Is no one going to say anything about Hornswoggle?

[Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan]

lildude8218 said:

There's an angry mouse who has something to say:

That's a very wise mouse.

[willywonka666]

cdr said:

Ok, for those who accept the Undertaker's magical powers but don't like Hornswoggle's comedy bits....please explain why. Please explain why a guy shooting lightning from his hands is somehow believeable (I know it's not, but in terms of kayfabe it is), but Hornswoggle painting an escape on a wall and running away is not.

Cause it's literally cartoonish. If the Undertaker was regular old Mark Calloway, but he stood in front of a mirror before his match and yelled "Undertaker" and magically turned into him, I would think it was ridiculous

[Threadkiller [Classic]]

cdr said:

Ok, for those who accept the Undertaker's magical powers but don't like Hornswoggle's comedy bits....please explain why. Please explain why a guy shooting lightning from his hands is somehow believeable (I know it's not, but in terms of kayfabe it is), but Hornswoggle painting an escape on a wall and running away is not.

mysterydriver said:

Just a few things I wanted to point out about WWE and the "reality" it presents...

Undertaker: Undead Wrestler who has been "killed" numerous times (usually in a burning casket) but returns everytime. He can turn lights on with his hands, can set off lightning bolts, possess people, and numerous other "mystical" things.

Kane: The Burned (But not really burned) Brother of the Undertaker who also shares Taker's power. I guess it is hereditary...oh, he has the power of "Fire" because of his past.

Boogeyman: Lives in a bottomless pit. Can transport to anywhere he chooses, bringing red light and smog with him, and can spawn off smaller versions of himself at anytime.

Hornswoggle: A magical leprechaun with powers to materialize anywhere and pull off "Looney Tune" style antics. He also lives under the ring.

Umaga: Untamed Samoan Savage who apparently travels by himself and can communicate with others if in need of tag partners. He is wild...but civilized. Or something like that.

Snitsky: A big man who apparently "snapped" and stopped grooming himself in order to become an unstoppable monster.

Deuce and Domino: 50s style Greasers who apparently haven't figured out what time frame that they are in.

Festus: Unstoppable redneck, big man set off by a bell including a visable transformation.

Lets face it, WWE doesn't always focus on reality and is just putting on a show. Raw is usually the bearer of comedy skits like this and the show that most often has less realistic comedy. Smackdown tries to put "realistic" spins on its stuff (Boogeyman was a failed actor, Festus has a history not yet develed into).

I've never understood getting mad at a product. I got mad when Triple H beat the Tag Champions, had to be taken down after the bell by both and Carlito before being saved by Londrick and mauling Carlito (again), then choosing to attack Londrick for no apparent reason. Because of this, I just switched the channel whenever HHH was on for a few weeks until I got over it.

Pick and choose. Pick and choose. It is the same advice other people give. If you see Hornswoggle, change the channel if you don't like him. It worked for me and it can work for you! Just call my toll free...oops...sorry. I went into a spiel...

I put the two quotes together to answer them together. And to those who think that I was implying being offended by the skit when I started this thread, that's not the case. In the grand scheme of things, it's not a big deal. I was more annoyed than anything else, since it didn't really help anyone and it didn't get the kind of mammoth reaction that would justify having done it in the first place.

Anyway, the reason why I'm okay with The Undertaker and his powers but not okay with Hornswoggle's stuff is for the simple reason that, like many of the examples listed above of wacky, supernatural characters, it's easy for someone who wants a little realism in their wrestling (like me) to explain those character traits away.

Ever since I was a little kid, I never took the Undertaker at face value. I never actually believed all the stuff about being undead and having supernatural powers. I figured that The Undertaker was a man with a tortured past who decided to create an enigmatic mystique about himself. I've always seen The Undertaker as a sort of illusionist, similar to Criss Angel (sorry for the comparison). He doesn't actually have powers, he's just a master illusionist who's created a character/aura about himself so that he can play mindgames with his opponents. On that level, it's been successful because he's built this aura to the point where, in kayfabe, most of his opponents are scared of him. If we're looking at this in kayfabe, all Mark Calloway, the man, would need to pull off these illusions is to have a few of the production guys in his pocket. Or people who help him pull off this mystique. And voila, lightning bolts shoot from your hands. Or if you're Kane, voila, fire shoots from all four corners on your signal. I saw Kane in much the same way. He's the only illusionist on par with his brother. Like that, something ridiculous and supernatural is explained away, while still leaving room for their kayfabed tragic past to be real.

You could do the same thing with all these other weirdo characters:

Boogeyman: He's just a weirdo in a costume. Hell, when he first came in, that's how everyone treated him, like some guy who was way too into his character. His introduction to Smackdown was that Palmer Cannon brought in a guy who was going to be on a UPN series about The Boogeyman, but production was shut down and they were locked into a contract with a nutjob. That was explained on his first night on Smackdown.

Umaga: We don't know that someone else hasn't taken Armando Estrada's place behind the scenes. Just because whoever it is doesn't come to the ring with him doesn't mean that he doesn't have a handler or a person who takes care of his business for him anymore.

Snitsky: Much like The Boogeyman, Snitsky is just a psycho who believes this is the best way to go about doing things.

Deuce and Domino: There are people like Deuce and Domino in the world. They know it's 2007, but they'd rather act like it's the 1950's. Hell, sometimes I wish it were the 1950's. But that's just because I enjoyed "Grease" way too much growing up.

Festus: That could have just been his training. Imagine Jesse finding this big man with the potential to kick ass, but nothing works. So he begins training him to respond to the sound of the ring bell. For all we know, it could have something to do with Festus' past that he responds violently to the sound of a bell. Perhaps that's how Jesse found Festus. He heard about a bigass man who goes ape**** every time he hears a bell, and so Jesse found him and recruited him to be his partner. We haven't been given Festus' story yet.

There are people out there who actually do this, explain away the absurdities of certain characters. And I enjoy the product more because I do. Hornswoggle, when he was a heel with Finlay, was another character that could easily be explained away. Referees ban Hornswoggle from the ring so Finlay figures the only way to have Hornswoggle there is to hide him in a box or under a sheet under the ring before the event even starts (we know there's a ton of crap under the ring anyway). The green lights could just be a part of the character, or maybe Hornswoggle needs a "night light" in the darkness under the ring, so he has green lights with him. Yes, it's absurd but it can make sense.

This past Raw is where it stopped making sense because you can't explain away someone spray painting a perfectly symmetrical portal on the wall and then jumping through it. That was my problem with it.

But like I said, I shouldn't have really even started the thread given that it's not a big deal to me now. More than anything it was a WTF moment that had me confused for a while because of how ridiculous it was. I just didn't get how it could be construed as benefiting the product when it didn't really get that big of a reaction and it didn't help anyone out really. But it's no big deal now. I just felt like explaining myself, is all.

[BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps]

beast147 said:

cdr said:

Ok, for those who accept the Undertaker's magical powers but don't like Hornswoggle's comedy bits....please explain why. Please explain why a guy shooting lightning from his hands is somehow believeable (I know it's not, but in terms of kayfabe it is), but Hornswoggle painting an escape on a wall and running away is not.

mysterydriver said:

Just a few things I wanted to point out about WWE and the "reality" it presents...

Undertaker: Undead Wrestler who has been "killed" numerous times (usually in a burning casket) but returns everytime. He can turn lights on with his hands, can set off lightning bolts, possess people, and numerous other "mystical" things.

Kane: The Burned (But not really burned) Brother of the Undertaker who also shares Taker's power. I guess it is hereditary...oh, he has the power of "Fire" because of his past.

Boogeyman: Lives in a bottomless pit. Can transport to anywhere he chooses, bringing red light and smog with him, and can spawn off smaller versions of himself at anytime.

Hornswoggle: A magical leprechaun with powers to materialize anywhere and pull off "Looney Tune" style antics. He also lives under the ring.

Umaga: Untamed Samoan Savage who apparently travels by himself and can communicate with others if in need of tag partners. He is wild...but civilized. Or something like that.

Snitsky: A big man who apparently "snapped" and stopped grooming himself in order to become an unstoppable monster.

Deuce and Domino: 50s style Greasers who apparently haven't figured out what time frame that they are in.

Festus: Unstoppable redneck, big man set off by a bell including a visable transformation.

Lets face it, WWE doesn't always focus on reality and is just putting on a show. Raw is usually the bearer of comedy skits like this and the show that most often has less realistic comedy. Smackdown tries to put "realistic" spins on its stuff (Boogeyman was a failed actor, Festus has a history not yet develed into).

I've never understood getting mad at a product. I got mad when Triple H beat the Tag Champions, had to be taken down after the bell by both and Carlito before being saved by Londrick and mauling Carlito (again), then choosing to attack Londrick for no apparent reason. Because of this, I just switched the channel whenever HHH was on for a few weeks until I got over it.

Pick and choose. Pick and choose. It is the same advice other people give. If you see Hornswoggle, change the channel if you don't like him. It worked for me and it can work for you! Just call my toll free...oops...sorry. I went into a spiel...

I put the two quotes together to answer them together. And to those who think that I was implying being offended by the skit when I started this thread, that's not the case. In the grand scheme of things, it's not a big deal. I was more annoyed than anything else, since it didn't really help anyone and it didn't get the kind of mammoth reaction that would justify having done it in the first place.

Anyway, the reason why I'm okay with The Undertaker and his powers but not okay with Hornswoggle's stuff is for the simple reason that, like many of the examples listed above of wacky, supernatural characters, it's easy for someone who wants a little realism in their wrestling (like me) to explain those character traits away.

Ever since I was a little kid, I never took the Undertaker at face value. I never actually believed all the stuff about being undead and having supernatural powers. I figured that The Undertaker was a man with a tortured past who decided to create an enigmatic mystique about himself. I've always seen The Undertaker as a sort of illusionist, similar to Criss Angel (sorry for the comparison). He doesn't actually have powers, he's just a master illusionist who's created a character/aura about himself so that he can play mindgames with his opponents. On that level, it's been successful because he's built this aura to the point where, in kayfabe, most of his opponents are scared of him. If we're looking at this in kayfabe, all Mark Calloway, the man, would need to pull off these illusions is to have a few of the production guys in his pocket. Or people who help him pull off this mystique. And voila, lightning bolts shoot from your hands. Or if you're Kane, voila, fire shoots from all four corners on your signal. I saw Kane in much the same way. He's the only illusionist on par with his brother. Like that, something ridiculous and supernatural is explained away, while still leaving room for their kayfabed tragic past to be real.

You could do the same thing with all these other weirdo characters:

Boogeyman: He's just a weirdo in a costume. Hell, when he first came in, that's how everyone treated him, like some guy who was way too into his character. His introduction to Smackdown was that Palmer Cannon brought in a guy who was going to be on a UPN series about The Boogeyman, but production was shut down and they were locked into a contract with a nutjob. That was explained on his first night on Smackdown.

Umaga: We don't know that someone else hasn't taken Armando Estrada's place behind the scenes. Just because whoever it is doesn't come to the ring with him doesn't mean that he doesn't have a handler or a person who takes care of his business for him anymore.

Snitsky: Much like The Boogeyman, Snitsky is just a psycho who believes this is the best way to go about doing things.

Deuce and Domino: There are people like Deuce and Domino in the world. They know it's 2007, but they'd rather act like it's the 1950's. Hell, sometimes I wish it were the 1950's. But that's just because I enjoyed "Grease" way too much growing up.

Festus: That could have just been his training. Imagine Jesse finding this big man with the potential to kick ass, but nothing works. So he begins training him to respond to the sound of the ring bell. For all we know, it could have something to do with Festus' past that he responds violently to the sound of a bell. Perhaps that's how Jesse found Festus. He heard about a bigass man who goes ape**** every time he hears a bell, and so Jesse found him and recruited him to be his partner. We haven't been given Festus' story yet.

There are people out there who actually do this, explain away the absurdities of certain characters. And I enjoy the product more because I do. Hornswoggle, when he was a heel with Finlay, was another character that could easily be explained away. Referees ban Hornswoggle from the ring so Finlay figures the only way to have Hornswoggle there is to hide him in a box or under a sheet under the ring before the event even starts (we know there's a ton of crap under the ring anyway). The green lights could just be a part of the character, or maybe Hornswoggle needs a "night light" in the darkness under the ring, so he has green lights with him. Yes, it's absurd but it can make sense.

This past Raw is where it stopped making sense because you can't explain away someone spray painting a perfectly symmetrical portal on the wall and then jumping through it. That was my problem with it.

But like I said, I shouldn't have really even started the thread given that it's not a big deal to me now. More than anything it was a WTF moment that had me confused for a while because of how ridiculous it was. I just didn't get how it could be construed as benefiting the product when it didn't really get that big of a reaction and it didn't help anyone out really. But it's no big deal now. I just felt like explaining myself, is all.

I was one of the people who thought you were overreacting at first, but now I understand.

[valiens]

Wait, isn't this the same wrestlecrap forum that was suggesting weeks ago that WWE do MORE cartoonish schtick with Hornsoggle after the TNT routine in the ring with Coach?

[derrtaysouth95]

I thought it was funny and didn't hurt anyone storylines going on.

Vince is still evil.
Carlito is still a jackass on his way out.
Simmons said........................................................"DAMN!"
Hornswaggle can now disappear through walls

all in all it was a good segment imo

[PTBartman]

willywonka666 said:

cdr said:

Ok, for those who accept the Undertaker's magical powers but don't like Hornswoggle's comedy bits....please explain why. Please explain why a guy shooting lightning from his hands is somehow believeable (I know it's not, but in terms of kayfabe it is), but Hornswoggle painting an escape on a wall and running away is not.

Cause it's literally cartoonish. If the Undertaker was regular old Mark Calloway, but he stood in front of a mirror before his match and yelled "Undertaker" and magically turned into him, I would think it was ridiculous

You mean like Ace Reporter Gregory helms? What's up with that?

[Loser troll. Please ban me]

i noticed with all the other comedy example people gave evryone was a wrestler who will his logic may be flawed, usally all of the intended gimmick-e-ness happens usally durring and after a match, while this segment just seemed to be a waste of time, i mean i know how much the IWC dislikes the diva's wrestling but id rather see that then another cartoon inspired angle, whats next a giant novelty anvil falls on carlito with the words 1000 tons written on the side?

[lildude8218]

I just realized something. You all love continuity. Well now you all know how Hornswoggle always disappeared and reappeared under the ring when referees or other wrestlers were looking for him.

[doytch]

the idea was to have carlito looking stupid. there is no chances of carlito fitting through hole that was too small. so carlito hits wall. ron simmons damn!

[Deleted]

Hornswoggle may or may not be on top of Carlito's house, ready to drop a large anvil on his head.

Source: Rajah.com

[Threadkiller [Classic]]

awataurne said:

Hornswoggle may or may not be on top of Carlito's house, ready to drop a large anvil on his head.

Source: Rajah.com

LIES! He's up there with a giant trampoline that he'll drop on Carlito's head, and it will bounce up and down on him, hurting him repeatedly since he no longer has his afro-poof to shield his head. So it is written. So it shall come to pass.

[G2]

I cringed the whole way through.

I am so glad I watched raw when no one else was in the house, that was the stupidest thing I've seen in a looong time.

[Kyle]

Wrestling has always been over the top. While I personally think this stuff with Hornswoggle McMahon is quite dumb, I don't have any real "problem" with it on my TV set. I'd rather they do something like this than force us to sit through another Diva Search contest... or give us something downright offensive (Undertaker pinning Steve Austin to the "cross").

It's actually a nice little nod by the WWE to the fact that a lot of their fans happen to be children. This isn't the Attitude Era anymore, I think if you pay attention to the crowds (or attend live shows) you'll see plenty of parents taking their children to the show. Now I'm NOT saying they need to turn all Mr. Rogers on us, but lets face it wrestling appeals to children. They might as well have a few (small) segments like Hornswoggle McMahon designed for them.

In the end this stuff isn't offensive. It doesn't eat up a lot of TV time. And while it doesn't really help anyone on the roster, it's not really hurting anyone either (except for Carlito, but I think we can all agree that doesn't count).

Long story short, I wish if they were going to do more segments geared towards kids they'd at least spend the time to shoot them properly (the fact that you could see NO paint coming out of the can was up, stupid). But I understand why they are there, and don't have a problem with it.

On a slightly related topic remember on the Halloween ECW special we seen CM Punk and a bunch of children trick-or treating BACKSTAGE. Like we're honestly supposed to believe that superstars LIVE in the arena? Now that always struck me as being flat out stupid.

~Kyle

[willywonka666]

ptbartman said:

willywonka666 said:

Cause it's literally cartoonish. If the Undertaker was regular old Mark Calloway, but he stood in front of a mirror before his match and yelled "Undertaker" and magically turned into him, I would think it was ridiculous

You mean like Ace Reporter Gregory helms? What's up with that?

Very good point. Now I truly enjoyed the hurricane segments. I dunno, if Hornswoggle had a personality or something he might be entertaining to me.

This is truly weird. this guy is over and he doesn't even speak that I've heard of. yet Mike Awesome didn't get over in the E because he supposedly wasn't a good talker.

[Andrew is Good]

Personally, I don't like it, because I'm not into stuff being so over the top and so unrealistic where it could never happen in real life. I like wrestling to be a shoot when I'm watching it, I don't want the idea that it's scripted to be thrown at me when I'm watching it. Whether it be in the matches itself (with poor selling) or in segments like that.

I felt Hornswoggle was ok as a mini version of Finlay, and that's what I saw him as. And people will talk about Kane shooting fireballs, and Taker raising the lights, but it could be said that they wanted to do that to add to the intimidation of their opponent.

Hell, even Boogeyman actually had a backstory in OVW, but they just didn't talk about it in WWE.

[Threadkiller [Classic]]

killbill20 said:

On a slightly related topic remember on the Halloween ECW special we seen CM Punk and a bunch of children trick-or treating BACKSTAGE. Like we're honestly supposed to believe that superstars LIVE in the arena? Now that always struck me as being flat out stupid.

~Kyle

I just figured they were trick-or-treating to Superstars' locker rooms, not necessarily that they live there. I know in reality that many of the wrestlers share a common locker room, but it makes sense that CM Punk, being the champion, would have his own locker room. Either way, I like segments like that trick-or-treat segment if we're going to have segments geared towards children, because that was actually a pretty cute segment, with the Boogeyman coming and freaking the kids out, and CM Punk being so damn likable and imparting a safety message to the children. It could only help with WWE's image to seem more accessible to young viewers, but not in a way that insults the intelligence of older viewers.

[Kyle]

beast147 said:

killbill20 said:

On a slightly related topic remember on the Halloween ECW special we seen CM Punk and a bunch of children trick-or treating BACKSTAGE. Like we're honestly supposed to believe that superstars LIVE in the arena? Now that always struck me as being flat out stupid.

~Kyle

I just figured they were trick-or-treating to Superstars' locker rooms, not necessarily that they live there. I know in reality that many of the wrestlers share a common locker room, but it makes sense that CM Punk, being the champion, would have his own locker room. Either way, I like segments like that trick-or-treat segment if we're going to have segments geared towards children, because that was actually a pretty cute segment, with the Boogeyman coming and freaking the kids out, and CM Punk being so damn likable and imparting a safety message to the children. It could only help with WWE's image to seem more accessible to young viewers, but not in a way that insults the intelligence of older viewers.

Good point.

[PTBartman]

willywonka666 said:

ptbartman said:

You mean like Ace Reporter Gregory helms? What's up with that?

Very good point. Now I truly enjoyed the hurricane segments. I dunno, if Hornswoggle had a personality or something he might be entertaining to me.

This is truly weird. this guy is over and he doesn't even speak that I've heard of. yet Mike Awesome didn't get over in the E because he supposedly wasn't a good talker.

He Mimes. He does it in very specific broad terms, like a circus clown. He Plays to the top row. He's actually pretty good at it. Which explains his loud POPS.

[Mister Pigwell]

lildude8218 said:

There's an angry mouse who has something to say:

That may just be the most awesome rodent ever.