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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on May 2, 2021 4:53:37 GMT -5
He talks about anabolic warrior, junkfood dog, everyone made "the game is hungry hungry hippos" jokes when hunter came back bigger than he normally is, all the pre-steroid/post-steroid bodies in 92/93, etc and charlotte pulls the "you can't talk about me because I was born a woman" line when it's her turn that people are noticing something is obviously different about her appearance. Is she a professional wrestler on a wrestling show equal with everyone else, or are we supposed to treat her differently as a woman? If she were a commentator/something similar, then her appearance wouldn't matter, all that would matter is her voice, or if she's booking, her brain. If you're an in ring performer, and your appearance starts drastically changing, people are going to start questioning what happened. The same thing michael jackson had, "we like you and all, but what's going on with your appearance changing album to album?". A scientist using their brain, would be bad to comment on their appearance, because that has nothing to do with what they are doing. A in-ring wrestler's face becoming unrecognizable every few months is going to have people questioning what happened, and her body is thinner/slimmed down from when she left, so even in kayfabe within the show they would have to mention it, like they did with hulk in 93 (he slimmed down to increase his speed, etc). Unless there's something that I'm missing, I'm not seeing how she is being singled out or treated differently from others in the same position. If she was a female commentator her looks wouldn't matter? You sure about that?
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Post by HMARK Center on May 2, 2021 5:28:28 GMT -5
The constant yelling about Meltzer is emblematic to me of where we're really at when it comes to online discourse, particularly on Twitter.
Dave Meltzer was often way too insulting toward talent in the past; that's something that, far as I'm aware, he's owned up to and moved on from a good while ago, but it's understandable when people see those old Observer write-ups and feel like "the hell is this guy's problem?" Meltzer also isn't good at expressing things very often; like, in this case he probably wanted to get across a level of sympathy for women in wrestling who make frequent cosmetic, often surgical changes, but looking at the isolated quote it becomes easy to read it as him ascribing motives to Charlotte.
But let's also face reality, here: there's a small brigade of people on platforms like Twitter who are ready to isolate literally anything a person of note in any niche industry says that could remotely be construed as wrongheaded and use it as fuel to get people riled up about the person they're targeting. It is happening, and acting like it isn’t helps no one.
I don't really equate this with "cancel culture", at least insofar as the term is generally being used today: I think that phrase most often gets deployed by genuinely rich and powerful people to deflect attention away when they do some terrible stuff and might be held to account for it...oh, but they typically aren't held to account, so it's a phantom issue, anyway (e.g. someone complaining "they canceled my book deal!" when all that happens is a publisher moves their book to a smaller arm of their company). It's essentially used as a distraction and treats any and all criticism as somehow inherently invalid, which is nonsense.
But to me, the Meltzer stuff too often comes off as stemming from the "let's isolate the worst sounding thing this guy is saying, context or intent be damned, and use it to try and run him off/away from our niche interest scene" tactic of "canceling", as seen in the obsessive way the MeltzerSaidWhat Twitter account hounds the guy and the very public displays typically WWE wrestlers make bashing him, when most often actually listening to the entirety of what he said reveals a complete lack of malice. Hell, he's publicly owned it in the recent past; I still recall him asking people on Twitter not to defend him on a couple things.
Obviously that doesn't mean Meltzer can't be criticized; again, for a guy who writes and speaks for a living he really doesn't express himself very well a lot of the time, and he does have a reasonably sizable platform in the wrestling community, and if he says something that sounds like it reinforces, say, a negative stereotype it's fair for someone to speak up and say so. But I also believe there's some ulterior motive stuff going on here, because if the takeaway people have about Meltzer is "he's a bigot/misogynist/racist who doesn't need to be around anymore" then I question whether you're actually listening to him, or just listening to those who are trying to create that perception of him. The wrestling scene's got a lot bigger issues than Dave Meltzer, but I don't think it's a coincidence that the biggest "controversies" around him drop when there's bad WWE news going around, I'm sorry.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2021 5:59:57 GMT -5
He talks about anabolic warrior, junkfood dog, everyone made "the game is hungry hungry hippos" jokes when hunter came back bigger than he normally is, all the pre-steroid/post-steroid bodies in 92/93, etc and charlotte pulls the "you can't talk about me because I was born a woman" line when it's her turn that people are noticing something is obviously different about her appearance. Is she a professional wrestler on a wrestling show equal with everyone else, or are we supposed to treat her differently as a woman? If she were a commentator/something similar, then her appearance wouldn't matter, all that would matter is her voice, or if she's booking, her brain. If you're an in ring performer, and your appearance starts drastically changing, people are going to start questioning what happened. The same thing michael jackson had, "we like you and all, but what's going on with your appearance changing album to album?". A scientist using their brain, would be bad to comment on their appearance, because that has nothing to do with what they are doing. A in-ring wrestler's face becoming unrecognizable every few months is going to have people questioning what happened, and her body is thinner/slimmed down from when she left, so even in kayfabe within the show they would have to mention it, like they did with hulk in 93 (he slimmed down to increase his speed, etc). Unless there's something that I'm missing, I'm not seeing how she is being singled out or treated differently from others in the same position. If she was a female commentator her looks wouldn't matter? You sure about that? Unless you're talking about a "lillian garcia is more "television ready" than howard finkle" kind of thing, yes. You can have non-wrestlers, older people that can't get physical, tall people, short people, big people, little people, etc, on commentary, because what matters is what they are saying and how they get the story across with their brain and words to the audience. In the wwe corporate "must be pretty to be here" world, yes it probably matters, where they just hire "attractive people" to stand there and hold the microphone and recite lines. Or where the wrestlers all have to be zero fat fitness models, instead of real people that look like wrestlers. In the rest of the wrestling world, it doesn't matter. indies have regular women (older mom/wives types) on commentary, they aren't "beauty queens", but they are regular people that know wrestling and can yell at the wrestlers over the microphone and engage the audience in the show. uswa had regular women, sunny in 96 was doing all the recap shows because of her brain and ability to cover everybody's stories to get the show over to the audience, where sable was pushed as "oh she's so hot, but don't let her talk". They didn't put sable on "Recap the storylines for the audience" duty, they picked the girl who could actually do it. Wrestlemania 2 had three women on commentary, wrestlemania 3 had one. No one talks about what they looked like, it's what they said and what their personality was. If they're on commentary, the camera/attention would be on whatever the match is, and you'd just be hearing their voice, so it doesn't matter what they look like if they're not on the screen and can't call what is happening to your ears. If charlotte was on commentary, giving insight to the moves being done in the ring, and analysis, or doing bobby heenan/paul e jokes, etc, it would be the things she was speaking that matter, and she'd be sitting at a table, so who care what she looks like. If you're getting involved physically, then it matters, because then the commentators have to give a "she's thinned down to improve her speed!" analysis to explain it to the audience. Same thing with the guys. Bobby heenan, gorilla monsoon, jesse ventura, paul e dangerously, cornette, etc, aren't mr universe playgirl models hired and put there for how pretty they are. You could get an older/bigger woman on commentary, and say she's a manager for somebody or she has a business interest if a certain person wins, and put her on commentary and involve her in the storylines and have her yelling at the wrestlers, and what she looked like would never matter. (Sorry for the long post, if I get on a topic the ideas start flowing) edit: the short answer: if she's presented as a "female commentator", the "female" part is being highlighted, and so that's where the attention would be. If she's there as a "commentator who happens to be female", she's there under her own merit as a commentator and part of the show just like everyone else. So it would depend on how she's being presented. Is it "and now for the female point of view....." or is it "as someone who's been in there fighting yourself, give your insight on this move being done and what they're doing right and wrong....". Those would get two different responses from the audience
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2021 17:29:27 GMT -5
Wow. There are still way too many people who spend too much time hanging on every moment waiting for Dave to say or do something stupid so they can jump and you "YOU SEE! HE'S SCUM! I TOLD YOU THAT!"
Like, he's not good at articulation and he has questionable opinions. But boy are there plenty of wrestlers who wish they could draw a quarter of the real life heat he gets.
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Venti
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Post by Venti on May 3, 2021 11:59:51 GMT -5
Convenient timing that this blows up shortly after it gets publicized that WWE sends released talent their gear in garbage bags. Anyway, this is yet another instance of of Meltzer's...shall we say, inelegant phrasing, when it comes to women. He has terminal foot-in-mouth disease - anyone who's listened to Wrestling Observer Radio for more than, like, a minute can attest that he's dreadful at communication - but if he is a misogynist, this quote isn't an example of it, no matter what racist Twitter accounts or SCJerk Vincels try to claim. Bro did you seriously just use "Vincels" unironically 😭
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2021 12:58:24 GMT -5
Bro did you seriously just use "Vincels" unironically 😭 If you can think of a better term for the rabid, tribal WWE fanboys on that shithole of a subreddit, please let me know.
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Post by Jumpin' Jesse Walsh on May 3, 2021 17:04:09 GMT -5
Mom, can you come and pick me up? We're having the Dave Meltzer discourse again.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on May 3, 2021 17:28:56 GMT -5
Bro did you seriously just use "Vincels" unironically 😭 If you can think of a better term for the rabid, tribal WWE fanboys on that shithole of a subreddit, please let me know.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2021 17:32:33 GMT -5
If you can think of a better term for the rabid, tribal WWE fanboys on that shithole of a subreddit, please let me know. "Vincels" is actually pretty damn great, IMO.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on May 15, 2021 8:44:18 GMT -5
So Uncle Dave decided to have on the reporter who falsely claimed Brodie died of COVID to explain his side. He pissed off a lot of folks with that. (Also Alvarez wasn't there for this, I'm pretty sure he wouldve had the good sense to say no.)
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 9:01:58 GMT -5
...yeah I've defended Meltzer a lot but I think I'm gonna' unsub after that, or at least swap my F4W website subscription for a YouTube subscription (which seems to be more Bryan and Vinny's thing). I don't read the newsletter anyway and barely ever listen to WOR because of how rambling and incoherent Meltzer is even on a good day. Now if he's platforming ****ing ghouls like Bruce Mitchell that gives me even less reason to give him my money.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on May 15, 2021 9:04:01 GMT -5
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on May 15, 2021 9:05:46 GMT -5
It's a strange move, to be sure. I'm genuinely baffled at this move. What is he trying to do here
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on May 15, 2021 9:07:55 GMT -5
It's a strange move, to be sure. I'm genuinely baffled at this move. What is he trying to do here Accidentally deleted my post rather than editing it, but yeah, like, unless the guy's going to apologize or something, I have no earthly idea what he can really say that Meltzer would really have to talk to him about. "I know I have literally no evidence but it's totes COVID. This was worth destroying my career for."
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 9:16:31 GMT -5
Accidentally deleted my post rather than editing it, but yeah, like, unless the guy's going to apologize or something, I have no earthly idea what he can really say that Meltzer would really have to talk to him about. "I know I have literally no evidence but it's totes COVID. This was worth destroying my career for." According to another board I lurk at, Mitchell, Garrett and Meltzer basically used the episode as a way to rail against Internet bullying and cancel culture. Ugh. According to that same board, Alvarez has been apologizing to people via email for the episode's existence.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on May 15, 2021 9:33:53 GMT -5
I'm not inherently against having someone on if you're going to be a good journalist and ask them the tough questions. Have the article in front of you and the timeline of events and push back on Bruce. But Dave didn't do that. I get that Dave has been friends with this guy for 30 years but you have to recognize when you can't be objective about something. I'm not going to unsub but I wouldn't blame people who do.
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petef3
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Post by petef3 on May 15, 2021 9:51:00 GMT -5
::pounds head against desk::
Okay, it's official--Twitter has broken Dave's brain. He's wasted so much time arguing with goofs acting on behalf of Prichard or Bischoff or Cornette or WWE that he's now taken any sign of backlash as validation. Bruce crossed that threshold a long time ago.
The only thing I can say in Dave's defense is that this whole mess started while his mother had just died, so I doubt he was paying much attention to what was going on besides Bruce writing a controversial column and getting fired over it. But that article was simply not up to publishable standards just on the most surface level of factual errors and typos, much less the underlying content. Even giving Bruce a platform to apologize would be fine with me, if it was a sincere one. But the complete bad-faith effort to claim that he never accused Amanda Huber of anything and never, ever, ever second-guessed the Hubers or AEW is a sign that he's not contrite at all.
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Post by Jaws the Shark on May 15, 2021 10:13:53 GMT -5
What the f*** was he thinking? Who told him this was a good idea? Usually I think the ardent criticism of him is unwarranted and blown way of out proportion, but he's dropped a major clanger here.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 10:24:22 GMT -5
Wow. There are still way too many people who spend too much time hanging on every moment waiting for Dave to say or do something stupid so they can jump and you "YOU SEE! HE'S SCUM! I TOLD YOU THAT!" Like, he's not good at articulation and he has questionable opinions. But boy are there plenty of wrestlers who wish they could draw a quarter of the real life heat he gets. My main actual issue with Meltzer is that he verbally speaks publically way too much. If you aren't a good talker, don't try to talk for a living. He should stick to writing. When you write you can look stuff over or have someone else look it over to make sure you aren't unintentionally saying something racist or stupid.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 10:58:36 GMT -5
Wow. There are still way too many people who spend too much time hanging on every moment waiting for Dave to say or do something stupid so they can jump and you "YOU SEE! HE'S SCUM! I TOLD YOU THAT!" Like, he's not good at articulation and he has questionable opinions. But boy are there plenty of wrestlers who wish they could draw a quarter of the real life heat he gets. My main actual issue with Meltzer is that he verbally speaks publically way too much. If you aren't a good talker, don't try to talk for a living. He should stick to writing. When you write you can look stuff over or have someone else look it over to make sure you aren't unintentionally saying something racist or stupid. The recent bit where he brought in the cretin who claimed Brodie Lee died from COVID hasn't helped much with this case. Personally, he has never really been someone I want to listen to speak on account he seems to lack a "common sense" filter. My complaint was more around how people devote too much time in their lives on one particular person, for better or worse. That said, what just happened should be a legitimate cause of concern since A) you gave Bruce Mitchell credibility and a platform and B) you're using the tired, hoary "cancel culture" defense with regards to your boneheaded mistakes in the past.
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