camphor #BLM
Don Corleone
It's Skull-Sorcerer vs Super Sorcerer in a legendary LEG BAT battle!
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Post by camphor #BLM on Jun 6, 2020 8:52:42 GMT -5
God, there's no f***ing racial aspect here. None. It's a vet/rookie thing, not a white vet/minority rookie thing. It's a "paying dues" deal that I don't feel strongly about either way, but we don't need to shoehorn phantom racism into it. 1) yes, all races were asked to do it 2) being asked to do menial shit AS a minority is a big f***ing deal (1) is unrelated to (2)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2020 8:58:02 GMT -5
God, there's no f***ing racial aspect here. None. It's a vet/rookie thing, not a white vet/minority rookie thing. It's a "paying dues" deal that I don't feel strongly about either way, but we don't need to shoehorn phantom racism into it. 1) yes, all races were asked to do it 2) being asked to do menial shit AS a minority is a big f***ing deal (1) is unrelated to (2) He's being held to the same standard as every other rookie who comes through the company.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 6, 2020 8:58:03 GMT -5
God, there's no f***ing racial aspect here. None. It's a vet/rookie thing, not a white vet/minority rookie thing. It's a "paying dues" deal that I don't feel strongly about either way, but we don't need to shoehorn phantom racism into it. 1) yes, all races were asked to do it 2) being asked to do menial shit AS a minority is a big f***ing deal (1) is unrelated to (2) This. Very much this. 1) yes, all races were asked to do it 2) being asked to do menial shit AS a minority is a big f***ing deal (1) is unrelated to (2) He's being held to the same standard as every other rookie who comes through the company. That "standard" needs to go. Completely.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jun 6, 2020 9:05:31 GMT -5
Anyone who's goign to think less of you and believe you have an attitude problem because you won't buy and serve them drinks, and then keep hammering on how you really should get them a beer if you really think you belong at this job, is someone you shouldn't care about the opinion of in the least and it's f***ed that this is a point of contention. Which is the real danger of these mindsets; they become cyclical reinforcements of themselves where people normalize them because they had to do it and then push the people below them into performing the same tasks because what makes them so special that they can say no to the shit they had to do. It's toxic and it needs to stop.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2020 9:19:33 GMT -5
1) yes, all races were asked to do it 2) being asked to do menial shit AS a minority is a big f***ing deal (1) is unrelated to (2) This. Very much this. He's being held to the same standard as every other rookie who comes through the company. That "standard" needs to go. Completely. I'm not going to argue against people who want that stuff shut down. I don't really care. But mentally twisting and contorting to glean racism *here* is ridiculous. It's not there.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jun 6, 2020 9:41:00 GMT -5
This. Very much this. That "standard" needs to go. Completely. I'm not going to argue against people who want that stuff shut down. I don't really care. But mentally twisting and contorting to glean racism *here* is ridiculous. It's not there. It's not that Lio saw this as them being racist toward him, but that he was uncomfortable with it because the idea of a black man carrying white men's bags in and serving them drinks jut evoked that specter for him. He never called anyone racist, the only twisting going on here is in distorting that claim to say people are trying to glean racism from it.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jun 6, 2020 9:51:37 GMT -5
Anyone who's goign to think less of you and believe you have an attitude problem because you won't buy and serve them drinks, and then keep hammering on how you really should get them a beer if you really think you belong at this job, is someone you shouldn't care about the opinion of in the least and it's f***ed that this is a point of contention. Which is the real danger of these mindsets; they become cyclical reinforcements of themselves where people normalize them because they had to do it and then push the people below them into performing the same tasks because what makes them so special that they can say no to the shit they had to do. It's toxic and it needs to stop. What if it is everyone that thinks less of you? Is it just a toxic environment then? A toxic profession if it’s in every company? A toxic generation if it’s in other professions and fields as well? They all could be true, mind you. Just thinking out loud what the solution could be if it’s so rampant.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jun 6, 2020 10:10:19 GMT -5
Anyone who's goign to think less of you and believe you have an attitude problem because you won't buy and serve them drinks, and then keep hammering on how you really should get them a beer if you really think you belong at this job, is someone you shouldn't care about the opinion of in the least and it's f***ed that this is a point of contention. Which is the real danger of these mindsets; they become cyclical reinforcements of themselves where people normalize them because they had to do it and then push the people below them into performing the same tasks because what makes them so special that they can say no to the shit they had to do. It's toxic and it needs to stop. What if it is everyone that thinks less of you? Is it just a toxic environment then? A toxic profession if it’s in every company? A toxic generation if it’s in other professions and fields as well? They all could be true, mind you. Just thinking out loud what the solution could be if it’s so rampant. Yes. All of that, yes. If everyone is so up their own ass about tradition and "Well, I had to do it" with no introspection into if it's reasonable or has an actual purpose, then yeah, everyone's wrong and the whole atmosphere is shit. These sorts of things are made to reinforce top-down social structures that we are seeing more and more come with horrible problems that it takes time and effort to address. There are people who within our lifetime had these same questions about workplace sexual harassment, and that's an issue continuing on to this very day. Societal norms are by nature incredibly ingrained and largely embraced, and if we never stop to think abut if something is actually right because everyone does it, then we don't grow as a society. Here, we have a situation where I think a lot of the people defending the idea that this is normal and good are missing the ways he's being hounded and shittalked and prodded over it, even in gorilla minutes before his match. That's in every way a toxic environment. Henry was at this time around as a backstage enforcer and kept pushing at Lio to do this thing. An employee of the company whose job it was to keep people in line would not let up on him saying no to serving drinks and carrying bags. That's so many red flags to me. It's not optional, it's not an offer, it's not asked and then dropped. It's pushed on people with no thought for if that's necessary or healthy. And that's an attitude echoed through a lot of this thread. Uncritical belief this sort of thing is good without considering the idea that there's unsavory power dynamics in play. There are things you can do as a group that help you bond; CMM earlier in the thread brought up New Japan's young lion system, and the trainees cooking together for their housemates is exactly the sort of thing that brings people together. Shared responsibilities in a shared space, where they not only do these tasks together but benefit together from them. That is how you positively bring these connections in. You treat people on the same level as you, you don't bring social tests that have nothing to do with the job and that get aggressively forced upon people, because all that does is demand compliance and conformity.I think honestly, the inverse is way more effect. Help the newbie out. Show them the ropes. Be friendly and open to them. Or cook with them. I can't stress enough what cooking together and eating the food can do for bonding between people who don't know each other well. There are positive ways to build bonds and promote team work, and then there are ways that teach you to eat shit for the people above you.
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Post by arrogantmodel on Jun 6, 2020 10:24:48 GMT -5
I used to think rookie "hazing" was ok. In high school. I participated in some minor stuff, but nothing harmful or anything. But like I said earlier, I didn't do shit for any of the older guys.
When it comes to pro sports, it all comes down to productivity. Some rookie tells the vets to "f*** off" with the costumes and talent shows? Ok, they might get pissy. But if that rookie hits 40 home runs, wins a gold glove, gets put in the All-Star game, is a Rookie of the Year/MVP candidate, and helps the team win and make the playoffs...the vets ain't saying shit to that kid again.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2020 10:27:19 GMT -5
I'm not going to argue against people who want that stuff shut down. I don't really care. But mentally twisting and contorting to glean racism *here* is ridiculous. It's not there. It's not that Lio saw this as them being racist toward him, but that he was uncomfortable with it because the idea of a black man carrying white men's bags in and serving them drinks jut evoked that specter for him. He never called anyone racist, the only twisting going on here is in distorting that claim to say people are trying to glean racism from it. F*** that. Lio knew what he was putting out there and how it'd be interpreted by a lot of folks as some racist practice, and when you add in the fact that a large portion of the people he'd be grunting for are minorities (and, IIRC, Mark Henry was a main player in all of this), it's even more absurd.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2020 10:28:25 GMT -5
Around here, we call people who do that kind of thing "Put Upons" or, more bluntly "Suckers" because it never actually stops in jobs here. Once people figure out you don't have enough spine to tell them to leave you to your actual job tasks, then all that coffee fetching, item hauling, and other menial crap just becomes your job.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jun 6, 2020 10:29:32 GMT -5
So quick question, and I'm saying this as the white guy in my avatar...
Who are we to tell a black guy how to interpret something that, understandably, can be seen that way regardless of the history behind it?
Because especially on this page, that seems WAY more glaring than the act itself.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jun 6, 2020 10:31:01 GMT -5
It's 2020, not 1976. Pro wrestling always wants to have it both ways, they don't want to be looked at as carny bullshit, but they continue to do carny bullshit.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jun 6, 2020 10:33:42 GMT -5
It's not that Lio saw this as them being racist toward him, but that he was uncomfortable with it because the idea of a black man carrying white men's bags in and serving them drinks jut evoked that specter for him. He never called anyone racist, the only twisting going on here is in distorting that claim to say people are trying to glean racism from it. F*** that. Lio knew what he was putting out there and how it'd be interpreted by a lot of folks as some racist practice, and when you add in the fact that a large portion of the people he'd be grunting for are minorities (and, IIRC, Mark Henry was a main player in all of this), it's even more absurd. Mark Henry ate shit and never left, and instead of trying to change things, he still thinks that hazing is an ok practice and essentially now acts as a tattletale for the office.
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Jun 6, 2020 10:36:13 GMT -5
Racially motivated or not "perform these tasks to show respect to the veterans" is dumb and people like hanging on him after he's said he doesn't believe he should to keep nagging at him for it and try to pressure him into doing it helps literally nothing. I have the total opposite view, if it’s basic shit like you carry the gear or you’re in charge of handing out beers, I’m fine with it. It happens almost everywhere, I’ve had plenty of jobs where that’s a thing. As long as it’s not escalating to full out hazing, like biscuit games or locking rookies in the tour bus bathroom for an hour, I see nothing wrong with it. In my experience, there’s usually a pretty big correlation between dudes who make a stink about carrying the equipment and dudes you don’t want on your crew. In other news I looked up what Biscuit Games are and am now regretting all of my life choices.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Jun 6, 2020 10:39:51 GMT -5
I have the total opposite view, if it’s basic shit like you carry the gear or you’re in charge of handing out beers, I’m fine with it. It happens almost everywhere, I’ve had plenty of jobs where that’s a thing. As long as it’s not escalating to full out hazing, like biscuit games or locking rookies in the tour bus bathroom for an hour, I see nothing wrong with it. In my experience, there’s usually a pretty big correlation between dudes who make a stink about carrying the equipment and dudes you don’t want on your crew. In other news I looked up what Biscuit Games are and am now regretting all of my life choices. Yeah, I probably should have used a less awful example. Not sure if that was a thing in all sports, but junior hockey in Canada had a horrible track record of hazing until about 10 years ago. Really disturbing sexual stuff a lot of it.
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Post by SCCB Was Told To Do Steroids on Jun 6, 2020 10:40:05 GMT -5
During the Cavs' championship season, there was a "behind the scenes" episode where Cedi Osman and another rookie had to buy doughnuts and coffee every morning for the team before film and shoot around.
Everyone has to pay their dues, man.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jun 6, 2020 10:49:19 GMT -5
It's not that Lio saw this as them being racist toward him, but that he was uncomfortable with it because the idea of a black man carrying white men's bags in and serving them drinks jut evoked that specter for him. He never called anyone racist, the only twisting going on here is in distorting that claim to say people are trying to glean racism from it. F*** that. Lio knew what he was putting out there and how it'd be interpreted by a lot of folks as some racist practice, and when you add in the fact that a large portion of the people he'd be grunting for are minorities (and, IIRC, Mark Henry was a main player in all of this), it's even more absurd. Lio has been pretty up front about how he saw it and psychoanalyzing how no he's actually totally trying to subtly key people to him thinking they're racists is not a road you want to go down due. This email is one of a line of things Lio has said about the topic that at no point included "They're all racists". It was a bad look and he said it made him uncomfortable. You don't get to tell people they can't be uncomfortable, full stop.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2020 11:07:57 GMT -5
F*** that. Lio knew what he was putting out there and how it'd be interpreted by a lot of folks as some racist practice, and when you add in the fact that a large portion of the people he'd be grunting for are minorities (and, IIRC, Mark Henry was a main player in all of this), it's even more absurd. Lio has been pretty up front about how he saw it and psychoanalyzing how no he's actually totally trying to subtly key people to him thinking they're racists is not a road you want to go down due. This email is one of a line of things Lio has said about the topic that at no point included "They're all racists". It was a bad look and he said it made him uncomfortable. You don't get to tell people they can't be uncomfortable, full stop. Fair enough. He can feel how he feels about it, and I can feel like he's being illogical (again, considering the % of minorities on the roster, rookies will be grunting for whites, blacks, Asians, Latinos, etc.) and framed it in a way to imply something more insidious was going on. I'm sure I'll be asked to drop it soon.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2020 11:36:12 GMT -5
So quick question, and I'm saying this as the white guy in my avatar... Who are we to tell a black guy how to interpret something that, understandably, can be seen that way regardless of the history behind it? Because especially on this page, that seems WAY more glaring than the act itself. He can feel however he wants. I'm weighing in with my opinion here. If you think it's irrelevant because I'm white, cool. If you think I'm straight full of shit, cool.
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