyoen comes away from your biggest show scoffing at you and calling you an idiot, it's bad press. There's no turnaround here for ROH, no follow-up in the here and now that salvages what should be a time of excitement and positive word of mouth. That's a point of failure. But beyond that, the meta-heat of "these guys suck and therefore they're the perfect foils we'll be entertainede by and want to boo for the right reasons" just isn't going to cut it. Even if ROH was still a pure wrestling promotion, they can introduce that chaos with people who disrespect what that tradition means. And they've had heels do that before, but usually those heels are kind of passable. Enzo and Cass aren't, and that's going to be a huge issue because trying to do 'sports entertainment' works on a big scale and a big stage, and ROH doesn't have the production chops or the scale to make that work.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Apr 11, 2019 10:21:34 GMT -5
Maybe they'll put it on Marty and say "see? We do have faith in you!! Please sign with us!!!" a month before his contact expires. Like when they tried to pull that with Kyle o' Riley and then he still dipped, lmao.
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Wieners=$$$
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Apr 11, 2019 11:22:30 GMT -5
Why do they have to fit the "ROH" mold? I think the point I made was that they are the perfect antagonist to all "pure-wrestling" stands for. They are great examples of sports-entertainers invading. They have clearly created buzz. There is a saying that the only bad-press, is no-press. For one, there is bad press and when everyoen comes away from your biggest show scoffing at you and calling you an idiot, it's bad press. There's no turnaround here for ROH, no follow-up in the here and now that salvages what should be a time of excitement and positive word of mouth. That's a point of failure. But beyond that, the meta-heat of "these guys suck and therefore they're the perfect foils we'll be entertainede by and want to boo for the right reasons" just isn't going to cut it. Even if ROH was still a pure wrestling promotion, they can introduce that chaos with people who disrespect what that tradition means. And they've had heels do that before, but usually those heels are kind of passable. Enzo and Cass aren't, and that's going to be a huge issue because trying to do 'sports entertainment' works on a big scale and a big stage, and ROH doesn't have the production chops or the scale to make that work. Funny thing, this "bad" press is still being talked about five days later. Almost like this stunt is gained attention. Now everyone is waiting to see what happens next. If you, and so many others here, are done with ROH completely, then it will be considered a bad move, however, some people want to see a train wreck, and see what can be salvaged. Like I've said, ROH has suffered worse, and still producing an entertaining product.
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Post by Von Wagner's Brownies on Apr 11, 2019 11:31:29 GMT -5
I couldn't make up my mind if I should put this here or make a thread on it.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Apr 11, 2019 11:34:11 GMT -5
For one, there is bad press and when everyoen comes away from your biggest show scoffing at you and calling you an idiot, it's bad press. There's no turnaround here for ROH, no follow-up in the here and now that salvages what should be a time of excitement and positive word of mouth. That's a point of failure. But beyond that, the meta-heat of "these guys suck and therefore they're the perfect foils we'll be entertainede by and want to boo for the right reasons" just isn't going to cut it. Even if ROH was still a pure wrestling promotion, they can introduce that chaos with people who disrespect what that tradition means. And they've had heels do that before, but usually those heels are kind of passable. Enzo and Cass aren't, and that's going to be a huge issue because trying to do 'sports entertainment' works on a big scale and a big stage, and ROH doesn't have the production chops or the scale to make that work. Funny thing, this "bad" press is still being talked about five days later. Almost like this stunt is gained attention. Now everyone is waiting to see what happens next. If you, and so many others here, are done with ROH completely, then it will be considered a bad move, however, some people want to see a train wreck, and see what can be salvaged. Like I've said, ROH has suffered worse, and still producing an entertaining product. Yeah I remember when Batman vs. Superman came out, got mercilessly shit on, and then the follow-up Justice League made a whole 200 million dollars less at the box office than that. Really worked that long-term discussion into the big bucks. I don't think people are waiting to see what happens, I think people watched a show that sucked and that a lot of them aren't going to tune in to shit. This is a forum, we discuss things, and in this thread about Ring of Honor's show, where make no mistake the conversation has slowed and fewer people are wading in to keep talking about it, the only thing anyone really pays mind to is this one awful non-angle off to the side that didn't even make the camera. It's not "Wow Ring of Honor did a great job I can't wait to watch more of their show and subscribe so I can see what happens next". Bad press exists and stock phrases don't become true because you've heard them a bunch of times. I watched G1 Supercard with my NJPW World account and ROH's performance did not move me to give them any more of my money, so yeah that's pretty crap move.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Apr 11, 2019 11:37:07 GMT -5
lmao, CazXL? It keeps getting worse.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Apr 11, 2019 11:40:44 GMT -5
I couldn't make up my mind if I should put this here or make a thread on it. This shit is just sadXL, and also probably worthy of its own thread becasue it deserves dedicated riffing and mockery.
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lionheart21
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Post by lionheart21 on Apr 11, 2019 11:49:49 GMT -5
Bandido, Jay Lethal Jeff Cobb, Juice Robinson, Marty Scurll and Zack Sabre Jr are pretty much the only male wrestlers on the roster that I really have interest in. And the women...holy shit, the f***ing state of that roster. Mayu Iwatani deserves better.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Apr 11, 2019 11:57:34 GMT -5
Those two morons are gonna go out there, do the exact same entrance spiel that they did in WWE, and get themselves sued. Bank on it.
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lionheart21
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Post by lionheart21 on Apr 11, 2019 12:02:20 GMT -5
Those two morons are gonna go out there, do the exact same entrance spiel that they did in WWE, and get themselves sued. Bank on it. Either that, or they'll just do a different version of it "My name is NZo, and I am a Certified G, and you can't educate people on that. And this here, this is CazXL, and he's really tall, and you can't educate people on that. Bada bang, realest dudes in the rang! How's it goin?!"
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markymark
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Post by markymark on Apr 11, 2019 12:03:54 GMT -5
Bandido, Jay Lethal Jeff Cobb, Juice Robinson, Marty Scurll and Zack Sabre Jr are pretty much the only male wrestlers on the roster that I really have interest in. And the women...holy shit, the f***ing state of that roster. Mayu Iwatani deserves better. I kind want to give face Klein a chance, because as a heel she was generic as hell and also I think they didnt book her properly. If they have her jobbing to Velvet, rip to her career and WOH.
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lionheart21
Patti Mayonnaise
Once did a thing...
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Post by lionheart21 on Apr 11, 2019 12:15:16 GMT -5
Bandido, Jay Lethal Jeff Cobb, Juice Robinson, Marty Scurll and Zack Sabre Jr are pretty much the only male wrestlers on the roster that I really have interest in. And the women...holy shit, the f***ing state of that roster. Mayu Iwatani deserves better. I kind want to give face Klein a chance, because as a heel she was generic as hell and also I think they didnt book her properly. If they have her jobbing to Velvet, rip to her career and WOH. Haven't seen enough of her work yet to make a good enough opinion on her. But the rest of them (aside from Iwatani, who is by far the best there), I haven't heard about any of them or seen their work, and then there's the Beautiful People, which I unfortunately have seen their work.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Apr 11, 2019 12:18:33 GMT -5
Honestly, maybe I'm spoiled by wrestling Independentwrestling.tv too much lately, but Kelly Klein is honestly the most generic woman's wrestler out there right now to me. Literally anybody is more interesting to me than her.
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