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Post by eJm on Dec 15, 2020 5:01:51 GMT -5
Honestly, I've been a little bugged at guys just standing around waiting for a spot, then I realized that a lot of guys are being taught that so they can be ready and in position to absorb the spot from the person jumping. I would rather guys were safely ready to take the spot then have guys fighting trying to make the spot look realistic and natural, just to move into the position at the last second and possibly not being able to catch the guy doing the spot and potentially injuring both of themselves. From my experience, that is how it’s taught. Like, sure, you could add something to make it more realistic but as you said, that leaves things open to not being in the right position to catch and I’ve personally seen the difference between being ready to catch and being ready to watch someone splat on a gym floor. One might take away from it for people but the other results in...well, someone going splat on the gym floor.
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Post by optikk on Dec 15, 2020 5:37:55 GMT -5
Honestly, I've been a little bugged at guys just standing around waiting for a spot, then I realized that a lot of guys are being taught that so they can be ready and in position to absorb the spot from the person jumping. I would rather guys were safely ready to take the spot then have guys fighting trying to make the spot look realistic and natural, just to move into the position at the last second and possibly not being able to catch the guy doing the spot and potentially injuring both of themselves. I think them preparing is completely fine. However it is the job of the production team to not expose this preparation. Surely cutting away is an option
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Post by eJm on Dec 15, 2020 5:39:50 GMT -5
Honestly, I've been a little bugged at guys just standing around waiting for a spot, then I realized that a lot of guys are being taught that so they can be ready and in position to absorb the spot from the person jumping. I would rather guys were safely ready to take the spot then have guys fighting trying to make the spot look realistic and natural, just to move into the position at the last second and possibly not being able to catch the guy doing the spot and potentially injuring both of themselves. I think them preparing is completely fine. However it is the job of the production team to not expose this preparation. Surely cutting away is an option That I can agree with. There are probably other shots to take. I will accept it’s probably a bit more difficult right now because Daily’s isn’t exactly a place you can have a tonne of angles in.
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
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Post by nisidhe on Dec 15, 2020 8:03:41 GMT -5
This is a hot take if one ever existed, but I think JR is right, on all fronts.
Ross has been commentating on pro wrestling since the early 1980s. Certain moves are intended to end matches. The DDT is one of them; the superkick can be another if executed properly. Submission holds can either end matches or create drama of the "Will they escape it?" variety. Every move is intended to build on the story being told in the ring. If you have a gaggle of wrestlers outside a ring waiting to receive a tope con hilo, they better be tussling or otherwise engaging with one another, and reacting facially when they realize another body is incoming.
The theme from that part of JR's rant is that storytelling matters. Few wrestling schools even touch on storytelling because a) most are run by people who haven't a clue what it involves and b) they're simply looking to move bodies in and out as quickly as possible. Few current wrestlers think in those terms because they've been conditioned that Creative will tell them what to do and because they haven't a say in that process anyway. If AEW really wants to break away from WWE comparisons and dodge the criticisms of the old-schoolers like JR and Cornette, in-ring storytelling will do it, and it will require talents with imagination, respect for wrestling's history, and the humility to accept the need for both. Mark my words - if AEW takes this stuff to heart and its talents start sorting this stuff out, that hope for a million viewers will become a reasonable expectation of two or three million minimum.
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kidkamikaze10
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Dec 15, 2020 8:15:00 GMT -5
I see JR's point, but my thing is, if every other wrestling country has realized storytelling has evolved (Lucha, Puro), then maybe American wrestling should too. That doesn't mean ignore storytelling, but it does mean for instance, giving up certain protected moves, while fresher ones do.
And also dealing with the fact that in some styles, a lot of moves are not protected. See Lucha. And they have a roster working a lot of styles. This point would be huge in the E, because they have an inhouse style everyone obeys.
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markymark
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by markymark on Dec 15, 2020 11:36:52 GMT -5
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 15, 2020 11:46:04 GMT -5
Honestly, I've been a little bugged at guys just standing around waiting for a spot, then I realized that a lot of guys are being taught that so they can be ready and in position to absorb the spot from the person jumping. I would rather guys were safely ready to take the spot then have guys fighting trying to make the spot look realistic and natural, just to move into the position at the last second and possibly not being able to catch the guy doing the spot and potentially injuring both of themselves. Everyone gets the safety aspect of it, the problem is the spot itself is overplayed in multiple ways
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Post by eJm on Dec 15, 2020 11:46:22 GMT -5
This needs to be said again, you can disagree with what he’s saying, agree with it, whatever.
What I know is that, in most jobs, if people went out of their way to bury their work colleagues on a podcast or a public forum on a constant basis, said person wouldn’t be at the job anymore.
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Post by Brandon Walsh is Insane. on Dec 15, 2020 12:30:26 GMT -5
Honestly, I've been a little bugged at guys just standing around waiting for a spot, then I realized that a lot of guys are being taught that so they can be ready and in position to absorb the spot from the person jumping. I would rather guys were safely ready to take the spot then have guys fighting trying to make the spot look realistic and natural, just to move into the position at the last second and possibly not being able to catch the guy doing the spot and potentially injuring both of themselves. I think them preparing is completely fine. However it is the job of the production team to not expose this preparation. Surely cutting away is an option Cut away? Doesn't seem like that's a thing.
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Post by toodarkmark on Dec 15, 2020 12:41:19 GMT -5
This needs to be said again, you can disagree with what he’s saying, agree with it, whatever. What I know is that, in most jobs, if people went out of their way to bury their work colleagues on a podcast or a public forum on a constant basis, said person wouldn’t be at the job anymore. Yeah. This story has been picked up by news sites and become fodder for anti-AEW trolls. Now a whole segment of workers are suddenly made to feel self conscious about performing a spot that's been around since at least the 80's in Mexico. He again has hurt the product. Treating women like "others", forgetting people's names, a part of me thinks he is far more trouble then he is worth.
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Post by Tyrannosaurus Sex on Dec 15, 2020 13:16:01 GMT -5
To be real, the spot is pretty ridiculous and overused to an extent, that much is true. But the company is literally named after the group that has done the style he's insulting, it's the whole reason he has the job he has, because of them popularising it enough that they could lead a company that has a solid reputation and has gotten where it is now. They brought him on because they actually respected him and his body of work, and he goes and does this. He's biting the hand that feeds him and being ungrateful. Some people are looking past that just to shit on the spot and act like he's being bullied because he made one agreeable point amongst several subjective ones that he shouldn't be making on a public platform.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Dec 15, 2020 15:15:15 GMT -5
Jim Ross has always fluffed up people he liked and buried people he didn't. He just had Vince McMahon as the bigger evil, so people felt bad for him or just ignored what he said.
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Post by salvatoresincere on Dec 15, 2020 15:18:31 GMT -5
Hell yeah Darby!
Every time that guy dives outside the ring he gets a pop outta me. Through the bottom ropes, top speed, usually so fast the camera doesn't pick him up until the last moment. Never seen anything like it in 35 years watching wrestling. I'm happy he commented on this, this is why he's a rising star champion and Brandon Cutler is a winless bum.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by The Ichi on Dec 15, 2020 15:24:53 GMT -5
Lol, Cutler really triggered some of you that much?
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 15, 2020 15:26:20 GMT -5
I see JR's point, but my thing is, if every other wrestling country has realized storytelling has evolved (Lucha, Puro), then maybe American wrestling should too. That doesn't mean ignore storytelling, but it does mean for instance, giving up certain protected moves, while fresher ones do. And also dealing with the fact that in some styles, a lot of moves are not protected. See Lucha. And they have a roster working a lot of styles. This point would be huge in the E, because they have an inhouse style everyone obeys. Hell, part of the evolution of American indie wrestling has been the introduction of different styles and international influences. People who've worked all over the world and explored a variety of styles they've brought back and adapted in the ways that wrestlers on the big stage used to before the year 2001. Aside from Japanese and Mexican talent outright plying their precise craft in an American ring, you have a bunch of people who put in long years of work in Japan or Mexico and adapted those styles. Some of the roster's elder statesmen put in lots of international work to refine what they did, and they've been influential, too. I think to complain that no wrestling's evolution is bunk and bad and has to stop absolutely comes from an ignorant place of overlooking how those styles operate. Someone singled out how Ross sounded during Bucks vs. Hybrid Two, but you have two guys who have been working in Japan since 2008 against two guys who have been working Mexico since 2008. You can absolutely tell when Ross just stops caring about a match and it reflects in his commentary, but maybe he just doesn't get it like he thinks he gets it.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Dec 15, 2020 16:18:23 GMT -5
Yeah, JR isn’t necessarily wrong and that barely matters...he’s just a c*** about it.
Darby and FTR #1 can kiss his ass, or Cutler can mock him...whether they agree or not it doesn’t REALLY matter. Jim should shit on his coworkers. That’s the problem.
That said, the straight DDT hasn’t been a finish in 20 years. Sorry dude.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2020 16:21:24 GMT -5
This needs to be said again, you can disagree with what he’s saying, agree with it, whatever. What I know is that, in most jobs, if people went out of their way to bury their work colleagues on a podcast or a public forum on a constant basis, said person wouldn’t be at the job anymore. That's... pretty much it in a nutshell. I actually AGREE with what he's saying, to an extent. It's a spot that can't be done safely without looking ridiculous, so at the very least, it needs to reserved a bit. I just wish that A. He would be less of a horse's ass in terms of how he presents his opinion and B. He would understand that there's a large gulf of happy medium that exists between an Indie spot-fest and Bill Watts making top rope moves illegal.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Dec 15, 2020 16:30:08 GMT -5
This is a hot take if one ever existed, but I think JR is right, on all fronts. Ross has been commentating on pro wrestling since the early 1980s. Certain moves are intended to end matches. The DDT is one of them; the superkick can be another if executed properly. Submission holds can either end matches or create drama of the "Will they escape it?" variety. Every move is intended to build on the story being told in the ring. If you have a gaggle of wrestlers outside a ring waiting to receive a tope con hilo, they better be tussling or otherwise engaging with one another, and reacting facially when they realize another body is incoming. The theme from that part of JR's rant is that storytelling matters. Few wrestling schools even touch on storytelling because a) most are run by people who haven't a clue what it involves and b) they're simply looking to move bodies in and out as quickly as possible. Few current wrestlers think in those terms because they've been conditioned that Creative will tell them what to do and because they haven't a say in that process anyway. If AEW really wants to break away from WWE comparisons and dodge the criticisms of the old-schoolers like JR and Cornette, in-ring storytelling will do it, and it will require talents with imagination, respect for wrestling's history, and the humility to accept the need for both. Mark my words - if AEW takes this stuff to heart and its talents start sorting this stuff out, that hope for a million viewers will become a reasonable expectation of two or three million minimum. Many people in the thread agree with JR. The main criticism he is receiving here is the way he puts his opinion across. I think this is a shitty spot too, but I've also thought it was shitty in every wrestling promotion I've watched content from, which includes a shitload of them even before AEW came along. And talking about moves 'intended to end a match' from the 1980s is an argument I see made about wrestling pretty commonly and it makes less sense to me as time goes on. Let's apply that to other media, we shouldn't have any CGI movies because CGI was only meant to be for special effects that you couldn't do practically, or to save money. We shouldn't use actual string sections for music, because in the 80s people started using synths instead. And I am baffled at the idea of AEW needing to buck up their in-ring storytelling ideas - one of the things I've found most refreshing about AEW is that they have way more of that than the only Western promotion they're really competing with in any way. There are spotfests, too, but that's part of what makes AEW work is the mix of different styles. Wrestling evolves, it moves on, and having decades of experience in the business means you have lots of valuable things to say, but also means that shit may have moved on without you and you really need to get what that means. Eventually you become the establishment. You become something to rebel against. And people can ignore your feedback while still respecting your right to express it, so the least JR could do is be respectful in the way he talks about this kind of stuff.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Dec 15, 2020 16:31:14 GMT -5
Lol, Cutler really triggered some of you that much? You should see the comments on his tweet if you think peeps here are triggered, it's a mess lol
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Dec 15, 2020 16:33:32 GMT -5
I'd like to politely request people not use 'triggered' that way.
I'm happy to explain some of the things that being 'triggered' actually involves for folks that aren't familiar via PM if you like. It's pretty unpleasant. And that word becoming a meme has made these people's lives more difficult.
Props to Cutler for giving as few f***s about being polite about JR as JR is seemingly giving about being polite about him.
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