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Post by Cyno on Jan 30, 2022 15:31:30 GMT -5
The whole debate about chasing the mainstream and the mythical casual fan is weird as hell. WWE's Raw and AEW's Dynamite are regularly among the highest rated shows (if not THE highest rated shows when Monday Night Football isn't an issue) on their nights on all cable. Smackdown does really well for a Friday Night network show. Even AEW Rampage does well for what's been traditionally considered the Death Slot. Are they NFL popular? No, but no one else really is outside of event television like The Masked Singer or The Voice or whathaveyou. They're already mainstream. It also comes off like people just aren’t aware of where TV is right now. Even ignoring the “cable is dying” stuff, there’s so much out there that people are watching or doing that the aim really can’t be “let’s get as many people watching” because you’re not going to get the people who want to watch Twitch streams or bindge watch shows or watch Sidemen videos on YouTube because they’ve been catered to. If a celebrity comes on, people are going to see the celebrity and tune out afterwards since most of them aren’t going to watch wrestling and that’s fine. The issue comes in keeping that audience and getting them to spend money and coming to shows because that’s a much bigger barometer of success than TV ratings would ever be. Along with how the atmosphere is at a show because if you have a full house but nobody cares about anyone…that can affect everything else. Why buy merch for, say, Damian Priest when the audience right now doesn’t care for him, for example? Exactly. The people comparing the Raw ratings of 2022 with the Raw ratings of 1999 as if it's a 1:1 comparison are ignorant in how vastly different the media landscape is. Even without cord-cutting, people consume their media in so many different ways. Instead of sitting through 3 hours of Raw every Monday, they watch a few segments on Youtube they really want to see. Or they DVR it and watch later.
Now, where the downward trend is for WWE is that at the rate ratings are declining is at a faster pace than cable television viewership in general. Gate also isn't what it used to be at the regular live shows. But then, they can still fill up entire stadiums for Royal Rumbles and Wrestlemanias. They didn't do that even during the peak of the Attitude Era. Wrestlemania XIV-2000 were all held in regular arenas and it wasn't until X-Seven that they went back to the stadiums in the Astrodome.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 30, 2022 15:32:16 GMT -5
The whole debate about chasing the mainstream and the mythical casual fan is weird as hell. WWE's Raw and AEW's Dynamite are regularly among the highest rated shows (if not THE highest rated shows when Monday Night Football isn't an issue) on their nights on all cable. Smackdown does really well for a Friday Night network show. Even AEW Rampage does well for what's been traditionally considered the Death Slot. Are they NFL popular? No, but no one else really is outside of event television like The Masked Singer or The Voice or whathaveyou. They're already mainstream. The only wrestling show between the two promotions that does poorly is NXT. I'd say it was by design, but it's meant to reach a younger audience and it's most popular among the 50+ crowd and has an older median viewing age than any other WWE show, so it really isn't. It just seems like the difficulty is in trying to correlate WWE still being a top cable draw and being kind of mainstream with the product itself being at such a creative low point. Like, how is it in any way whatsoever even the tiniest bit successful?
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Post by koreycaskets on Jan 30, 2022 15:32:55 GMT -5
I don't hate the Bellas. The YES YES YES spot was really cool , people ain't gonna forget the American Dragon but... Why so dominant in the rumble ? Wtf?
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nate5054
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Post by nate5054 on Jan 30, 2022 15:33:44 GMT -5
The women's match sucked cause every "legend" got eliminated pretty much right away. And of course Charlotte makes it to the Bottom 2... Why was she there again? She already has a title for christ sake. As for the men's... Holy shit. What an absolute disaster. By far the worst Rumble match of all time. Why they decided to fill it up with tag team guys and the likes of Madcap Moss, Rick Boogs, Dominic Mysterio and others is beyond me. It was literally full of jobbers. Then Lesnar came out as we all predicted and ugh... 5 hours of my life I'll never get back. Absolute suck show. I thought Boogs (who I've never heard of having not watched in ages) was the most entertaining part of the match. Take that observation as you will though. It could be the ultimate in damning with faint praise.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jan 30, 2022 15:36:06 GMT -5
Allegedly WWE wanted to do something with Dom eliminating Rey, to set up a WM match, but Rey outright refused Given WWE’s recent tendency to leak “rumors” to the media to make themselves look better in situations that have received fan backlash, I don’t even believe that for a zeptosecond. Why make so many allusions to something that Rey had made clear he wasn’t going to do? Who knows. Maybe his mum dying made Vince sour on a parental fight - maybe Rey said yes, then said no later - maybe the equally alleged story of Theory/Shane getting a match made Vince decide he didnt want two parental issues thing going on. Current WWE is a cluster, everything could be lies or true at any given moment
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2022 15:44:55 GMT -5
The whole debate about chasing the mainstream and the mythical casual fan is weird as hell. WWE's Raw and AEW's Dynamite are regularly among the highest rated shows (if not THE highest rated shows when Monday Night Football isn't an issue) on their nights on all cable. Smackdown does really well for a Friday Night network show. Even AEW Rampage does well for what's been traditionally considered the Death Slot. Are they NFL popular? No, but no one else really is outside of event television like The Masked Singer or The Voice or whathaveyou. They're already mainstream. The only wrestling show between the two promotions that does poorly is NXT. I'd say it was by design, but it's meant to reach a younger audience and it's most popular among the 50+ crowd and has an older median viewing age than any other WWE show, so it really isn't. It just seems like the difficulty is in trying to correlate WWE still being a top cable draw and being kind of mainstream with the product itself being at such a creative low point. Like, how is it in any way whatsoever even the tiniest bit successful? I think it’s because WWE has proven it has a floor of around 2 million viewers who will watch whatever it puts out, no matter how godawful, because it’s what they’ve been doing on Monday nights for 31 years. And having that level of reliable live viewership on a week-to-week basis in the era of streaming and on-demand entertainment makes WWE a very valuable commodity. But, the house of cards just feels like it’s going to collapse at some point if the product doesn’t improve. In spite of its protestations to the contrary, WWE is a wrestling company. Making every decision with an eye towards non-wrestling fans and, at times, seeming to have active disdain for wrestling fans is not a sustainable business model for a wrestling company. Particularly now that there is an increasingly viable alternative that, if nothing else, embraces the quirky, niche, weirdness of pro wrestling.
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Post by Tiffany Stratton's Daddy on Jan 30, 2022 15:49:39 GMT -5
Are they even gonna address who Lesnar took #30 from? It would've been classic to have a random person in at 30. Hell, have Sami Zayn be #30 and Lesnar come in and absolutely destroy him, taking his spot. It's a conspiracy! He or either of The Usos to stick it to Roman
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jan 30, 2022 15:59:47 GMT -5
What makes the casual fan mythical? Couldn’t it be argued that the attitude era’s boom was dependent on the casual fan?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2022 16:10:00 GMT -5
What makes the casual fan mythical? Couldn’t it be argued that the attitude era’s boom was dependent on the casual fan? In 1997, there was no on-demand streaming. You had to watch what was on, when it was on. So, the concept of someone channel surfing and deciding to watch, or seeing something on the covers of TV Guide and deciding to watch still existed. They don’t now. There’s really no circumstance where someone just happens upon wrestling anymore. You have to have an interest in wrestling and seek it out to watch it. So, the “casual fan” absolutely exists, but it damn sure shouldn’t be what you’re building your company around in 2022.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jan 30, 2022 16:13:43 GMT -5
What makes the casual fan mythical? Couldn’t it be argued that the attitude era’s boom was dependent on the casual fan? In 1997, there was no on-demand streaming. You had to watch what was on, when it was on. So, the concept of someone channel surfing and deciding to watch, or seeing something on the covers of TV Guide and deciding to watch still existed. They don’t now. There’s really no circumstance where someone just happens upon wrestling anymore. You have to have an interest in wrestling and seek it out to watch it. So, the “casual fan” absolutely exists, but it damn sure shouldn’t be what you’re building your company around in 2022. First and foremost thanks for the mature rebuttal. This makes a whole lot of sense. However, I think Vince is still chasing after the casual fan because when that style does hit, it’s money.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2022 16:24:18 GMT -5
In 1997, there was no on-demand streaming. You had to watch what was on, when it was on. So, the concept of someone channel surfing and deciding to watch, or seeing something on the covers of TV Guide and deciding to watch still existed. They don’t now. There’s really no circumstance where someone just happens upon wrestling anymore. You have to have an interest in wrestling and seek it out to watch it. So, the “casual fan” absolutely exists, but it damn sure shouldn’t be what you’re building your company around in 2022. First and foremost thanks for the mature rebuttal. This makes a whole lot of sense. However, I think Vince is still chasing after the casual fan because when that style does hit, it’s money. The issue as I see it is that Vince’s idea of what the “casual wrestling fan” is, is to convert non-wrestling fans into “WWE fans.” But, as much as Vince desperately wants it to be different with his “WWE Universe,” the number of people who would consider themselves “WWE fans” but not “wrestling fans” is minuscule to the point of being nonexistent. Vince seems to think doing stuff like promoting Bad Bunny will get people to be like “wow, WWE is working with a real celebrity. It must be way cooler than that lame, nerdy WRESTLING.” When, in reality, the reaction tends to be “Bad Bunny is WRESTLING? He must really need the money.” It’s cool to try and make the product appeal to a wider audience, but when you try and pander your wrestling company to non-fans, it just feels like a recipe for disaster. To use an example I used earlier, it would be like if Pepsi started building its brand around coffee drinkers, or something.
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Post by Savage Gambino on Jan 30, 2022 16:25:38 GMT -5
I thought the women’s Rumble was great. The men’s overall was fun but they stuck all of the midcarders/tag teams with little heat in the middle which made it drag. Also could have used one or two old-time legends to pop the crowd during that time period. Some of the choices of who was in the Men’s Rumble were odd as well. So many tag teams when Cesaro, Balor, Edge and Miz are on the roster. Balor is in a horrible spot, basically everything about him recently is Vince sees nothing in him, basically what Jeff Hardy was doing yet they don't want to let him go because he might be a star somewhere else. Wild to think Vince is sitting on a guy because he doesn't think he can be a star, but he won't just turn him loose because he KNOWS he'll set the wrestling world on fire the minute he's a free agent. WWE has essentially become a paid purgatory, a talent graveyard where heat goes to die while folks waste their peak years in catering, when they're not occasionally looking at the lights to put over part timers. It's a sad state of affairs.
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Post by Legion on Jan 30, 2022 16:30:11 GMT -5
Vince needs a cultural zeitgeist he can attach himself too.
Hulkamania and the pro USA stuff was all linked to what Reagan was doing.
The Attitude Era was the long delayed backlash to all that.
But now society is split, there is a very clear dichotomy to society and there is nothing for wrestling to grab on to.
Chuck in that he can't take the sort of risks he used to be able to do due to the financial culpability that comes with being a traded company, and he doesnt have that shock and awe factor a casual is going to want to come see.
So all he has is names and nostalgia.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jan 30, 2022 16:40:57 GMT -5
Vince needs a cultural zeitgeist he can attach himself too. Hulkamania and the pro USA stuff was all linked to what Reagan was doing. The Attitude Era was the long delayed backlash to all that. But now society is split, there is a very clear dichotomy to society and there is nothing for wrestling to grab on to. Chuck in that he can't take the sort of risks he used to be able to do due to the financial culpability that comes with being a traded company, and he doesnt have that shock and awe factor a casual is going to want to come see. So all he has is names and nostalgia. I mean there is an obvious zeitgeist he can grab on to which has a lot of overlap with wrestlers themselves. Nerd culture. But Vince won't cause nerds.
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Post by Cyno on Jan 30, 2022 16:42:15 GMT -5
First and foremost thanks for the mature rebuttal. This makes a whole lot of sense. However, I think Vince is still chasing after the casual fan because when that style does hit, it’s money. The issue as I see it is that Vince’s idea of what the “casual wrestling fan” is, is to convert non-wrestling fans into “WWE fans.” But, as much as Vince desperately wants it to be different with his “WWE Universe,” the number of people who would consider themselves “WWE fans” but not “wrestling fans” is minuscule to the point of being nonexistent. Vince seems to think doing stuff like promoting Bad Bunny will get people to be like “wow, WWE is working with a real celebrity. It must be way cooler than that lame, nerdy WRESTLING.” When, in reality, the reaction tends to be “Bad Bunny is WRESTLING? He must really need the money.” It’s cool to try and make the product appeal to a wider audience, but when you try and pander your wrestling company to non-fans, it just feels like a recipe for disaster. To use an example I used earlier, it would be like if Pepsi started building its brand around coffee drinkers, or something. WWE's presentation the last few years comes off like it's embarrassed to be pro wrestling, which results in what felt to me like a sterile, corporate product. And there's long been the idea that Vince McMahon desperately wants to be seen as way more than just "That Wrestling Guy" with all his other projects he tried to get into like the WBF, XFL, and even WWE Films.
A big part of why AEW, mid-majors like Impact and ROH, and even the more successful super-indies like GCW and PWG have been able to find and keep their audiences is because they embrace the absurdity of the artform of pro wrestling. Hell, Danhausen was literally a worldwide trending topic on Twitter after his AEW debut and he's the most "pro wrestling" character ever.
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Post by asuka007 on Jan 30, 2022 16:43:51 GMT -5
Vince’s thinking is like 30 years out of date in general.
Most of what he wants, just ain’t coming back.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2022 16:52:34 GMT -5
The issue as I see it is that Vince’s idea of what the “casual wrestling fan” is, is to convert non-wrestling fans into “WWE fans.” But, as much as Vince desperately wants it to be different with his “WWE Universe,” the number of people who would consider themselves “WWE fans” but not “wrestling fans” is minuscule to the point of being nonexistent. Vince seems to think doing stuff like promoting Bad Bunny will get people to be like “wow, WWE is working with a real celebrity. It must be way cooler than that lame, nerdy WRESTLING.” When, in reality, the reaction tends to be “Bad Bunny is WRESTLING? He must really need the money.” It’s cool to try and make the product appeal to a wider audience, but when you try and pander your wrestling company to non-fans, it just feels like a recipe for disaster. To use an example I used earlier, it would be like if Pepsi started building its brand around coffee drinkers, or something. WWE's presentation the last few years comes off like it's embarrassed to be pro wrestling, which results in what felt to me like a sterile, corporate product. And there's long been the idea that Vince McMahon desperately wants to be seen as way more than just "That Wrestling Guy" with all his other projects he tried to get into like the WBF, XFL, and even WWE Films. A big part of why AEW, mid-majors like Impact and ROH, and even the more successful super-indies like GCW and PWG have been able to find and keep their audiences is because they embrace the absurdity of the artform of pro wrestling. Hell, Danhausen was literally a worldwide trending topic on Twitter after his AEW debut and he's the most "pro wrestling" character ever.
It’s why I mostly stopped watching. I’m a 33-year-old man, and I enjoy professional wrestling. I don’t need the world’s largest wrestling company constantly signaling to me how lame and weird it is to enjoy wrestling. The tone of the conversion from NXT to NXT 2.0 is rife with that attitude too, but I suppose that another conversation.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Jan 30, 2022 17:00:42 GMT -5
I don't hate the Bellas. The YES YES YES spot was really cool , people ain't gonna forget the American Dragon but... Why so dominant in the rumble ? Wtf? Because they’re the only two working as a team?
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Jan 30, 2022 17:19:55 GMT -5
I don't hate the Bellas. The YES YES YES spot was really cool , people ain't gonna forget the American Dragon but... Why so dominant in the rumble ? Wtf? People power is my guess
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Post by koreycaskets on Jan 30, 2022 17:40:48 GMT -5
I don't hate the Bellas. The YES YES YES spot was really cool , people ain't gonna forget the American Dragon but... Why so dominant in the rumble ? Wtf? Because they’re the only two working as a team? Riot Squad as a team got thrown out in 43 seconds
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