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Post by kingoftheindies on Apr 18, 2022 6:21:26 GMT -5
I don’t care how people feel about AEW or any company, really. AEW’s not going away anytime soon. It’s a moot point. As long as I’m not being branded as a morally wrong person for still enjoying WWE as well because of the EVIL DARK LORD VINCE, I’m happy. From when I've seen of WWE on screen recently I don't see a lot super bad outside of repetitive matches or some things that WWE is pushing hard not getting over as they hoped but I don't see anything super offensive on tv
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xCompackx
Wade Wilson
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Post by xCompackx on Apr 18, 2022 7:16:41 GMT -5
I think wrestling in general has a problem with tribalism and a desire to compare what one company does with what another company does. The Nyla/Rosa cake segment isn't a new idea AEW cooked up in the dark labs of Tony Khan's office; a heel getting comeuppance is pretty standard fare. I don't know how you compare this to what WWE did with Toni Storm where the point of that segment was making Toni look bad by getting whipped cream on her face.
And the Danhausen thing, I mean... YouTube is right there. Bringing someone new in and expecting fans to have somewhat of an idea who they are dates back to, at minimum, the 80s.
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Ben Wyatt
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Apr 18, 2022 8:29:00 GMT -5
I don’t care how people feel about AEW or any company, really. AEW’s not going away anytime soon. It’s a moot point. As long as I’m not being branded as a morally wrong person for still enjoying WWE as well because of the EVIL DARK LORD VINCE, I’m happy. This is where I stand. I like both companies. "No, you can't like both". Nah. You can,and I do.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Apr 18, 2022 9:32:29 GMT -5
All I try to do as a wrestling fan is keep an open mind and as neutral a starting point as possible. If WWE do a good show, I’ll judge it on its merits the same way as if AEW do a good show. If AEW do a bad show, I’ll judge it the same way as if WWE do a bad show.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Apr 18, 2022 9:40:10 GMT -5
I mean I`m not gonna lie, I hate WWE but not because of the screen product , I will always say WWE is a morally bankrupt corporation that I cant personally support again even if I stop watching AEW or Wrestling. So I do try to keep any critiscism outside of that to a small amount, I'm sure the product currently is good. And I try to seperate that feeling when talking about WWE talent and shows thenselves.
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Apr 18, 2022 11:04:33 GMT -5
Where I pretty much fall on it is it's extremely rare I watch WWE anymore, but I always kind of at least keep a passing eye on it in the hopes that one day it'll be good and won't just be an eternal showcase for someone who is after years of being overpushed probably my single least favorite wrestler of all time. On the flipside when I watch AEW - more often than not, even if I haven't really been doing so the past few weeks - I generally enjoy it on the face of it but am usually not particularly invested if only because I think there's only like a third of the roster at most I actually give a damn about and think the glacial storytelling is almost universally a chore you kind of just have to tolerate in the face of usually pretty good matches.
Like, I watch AEW because it's better than nothing but if another wrestling company that was more to my tastes arose or if WWE magically became a watchable product then I'd probably stop paying any mind to it whatsoever because really at the end of the day my ideal wrestling company is, "WWE but it's good."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2022 11:21:57 GMT -5
streamable.com/kg1cjsThe basis of it is how thin skinned AEW fans are and can't handle any negative feedback on AEW. His 2 big talking points are... Danhausen and how they have done nothing to present him at all, he hasn't said very nice very evil, you're on tv most people don't know who the f*** he even is, hell that he's even a wrestler at this point. The Rosa /Nyla cake spot and how if that had been done on NXT all we'd be talking about is how WWE is f***ing stupid and making people look terrible. I personally think it's kinda sad that in the era we live in we can't expect fans to watch a couple youtube videos to see if they like someone..nope. You should never expect fans of anything to have to go out of their way to watch a YouTube video to understand the show they're watching. It isn't that people don't have the knowledge or ability to watch youtube, its that they shouldn't have to, and there are only so many hours in a day. I also think its hilarious that Alvarez said AEW fans are thin skinned and can't handle negative feedback, so you made a thread about how you can't stand his criticism. Irony, folks.
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Post by Celexa Bliss 54 on Apr 18, 2022 11:30:42 GMT -5
I'll address his two specific takes first:
1. Yeah, Danhausen wasn't introduced well. He literally popped out from under the ring during a main event and it was meant to be a huge deal. However, you can say that about a lot of the "Forbidden Door" debuts. Not everyone is a diehard internet smark. Not everyone knows Nick Gage, Jeff Cobb, Minoru Suzuki, Jay White, Rocky Romero, hell, even KENTA, since he was never on mainstream WWE programming. But something they do very well is tell you who these guys are, while building their own characters, which still honor what they've done outside of AEW. Is it perfect? Hell no. But Danhausen and Suzuki are two of the most over guys on the show whenever they show up, so something must be working.
2. I was EXTREMELY vocal in my utter dislike of the Toni Storm pie incident. Here's why that was bad and MOST other cake incidents in wrestling are not. In Toni's case, they were trying to present her as a threat to Charlotte's title. So they had Charlotte throw pies in her face, with no retaliation from Toni, who just stood there, looking sad. They killed Toni dead right there, because that was literally the first major appearance we got from her on Smackdown and she's made to look like a fool. Normally, a cake or pie fight is used to humiliate a character who deserves their comeuppance, or, in the case of the much-maligned Piggy James story, to evoke sympathy for the babyface. Vickie getting a cake shoved in her face was fine, because she's been absolutely insufferable and it allowed Thunder Rosa to get a bit a retribution for Nyla ruining her victory party. It didn't hurt Vickie, because she's a side character who we want to see be shut up by the face, but we usually can't, because she doesn't take bumps normally.
EDIT: oh shit, it WAS Nyla that got hit with the pie, wasn't it? I mixed it up with the punch out, thinking they were separate segments. Either way, I still don't have a big issue with it. Thunder needed to get something over on Nyla and Vickie. Nyla is still going to be a monster, so that didn't make her look bad at all. Hell, the fact that I didn't even remember her being the one to get the cake should say it all lol
I think the big issue with AEW fans as a whole is the same problem with their roster and their management. Everyone has a thin skin when it comes to the slightest bit of criticism that comes their way. Tony Khan is notorious for this and it doesn't necessarily paint him in a great light. The thing is, when people do levy criticisms at AEW, sometimes it is just trolls looking for a reaction. But other times, when it's stuff like the Matt Hardy concussion incident, or the botched explosion at Revolution 2021, it's valid criticism. For what it's worth, at least Matt was OK and hasn't suffered any ill-effects that we know of. And they pivoted from the explosion so well that within two weeks, most people forgot about it. The other issues we talk about a lot, like the women's division and diversity in the main event scene, yeah, those are big problems. I do feel they've made strides towards fixing them, but they are things that still need a lot of work. Tony tweeting about the diversity thing after Swole called him out wasn't a great look for him. But we have seen more main events featuring people of color prominently. And ROH's first major storyline is a step in the right direction, featuring Lethal, Gresham, Joe, Dutt, Singh and Moriarty. They just need to hire a publicist to check Tony's tweets before he hits the post button lol
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Post by stoptheclocks on Apr 18, 2022 11:35:50 GMT -5
I think this is part of the problem though, right? Way too much time is spent diving into people's motivations, and whether their criticism is legitimate or can be written off as being trolling or whatever. And that's what tends to derail AEW threads. Like, you yourself are one of the most active people in those kinds of threads, usually pointing out the positives for AEW. On the WWE board, the majority of what you post is overwhelmingly negative. But I don't think you would consider that to be in bad faith - you just happen to enjoy one show and not enjoy another and here are your takes. Basically, people should take any arguments made on here at face value and discuss them as such, or just ignore it and move on. Yes it's part of the issue, but the issue does stem from this stuff, so much so you can read the pinned post and find out just how common it actually still tends to be even on FAN itself Taking stuff at face value I do agree should be something done more often and ignoring stuff is something I think we're trying to do more as a whole on the Boards to mediate these issues, and there are plenty of negative takes that are legitimate across both boards, but the whole bad faith and concern trolling issues? They're rampant enough to warrant stuff like that, and it's why people have even dove into those motivations in the first place, and it's not fair to posters who have legitimate criticisms either, tbh, that others have done that and burned the Board let alone other places online as well from it too. Who gets to be the arbiter of which people are posting legitimate criticisms and which are trolling though? As I say, you're way more negative about the WWE than even the most negative poster is on here about AEW (which remains, overwhelmingly well liked). It just feeds into the idea that only bots or trolls could criticise AEW. Anyway, I agree with you about Danhausen. I think the effect a single promo or vignette would have is way overstated by Bryan. To his point, any casual fans tuning in the following week then won't have seen that - so do you have to recap it every week? I don't think you're any more likely to find his gimmick entertaining if you know his backstory.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2022 11:52:04 GMT -5
Can't comment on recent events, like the cake incident, but will give my 2 cents.
AEW fans, the for the most part (not all), were fans of wrestling from NJPW and ROH. Dave Meltzer, who was relatively respected at the time, praised ROH and NJPW and many fans share the same beliefs. Not saying a hivemind existed, but they believe that pro-wrestling, as seen by Meltzer and others, should be the standard. For a very long time, there was only one presentation of what pro-wrestling, and these people disagreed with it.
When AEW launched, many people out in the wrestling community praised it after having to deal with WWE sub-standard product for years. Got to remember, despite TNA's best efforts, they were not getting the job done. Vince has a way that he wants his product to be presented, and that does not go well for wrestling fans, especially those that remember WCW and the days of the territories. To the AEW fans, this is what pro-wrestling should be. So it is understandable when they get upset over criticism, as it would seem that they were wrong and Vince was right, when in reality both can be wrong.
What eventually happens is that every fandom has their haters. Jim Cornette, along with smaller podcasters have been critical of AEW, which led to an anti-AEW sentiment that have been happening since 2019. I personally do not think Jim is trolling, however he is direct and also stuck in his own ways. He has praised CM Punk AEW tenure, for example.
Yes, AEW fans are sensitive, but my personal experience is that bullying happens because of the reactions of the ones being bullied. Trolls especially feed on this type of insecurity. A lot of criticism, whether their opinions were sincere or just plain trolling. It does not help that there is a small portion of AEW fans that want to see a new Monday Night War, and putting down WWE at every breathe they have. All that does is lead to more trolling.
My only advice to give is enjoy AEW and stay away from negativity. Stay away from Reddit and Twitter. The company is not going anywhere, as Warner expected them to score 500K viewers and they doubled that. As far as criticism goes, take a deep breath, and then ask yourself is it worth being angry about? At the end of the day, it is a wrestling program, entertainment. It is not something to kill or be killed for.
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Post by Jumpin' Jesse Walsh on Apr 18, 2022 11:56:34 GMT -5
It never ceases to be incredibly f**king funny watching WWE and AEW fans fight to the death online while the wrestlers mostly just chill out and be friends with each other.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Apr 18, 2022 12:10:01 GMT -5
I don’t like the idea of a “standard” existing. Pro wrestling is too subjective an art form for that.
More often than not I can find something to enjoy in almost any wrestling company if I look hard enough. Even Dixie era TNA had bad but still funny stuff.
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r.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bye
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Post by r. on Apr 18, 2022 12:15:58 GMT -5
This is all fans, Name dropping was just to get it traction.
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pinja
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Post by pinja on Apr 18, 2022 12:25:59 GMT -5
Remember when Virgil first appeared in the Divina Commedia and Excalibur was like "It's Virgil!" and JR was like "Who?" and Excalibur was like "Virgil!"?
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Apr 18, 2022 12:36:20 GMT -5
Yes it's part of the issue, but the issue does stem from this stuff, so much so you can read the pinned post and find out just how common it actually still tends to be even on FAN itself Taking stuff at face value I do agree should be something done more often and ignoring stuff is something I think we're trying to do more as a whole on the Boards to mediate these issues, and there are plenty of negative takes that are legitimate across both boards, but the whole bad faith and concern trolling issues? They're rampant enough to warrant stuff like that, and it's why people have even dove into those motivations in the first place, and it's not fair to posters who have legitimate criticisms either, tbh, that others have done that and burned the Board let alone other places online as well from it too. Who gets to be the arbiter of which people are posting legitimate criticisms and which are trolling though? As I say, you're way more negative about the WWE than even the most negative poster is on here about AEW (which remains, overwhelmingly well liked). It just feeds into the idea that only bots or trolls could criticise AEW. Anyway, I agree with you about Danhausen. I think the effect a single promo or vignette would have is way overstated by Bryan. To his point, any casual fans tuning in the following week then won't have seen that - so do you have to recap it every week? I don't think you're any more likely to find his gimmick entertaining if you know his backstory. For the first point , I feel like I observed enough in this forum to have good feeling of who comes just to troll. I usually just let it play out and if things get out of hand I report and or call then out after they already made a big fuss with a bunch of posters but I like to try difusing arguments and heat usually (that also goes beyond this forum and wrestling topics) , you can talk a little and observe and come to your own conclusions. And second point is what I said about AEW caring more about dropping characters and expecting viewers to understand from how they act,without needing packages. But I feel like in some cases a good introduction could lay out a better groundwork for the character itself
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Apr 18, 2022 12:38:42 GMT -5
streamable.com/kg1cjsThe basis of it is how thin skinned AEW fans are and can't handle any negative feedback on AEW. His 2 big talking points are... Danhausen and how they have done nothing to present him at all, he hasn't said very nice very evil, you're on tv most people don't know who the f*** he even is, hell that he's even a wrestler at this point. The Rosa /Nyla cake spot and how if that had been done on NXT all we'd be talking about is how WWE is f***ing stupid and making people look terrible. I personally think it's kinda sad that in the era we live in we can't expect fans to watch a couple youtube videos to see if they like someone..nope. You should never expect fans of anything to have to go out of their way to watch a YouTube video to understand the show they're watching. It isn't that people don't have the knowledge or ability to watch youtube, its that they shouldn't have to, and there are only so many hours in a day. I also think its hilarious that Alvarez said AEW fans are thin skinned and can't handle negative feedback, so you made a thread about how you can't stand his criticism. Irony, folks. For example this is the kinda shit that makes it worse. OP has nothing but civilized and ADDRESSED,talked about the criticsm,he didnt bitch or whine. He didnt even comment on the part of AEW fans being thin skinned, literally the only thing he said is that people look up who the like online and you attacked him for it when everyone was doing fine.Dont do it. This makes thing a 180 that when someone wants to talk about a critic it becomes a "you cant handle it" scenario which is pretty insulting and dishonest.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Apr 18, 2022 12:56:07 GMT -5
I also think its hilarious that Alvarez said AEW fans are thin skinned and can't handle negative feedback, so you made a thread about how you can't stand his criticism. Irony, folks. "If you make a thread to discuss what a notable person said you're proving you're a sad screamy angerbaby" is absolutely not a contribution to the discourse that helps anything.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2022 13:31:40 GMT -5
I also think its hilarious that Alvarez said AEW fans are thin skinned and can't handle negative feedback, so you made a thread about how you can't stand his criticism. Irony, folks. "If you make a thread to discuss what a notable person said you're proving you're a sad screamy angerbaby" is absolutely not a contribution to the discourse that helps anything. Well that's good, because I wasn't trying to help anything either way.
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Post by stoptheclocks on Apr 18, 2022 13:37:23 GMT -5
Who gets to be the arbiter of which people are posting legitimate criticisms and which are trolling though? As I say, you're way more negative about the WWE than even the most negative poster is on here about AEW (which remains, overwhelmingly well liked). It just feeds into the idea that only bots or trolls could criticise AEW. Anyway, I agree with you about Danhausen. I think the effect a single promo or vignette would have is way overstated by Bryan. To his point, any casual fans tuning in the following week then won't have seen that - so do you have to recap it every week? I don't think you're any more likely to find his gimmick entertaining if you know his backstory. For the first point , I feel like I observed enough in this forum to have good feeling of who comes just to troll. I usually just let it play out and if things get out of hand I report and or call then out after they already made a big fuss with a bunch of posters but I like to try difusing arguments and heat usually (that also goes beyond this forum and wrestling topics) , you can talk a little and observe and come to your own conclusions. And second point is what I said about AEW caring more about dropping characters and expecting viewers to understand from how they act,without needing packages. But I feel like in some cases a good introduction could lay out a better groundwork for the character itself Yeah, and I think it's probably a bit of a case by case basis. If you're gimmick is 'this guy was a big deal in Japan', then you're probably going to need a little more filling in the blanks before you care about them. But if you're a wacky comedy character running around trying to curse people... I don't think a huge amount of explanation is required.
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
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Post by lucas_lee on Apr 18, 2022 14:15:52 GMT -5
"If you make a thread to discuss what a notable person said you're proving you're a sad screamy angerbaby" is absolutely not a contribution to the discourse that helps anything. Well that's good, because I wasn't trying to help anything either way. Maybe you should read the room and stop posting stuff to antagonize people
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