AEW's week-to-week booking has degraded

[Teemu]

May 14, 2022 22:38:38 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

In general I think at this point AEW could comfortably go like six years without any tournaments and I'd have zero complaints. It feels like there's always one going on and it's not a trope I've ever been especially fond of to begin with. Doesn't really help that the current ones seem to have no stakes whatsoever.

In theory, tourneys are good because they give match stakes. And a big reason why I tune out of weekly wrestling TV is pointless matches that go on for three hours and have no stakes. But yea, to your point, tournaments have always been a proven non-draw in wrestling. It's why Vince quit doing the King of the Ring. So the world at large seems to agree with you.

[Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby]

I don't really see a degradation so much as consistent flaws that are more apparent at some points than others. Like, I don't feel like right now is a particular low point, but I also feel like my general expectation of Dynamite includes a certain amount of perfunctory storylines, safe booking choices, overuse of some talent, underuse of other talent, and rubber band pacing where some stories crawl between PPVs and others are thrown together and resolved super quickly.

[nihilismizhawt]

I think the booking is as good as its ever been. People complained about Sammy versus Matt Hardy going too long, too many dark cults, Cody Rhodes matches being overbooked, I even remember people saying Kenny Omega was being poorly booked.

I could go on. If theres anything thats consistent, its ignoring all the good stuff to complain about the one or two bad things. People are obsessed with critiques, and forget all the things that they were critical about a month ago.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

May 14, 2022 22:26:05 GMT -5 oxbaker said:

May 14, 2022 21:51:04 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

The storylines have been lacking, outside of Wardlow-MJF. Punk-Hangman has had a decent promo or two but there’s not really a compelling story there. The rest of the card has been either storylines that aren’t hitting (the TNT title picture, the HOB/Death Triangle, the JAS, the BCC) or randomness with no story (the tournaments, the random ROH title matches). It makes for good shows some weeks, weak shows other weeks, and an overall lack of cohesion and story progression.

Hopefully they can focus better the next two weeks going into the PPV.

So far to me, the storyline for Punk and Hangman is (kayfabe) Punk wants the title and Hangman is really angry about that. At least that’s what’s come across to me. But I don’t really get why he doesn’t expect Punk to want to win the title, same as any other challenger. I’m looking forward to the match because they’re both talented and should mesh well, but I don’t see the real beef here — the ‘why’ — that makes me care here beyond just ‘should be a good wrestling match.’

To me, the real (non-kayfabe) angle here is just ‘are they going to go ahead and put the strap on Punk and end what has been a pretty meh title reign or not’? It’s more of a smark-directed thing, not just ‘who will win’ but ‘what are they booking’ — it’s a fine line, sort of, but I see more speculation about future lineage of the title (oh, will they put it on Punk and have him lose it to MJF, or could Hangan keep it for a little longer and blah blah blah) than I do investment in this particular angle.

The storyline for Hangman being aggressive goes back well before Punk though. He started ignoring Dark Order, he got aggressive with Cole when he wouldn't go away, he fought Archer in a deathmatch too. Hangman is doing everything he can to keep the title, the title is his vice, where the beer used to be. He loses the belt, it's back to square one in his mind. Where he's "Never been as good as Omega" which Cole said to him, right before Hangman snapped and planted him through the tables.

It's not that Hangman's not expecting Punk to be a challenger, it's that Hangman's not letting Punk walk in and be all goody goody sportsmanlike at this point, when Hangman's run himself ragged trying to keep it, and still gets scrutinized at every turn. He's upset he's being viewed as an underdog, upset that people are already counting him out, and this invests me greatly into the storyline, but I've also been watching Hangman's struggles from the beginning, and it feels like after his triumph, he's realizing that all good things can't last forever, and he has no backup plan in his mind if he can't beat Punk.

[polarbearpete]

May 14, 2022 23:41:11 GMT -5 Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] said:

May 14, 2022 22:26:05 GMT -5 oxbaker said:

So far to me, the storyline for Punk and Hangman is (kayfabe) Punk wants the title and Hangman is really angry about that. At least that’s what’s come across to me. But I don’t really get why he doesn’t expect Punk to want to win the title, same as any other challenger. I’m looking forward to the match because they’re both talented and should mesh well, but I don’t see the real beef here — the ‘why’ — that makes me care here beyond just ‘should be a good wrestling match.’

To me, the real (non-kayfabe) angle here is just ‘are they going to go ahead and put the strap on Punk and end what has been a pretty meh title reign or not’? It’s more of a smark-directed thing, not just ‘who will win’ but ‘what are they booking’ — it’s a fine line, sort of, but I see more speculation about future lineage of the title (oh, will they put it on Punk and have him lose it to MJF, or could Hangan keep it for a little longer and blah blah blah) than I do investment in this particular angle.

The storyline for Hangman being aggressive goes back well before Punk though. He started ignoring Dark Order, he got aggressive with Cole when he wouldn't go away, he fought Archer in a deathmatch too. Hangman is doing everything he can to keep the title, the title is his vice, where the beer used to be. He loses the belt, it's back to square one in his mind. Where he's "Never been as good as Omega" which Cole said to him, right before Hangman snapped and planted him through the tables.

It's not that Hangman's not expecting Punk to be a challenger, it's that Hangman's not letting Punk walk in and be all goody goody sportsmanlike at this point, when Hangman's run himself ragged trying to keep it, and still gets scrutinized at every turn. He's upset he's being viewed as an underdog, upset that people are already counting him out, and this invests me greatly into the storyline, but I've also been watching Hangman's struggles from the beginning, and it feels like after his triumph, he's realizing that all good things can't last forever, and he has no backup plan in his mind if he can't beat Punk.

Most of that is you just creating/expounding the narrative from what they have given us, which is very little to sink our teeth into in this feud.

Still 2 weeks left in the build so hopefully they do something to turn it up a bit.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

May 14, 2022 23:49:42 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

May 14, 2022 23:41:11 GMT -5 Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] said:

The storyline for Hangman being aggressive goes back well before Punk though. He started ignoring Dark Order, he got aggressive with Cole when he wouldn't go away, he fought Archer in a deathmatch too. Hangman is doing everything he can to keep the title, the title is his vice, where the beer used to be. He loses the belt, it's back to square one in his mind. Where he's "Never been as good as Omega" which Cole said to him, right before Hangman snapped and planted him through the tables.

It's not that Hangman's not expecting Punk to be a challenger, it's that Hangman's not letting Punk walk in and be all goody goody sportsmanlike at this point, when Hangman's run himself ragged trying to keep it, and still gets scrutinized at every turn. He's upset he's being viewed as an underdog, upset that people are already counting him out, and this invests me greatly into the storyline, but I've also been watching Hangman's struggles from the beginning, and it feels like after his triumph, he's realizing that all good things can't last forever, and he has no backup plan in his mind if he can't beat Punk.

Most of that is you just creating/expounding the narrative from what they have given us, which is very little to sink our teeth into in this feud.

Still 2 weeks left in the build so hopefully they do something to turn it up a bit.

It seems pretty obvious to me from watching it and why he reacted like he did, but they have that and the entire Road To DON Special too.

[oxbaker]

May 14, 2022 23:49:42 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

May 14, 2022 23:41:11 GMT -5 Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] said:

The storyline for Hangman being aggressive goes back well before Punk though. He started ignoring Dark Order, he got aggressive with Cole when he wouldn't go away, he fought Archer in a deathmatch too. Hangman is doing everything he can to keep the title, the title is his vice, where the beer used to be. He loses the belt, it's back to square one in his mind. Where he's "Never been as good as Omega" which Cole said to him, right before Hangman snapped and planted him through the tables.

It's not that Hangman's not expecting Punk to be a challenger, it's that Hangman's not letting Punk walk in and be all goody goody sportsmanlike at this point, when Hangman's run himself ragged trying to keep it, and still gets scrutinized at every turn. He's upset he's being viewed as an underdog, upset that people are already counting him out, and this invests me greatly into the storyline, but I've also been watching Hangman's struggles from the beginning, and it feels like after his triumph, he's realizing that all good things can't last forever, and he has no backup plan in his mind if he can't beat Punk.

Most of that is you just creating/expounding the narrative from what they have given us, which is very little to sink our teeth into in this feud.

Still 2 weeks left in the build so hopefully they do something to turn it up a bit.

Yeah sometimes AEW booking is a Rorschach test. You can make it work if you fill in some blanks, but you *have to* fill in the blanks to make it work.

Not always, but sometimes. Hangman’s arc from losing to Jericho in the first title match to finally going over Omega was pretty brilliant. For me, his booking as champion has been less so.

[Lizuka #BLM]

I do definitely agree that a lot of times the approach AEW takes to storytelling is either, "Make your own fun," or, "Be intimately aware of every single interaction these people've ever had." There've certainly been good stories here and there but I do feel like more often than not they just kind of fall into, "Tolerate something that's either incredibly bare bones or that drags on for six months and hope you get a good match at the end of it." Like, as someone who never really cared about the Bullet Club I didn't really see any reason I should've given the slightest semblance of a shit about the Hangman / Cole feud. ... Presumably the matches between them were good, I dunno, didn't care enough to actually watch them. Though more often than not I think Adam Cole is a very, "Just endlessly spam high spots and the crowd popping means it was a good match even though it made no f***ing sense," kind of wrestler.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

May 15, 2022 0:49:19 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

I do definitely agree that a lot of times the approach AEW takes to storytelling is either, "Make your own fun," or, "Be intimately aware of every single interaction these people've ever had." There've certainly been good stories here and there but I do feel like more often than not they just kind of fall into, "Tolerate something that's either incredibly bare bones or that drags on for six months and hope you get a good match at the end of it." Like, as someone who never really cared about the Bullet Club I didn't really see any reason I should've given the slightest semblance of a shit about the Hangman / Cole feud.

Don't agree with that at all. I've felt like AEW's stuff has been mostly well done and has gotten to point A to point B quite swimmingly

Not every storyline does this mind you, some do drag for various reasons that aren't always on booking but outlying factors and even injuries, but I feel like they've done a good job making me care personally

I know you've been very very down on AEW lately, and haven't really been watching it at all it seems, so it's a shame that it's just not clicking for you though. But I don't think that the "They are very bare bones" is entirely correct, at least to me. They've done such a great job giving little character beats here and there, which for me is very rewarding because there are characters I never cared about that I do very much care about now because of that. And I know I'm not alone.

[Deleted]

May 14, 2022 23:14:03 GMT -5 nihilismizhawt said:

I think the booking is as good as its ever been. People complained about Sammy versus Matt Hardy going too long, too many dark cults, Cody Rhodes matches being overbooked, I even remember people saying Kenny Omega was being poorly booked.

I could go on. If theres anything thats consistent, its ignoring all the good stuff to complain about the one or two bad things. People are obsessed with critiques, and forget all the things that they were critical about a month ago.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. Though I will say that I think the Sammy/Scorpio feud has been a convoluted mess that I'm hoping AEW wraps up quickly. Beyond that I think it's just people being nitpicky.

[DeeBee]

While I definitely still enjoy the product, the quality has definitely declined recently. I'm not really sure I can pinpoint one specific thing, it has just felt like a lot of tiny things have built up/annoyed me. I think the House of Black stuff is really bad, the TNT title situation is not the best, the AEW tag team titles need to leave Jurassic 90210 ASAP, and (in my opinion) the title needs to absolutely come off of Page at Double or Nothing. Also, while I really like the Blackpool Combat Club, I hate that Danielson has sorta taken a backseat and is a mute now. I felt like he was doing amazing work when he came in and could've made an outstanding heel champion.

Again, while there are things on the show I hate/don't care for, this is still the only modern wrestling product I currently watch. I don't expect them to be perfect all the time. As long as the good outweighs the bad, I'll keep watching.

["Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik]

Some things aren't hitting but I personally feel like the MJF/Wardlow story in its entirety (which is about 2.5 years long) is one of the best I've seen in my lifetime and their ability to stretch it out from the turn to the match from PPV to PPV has been remarkable.

And I'm personally very into Page and Punk the same way folks were interested in Rock and Austin before WrestleMania 17. It's two super over faces who almost never lose coming together to face off to see who is truly the best. To me, that's a compelling story. Pacquiao/Mayweather was compelling for the same reason. Two dudes fighting to see who's truly the best. And it has brought out a different side to each guy. It's a match where you have no idea what will happen and that stands out in AEW. It's what the world title has needed for a while.

[Bo Rida]

Yeah it's strange, in isolation there's a lot that's great, be that matches, angles or entire shows. Taken as a whole though it's weirdly unsatisfying.

It's long felt like pieces are being slowly moved into place but never quite get there. The super elite in particular, so much time spent on them with little progression.

I think mostly though it's all the title runs being weak. Hangman is lacking an arc, Jurassic Express and Jade barely face real challenges and Rosa doesn't feel like she's atop the division. I'm fans of all of them, it's purely the booking.

More than anything the tnt title picture drags down everyone involved and any show it's featured on. This week in particular they threw out anything potentially interesting and are back to the same old shit.

[Lizuka #BLM]

For me I think the Hangman title run's suffering from a mix of 1), nothing he's done since being nearly as good as the Bryan feud, and 2), I'm really just sick to death of long title reigns in wrestling in general and in AEW in particular. Not every single top guy has to hold the thing for six months, you're just rendering the start of the reign useless filler when all of them are long and it makes it feel like nothing ever happens.

I'm not saying we need some WCW 1999 14 champions in a year shit but it wouldn't kill them to have someone drop the belt in their first defense or only hold it for three months or something for once. Part of why I'm hoping Punk wins, I'm guessing he won't have it very long if he does.

[jimmycon]

I think sometimes they try not to spoon feed us and insult our intelligence but leave a little too much unsaid. I think that’s what’s happening with hangman, I too think the story is one of him becoming gradually more aggressive than we’re used to seeing him, not because he has beef with Punk but just because he feels threatened. But if a large proportion of the audience aren’t getting it (and this isn’t the only place I’ve heard it) then they do need to do something to make it less subtle probably. The good news is they still have 2 weeks to do so.

Wardlow/MJF is great. Christian/JB should be great when that happens. Jade is always an absolute star, there’s a lot of good shit.

But I have no idea what they are trying to achieve with Scorpio. I thought they’d pivoted quite well and we were going to see a workhorse Scorpio open challenge TNT reign, which I was up for. But now he’s a heel again and he STILL seems to be feuding with Sammy. That’s just weird.

[Teemu]

Hangman's title reign has suffered simply because the story was him winning the belt. After that, there was nowhere to go. Hangman finished his hero's journey as he pinned Omega. It's done, the story is told. It's like the Matrix sequels: at the end of the first movie, Neo had already finished his hero's journey, so the arc was done, which is why the next two movies kinda scrambled trying to come up with a plot. In wrestling, you need to keep going all the time, you can't just roll the credits, which is one of those disadvantages that wrestling has.

But not every character is meant to be a long-term champion. Dusty was never champion for long, he only won the NWA title three times, and his longest reign was just shy of three months or so. That was because the character the American Dream Dusty Rhodes would not have worked as champion. That's not what the character was about. Dusty's character was about chasing it - and once he stopped chasing, the story was done, so he had to lose it right back, otherwise, there wasn't gonna be a story to tell. There's no story to tell with Dusty as champion. Not for a long period anyway.

Hangman's a fine talent, and I don't even think it's AEW being bad that the run has sucked; it's just that some characters don't work as champion, and I see Hangman being an example since his hero's journey has already been completed.

It's the same in all fiction, and wrestling is in no way special or different from other forms of fiction. Just worse, often.

[stoptheclocks]

May 15, 2022 2:51:15 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

For me I think the Hangman title run's suffering from a mix of 1), nothing he's done since being nearly as good as the Bryan feud, and 2), I'm really just sick to death of long title reigns in wrestling in general and in AEW in particular. Not every single top guy has to hold the thing for six months, you're just rendering the start of the reign useless filler when all of them are long and it makes it feel like nothing ever happens.

I'm not saying we need some WCW 1999 14 champions in a year shit but it wouldn't kill them to have someone drop the belt in their first defense or only hold it for three months or something for once. Part of why I'm hoping Punk wins, I'm guessing he won't have it very long if he does.

I'd probably rather see AEW and WWE do 14 title changes a year at this point. I feel like it's an area in wrestling where creativity is being tied down by what is seen as 'good booking'.

Storylines that take a long time are inherently deep and meaningful, long reigns add prestige to a belt, a champion losing on his first defence is a jobber, short title reigns are hotshotting, more than six champions in a year and you are WCW, prepare to go out of business.

I dunno, it's wrestling, you can do anything well and anything badly. Try something new.

[Teemu]

May 15, 2022 4:07:28 GMT -5 stoptheclocks said:

May 15, 2022 2:51:15 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

For me I think the Hangman title run's suffering from a mix of 1), nothing he's done since being nearly as good as the Bryan feud, and 2), I'm really just sick to death of long title reigns in wrestling in general and in AEW in particular. Not every single top guy has to hold the thing for six months, you're just rendering the start of the reign useless filler when all of them are long and it makes it feel like nothing ever happens.

I'm not saying we need some WCW 1999 14 champions in a year shit but it wouldn't kill them to have someone drop the belt in their first defense or only hold it for three months or something for once. Part of why I'm hoping Punk wins, I'm guessing he won't have it very long if he does.

I'd probably rather see AEW and WWE do 14 title changes a year at this point. I feel like it's an area in wrestling where creativity is being tied down by what is seen as 'good booking'.

Storylines that take a long time are inherently deep and meaningful, long reigns add prestige to a belt, a champion losing on his first defence is a jobber, short title reigns are hotshotting, more than six champions in a year and you are WCW, prepare to go out of business.

I dunno, it's wrestling, you can do anything well and anything badly. Try something new.

I've been meaning to make a thread about this somewhere for the longest time, but I think you hit the nail in the head right there about a larger problem in pro wrestling. And why it's so bad, and why the ratings are so bad across the board with no signs of improvement.

As fans, we just know too much now. And there's no going back.

There's a very specific way of booking wrestling "optimally". For every feud and angle, there's a "right" way to do it, and we're aware those right ways as fans. An angle starts, and we can call the entire storyline because that's just how you're supposed to do that storyline. If you want everyone involved to get over and all that.

Okay, so let's say you want to be unpredictable.

That's all well and good, but since the predictable way to book is the logical way to book, now you're being illogical. And illogical booking is likely to result in no on getting over.

So, you're just kinda f***ed either way. Take, for example, the Wardlow turn. Everyone's called it months ago. We've all been able to call the storyline, beat for beat, because AEW seems to favour the "logical booking" trope. And this isn't really AEW's fault, but why should I watch the television show if I know everything that's gonna happen? I've been watching the Walking Dead lately, but I'm about to be done with it since it's gotten to the point where I can call everything that is going to take place. I predict they find a place to set camp, that camp gets destroyed, they're on the road for a bit, find a new camp, that camp gets destroyed.

So, wrestling is kinda in a pick your poison type situation: you either book logically, which is predictable and boring, or you spice things up, but your booking is now illogical, and will probably result in no one getting over.

It's impossible to produce engaging pro wrestling TV in 2022.

[Bo Rida]

I've said before but I completely disagree with Hangman's story ending at the title win.

Struggling with the pressure of being champion, Punk knowing that pressure and trying to help but Page questioning why, turning towards drink and Punk's reaction. So many options.

Even before that reuniting with the Bucks to take on UE would have been a great moment.

More of a story with the Dark Order.

He has had more creative options than most but they've basically ignored all of them.
As for predictibility aew had a knack of making the way somebody won as interesting as the result which counteracted predictability but that's lessened recently.

[AwamoriRock]

I think Hangman suffers from the thing that a story of him cracking under the pressure of being champ is a good one to tell, but it’s something that requires time and we just got done with a long story involving him.