|
Post by Hensley on Nov 29, 2007 0:47:00 GMT -5
I laughed just because I haven't seen a Looney Tunes cartoon in a couple of years. Didn't hurt anyone, I mean Carlito's already leaving right? So, no harm done.
|
|
|
Post by Nice Guy Cody on Nov 29, 2007 0:55:46 GMT -5
There's an angry mouse who has something to say: Hey, Roseanne was just a TV show too, but that last episode was still crap. Just because it's a TV show doesn't mean it can't be really stupid and out of place. That logic would also defend Warrior's Magic Mirror. Just sayin. I mean, if we start rationalizing every dumb thing they do by saying "It's just TV, therefore anything that happens is completely justified", there's no real point to this site anymore if you think about it.
|
|
|
Post by MichaelMartini on Nov 29, 2007 1:10:02 GMT -5
Ok, for those who accept the Undertaker's magical powers but don't like Hornswoggle's comedy bits....please explain why. Please explain why a guy shooting lightning from his hands is somehow believeable (I know it's not, but in terms of kayfabe it is), but Hornswoggle painting an escape on a wall and running away is not. Just a few things I wanted to point out about WWE and the "reality" it presents... Undertaker: Undead Wrestler who has been "killed" numerous times (usually in a burning casket) but returns everytime. He can turn lights on with his hands, can set off lightning bolts, possess people, and numerous other "mystical" things. Kane: The Burned (But not really burned) Brother of the Undertaker who also shares Taker's power. I guess it is hereditary...oh, he has the power of "Fire" because of his past. Boogeyman: Lives in a bottomless pit. Can transport to anywhere he chooses, bringing red light and smog with him, and can spawn off smaller versions of himself at anytime. Hornswoggle: A magical leprechaun with powers to materialize anywhere and pull off "Looney Tune" style antics. He also lives under the ring. Umaga: Untamed Samoan Savage who apparently travels by himself and can communicate with others if in need of tag partners. He is wild...but civilized. Or something like that. Snitsky: A big man who apparently "snapped" and stopped grooming himself in order to become an unstoppable monster. Deuce and Domino: 50s style Greasers who apparently haven't figured out what time frame that they are in. Festus: Unstoppable redneck, big man set off by a bell including a visable transformation. Lets face it, WWE doesn't always focus on reality and is just putting on a show. Raw is usually the bearer of comedy skits like this and the show that most often has less realistic comedy. Smackdown tries to put "realistic" spins on its stuff (Boogeyman was a failed actor, Festus has a history not yet develed into). I've never understood getting mad at a product. I got mad when Triple H beat the Tag Champions, had to be taken down after the bell by both and Carlito before being saved by Londrick and mauling Carlito (again), then choosing to attack Londrick for no apparent reason. Because of this, I just switched the channel whenever HHH was on for a few weeks until I got over it. Pick and choose. Pick and choose. It is the same advice other people give. If you see Hornswoggle, change the channel if you don't like him. It worked for me and it can work for you! Just call my toll free...oops...sorry. I went into a spiel... I put the two quotes together to answer them together. And to those who think that I was implying being offended by the skit when I started this thread, that's not the case. In the grand scheme of things, it's not a big deal. I was more annoyed than anything else, since it didn't really help anyone and it didn't get the kind of mammoth reaction that would justify having done it in the first place. Anyway, the reason why I'm okay with The Undertaker and his powers but not okay with Hornswoggle's stuff is for the simple reason that, like many of the examples listed above of wacky, supernatural characters, it's easy for someone who wants a little realism in their wrestling (like me) to explain those character traits away. Ever since I was a little kid, I never took the Undertaker at face value. I never actually believed all the stuff about being undead and having supernatural powers. I figured that The Undertaker was a man with a tortured past who decided to create an enigmatic mystique about himself. I've always seen The Undertaker as a sort of illusionist, similar to Criss Angel (sorry for the comparison). He doesn't actually have powers, he's just a master illusionist who's created a character/aura about himself so that he can play mindgames with his opponents. On that level, it's been successful because he's built this aura to the point where, in kayfabe, most of his opponents are scared of him. If we're looking at this in kayfabe, all Mark Calloway, the man, would need to pull off these illusions is to have a few of the production guys in his pocket. Or people who help him pull off this mystique. And voila, lightning bolts shoot from your hands. Or if you're Kane, voila, fire shoots from all four corners on your signal. I saw Kane in much the same way. He's the only illusionist on par with his brother. Like that, something ridiculous and supernatural is explained away, while still leaving room for their kayfabed tragic past to be real. You could do the same thing with all these other weirdo characters: Boogeyman: He's just a weirdo in a costume. Hell, when he first came in, that's how everyone treated him, like some guy who was way too into his character. His introduction to Smackdown was that Palmer Cannon brought in a guy who was going to be on a UPN series about The Boogeyman, but production was shut down and they were locked into a contract with a nutjob. That was explained on his first night on Smackdown. Umaga: We don't know that someone else hasn't taken Armando Estrada's place behind the scenes. Just because whoever it is doesn't come to the ring with him doesn't mean that he doesn't have a handler or a person who takes care of his business for him anymore. Snitsky: Much like The Boogeyman, Snitsky is just a psycho who believes this is the best way to go about doing things. Deuce and Domino: There are people like Deuce and Domino in the world. They know it's 2007, but they'd rather act like it's the 1950's. Hell, sometimes I wish it were the 1950's. But that's just because I enjoyed "Grease" way too much growing up. Festus: That could have just been his training. Imagine Jesse finding this big man with the potential to kick ass, but nothing works. So he begins training him to respond to the sound of the ring bell. For all we know, it could have something to do with Festus' past that he responds violently to the sound of a bell. Perhaps that's how Jesse found Festus. He heard about a bigass man who goes ape**** every time he hears a bell, and so Jesse found him and recruited him to be his partner. We haven't been given Festus' story yet. There are people out there who actually do this, explain away the absurdities of certain characters. And I enjoy the product more because I do. Hornswoggle, when he was a heel with Finlay, was another character that could easily be explained away. Referees ban Hornswoggle from the ring so Finlay figures the only way to have Hornswoggle there is to hide him in a box or under a sheet under the ring before the event even starts (we know there's a ton of crap under the ring anyway). The green lights could just be a part of the character, or maybe Hornswoggle needs a "night light" in the darkness under the ring, so he has green lights with him. Yes, it's absurd but it can make sense. This past Raw is where it stopped making sense because you can't explain away someone spray painting a perfectly symmetrical portal on the wall and then jumping through it. That was my problem with it. But like I said, I shouldn't have really even started the thread given that it's not a big deal to me now. More than anything it was a WTF moment that had me confused for a while because of how ridiculous it was. I just didn't get how it could be construed as benefiting the product when it didn't really get that big of a reaction and it didn't help anyone out really. But it's no big deal now. I just felt like explaining myself, is all. Excellent post. That's always how I've looked at Undertaker as well. The only time I was really turned off by his schtick was when he possessed Josh Mathews. It was stupid, and they never did it again. Hopefully they'll realize how stupid these cartoon bits are and drop them. It's not like I heard any laughs in the arena.
|
|
|
Post by Tyfo on Nov 29, 2007 1:13:28 GMT -5
No doubt in my mind that whatever is named the Gooker for this year, is going to involve Vinnie Mac I agree it will, which I think is a little unfortunate. I dont think enough people actually saw the "Electrified Cage Match" to truely grasp the crapiness it possessed. But Trump vs. Rosie is probably a worthy winner none the less. I just think that damn cage match was worse, but less widely seen.
|
|
|
Post by Nice Guy Cody on Nov 29, 2007 1:17:27 GMT -5
No doubt in my mind that whatever is named the Gooker for this year, is going to involve Vinnie Mac I agree it will, which I think is a little unfortunate. I dont think enough people actually saw the "Electrified Cage Match" to truely grasp the crapiness it possessed. But Trump vs. Rosie is probably a worthy winner none the less. I just think that damn cage match was worse, but less widely seen. Well, I for one saw that cage match, and while I agree the actual spot was really stupid, I don't think a decent match with a crap spot where a bunch of lights flickered on and off, and TNA expecting us to buy this as an actual electrocution compare to WWE trying to convince us Vince McMahon was really DEAD.
|
|
|
Post by lildude8218 on Nov 29, 2007 1:25:04 GMT -5
There's an angry mouse who has something to say: Hey, Roseanne was just a TV show too, but that last episode was still crap. Just because it's a TV show doesn't mean it can't be really stupid and out of place. That logic would also defend Warrior's Magic Mirror. Just sayin. I mean, if we start rationalizing every dumb thing they do by saying "It's just TV, therefore anything that happens is completely justified", there's no real point to this site anymore if you think about it. you're taking what the mouse said completely out of context now. it was meant to be vague for a reason. people are taking this as a personal attack on their lives or an insult to their intelligence. and once again, the point of this site isn't to bitch and moan about how "stupid" every little thing is that happens. it's about making fun of it and having a great time, not getting pissed off and swearing off the product forever.
|
|
Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,937
|
Post by Mozenrath on Nov 29, 2007 4:03:01 GMT -5
Besides, while it's cruel, fact is, you can swear off. Have fun. Don't expect the others who claim they will to follow through, since it's the same thing as a kid crying because he didn't get two bags of M&Ms and not just one.
WWE isn't here to please you, and they'll be just fine minus one dude.
|
|
|
Post by G✇JI☈A on Nov 29, 2007 6:54:40 GMT -5
I will just say: Gooker Of The Year.
And if not it has to ibe nducted into WC.
Kill The Midget!
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Nov 29, 2007 12:48:47 GMT -5
Every day here I'm reminded of how differently I view this stuff than a lot of people.
|
|
|
Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 29, 2007 13:03:16 GMT -5
Just because it's a TV show doesn't mean it can't be really stupid and out of place. That logic would also defend Warrior's Magic Mirror. Just sayin. I mean, if we start rationalizing every dumb thing they do by saying "It's just TV, therefore anything that happens is completely justified", there's no real point to this site anymore if you think about it. It's not a matter of rationalization. It's a matter of expecting consistent reason from wrestling itself, which is kinda dumb to begin with. If I wanted my product to make some sense, I would start by having DDTs be automatic match-enders and increasing grabbing the ropes to block irish whips. We've got a lot of logic gaps here.
|
|
Lancers
El Dandy
Oh you
Posts: 7,951
|
Post by Lancers on Nov 29, 2007 13:06:29 GMT -5
Every day here I'm reminded of how differently I view this stuff than a lot of people. Isn't it amazing? It gets to the point where I wondering if there's something wrong with me for not being so wound up or bothered by the product. Granted, I don't watch ECW or Smackdown and I usually watch more MNF than I do RAW so perhaps that would explain why I could care less about that the WWE does whereas others who do watch every minute of WWE programming would become more emotionally invested to the product than I ever will.
|
|
Eunös ✈
Dalek
Duck Feet Expert
Tolerated, just not practically liked.
Posts: 59,297
|
Post by Eunös ✈ on Nov 29, 2007 13:43:17 GMT -5
You know after re watching the Segment on YouTube, I have to say this is definatly one of those Times when Ron Simmons "Damn" Saves it.
|
|
Lancers
El Dandy
Oh you
Posts: 7,951
|
Post by Lancers on Nov 29, 2007 13:51:24 GMT -5
Well while I'm here. Might as well throw my two cents into the matter.
Was it stupid? Yes. Yes it was.
Did I laugh? Yes, I chuckled a bit knowing what was about to occur as soon as I saw the ice cream sandwich note on the door.
RAW has approximately 90 minutes of air to fill (excluding commercials). If they spent a grand total of 5 minutes on something they stole out of Wile E. Coyote's playbook, than that's approximately 7% of programming devoted to something that had zero to do with wrestling and everything to do with entertainment.
That 7% shouldn't deter people from swearing off from watching wrestling. If it does, I'm sorry, I think your overexaggerating and making a big stink out of nothing. And yes, I KNOW that there was probably other dumb stuff that happened during the telecast, but if you are a WWE fan, certainly by now you would know what to expect when you're watching their programming. This isn't new by any means.
I can't believe people are continually getting frustrated over something that's been this company's M.O. in what seems like as long as I've been watching the WWE (which has been about 20 years).
|
|
|
Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 29, 2007 13:59:21 GMT -5
Well while I'm here. Might as well throw my two cents into the matter. Was it stupid? Yes. Yes it was. Did I laugh? Yes, I chuckled a bit knowing what was about to occur as soon as I saw the ice cream sandwich note on the door. RAW has approximately 90 minutes of air to fill (excluding commercials). If they spent a grand total of 5 minutes on something they stole out of Wile E. Coyote's playbook, than that's approximately 7% of programming devoted to something that had zero to do with wrestling and everything to do with entertainment. That 7% shouldn't deter people from swearing off from watching wrestling. If it does, I'm sorry, I think your overexaggerating and making a big stink out of nothing. And yes, I KNOW that there was probably other dumb stuff that happened during the telecast, but if you are a WWE fan, certainly by now you would know what to expect when you're watching their programming. This isn't new by any means. I can't believe people are continually getting frustrated over something that's been this company's M.O. in what seems like as long as I've been watching the WWE (which has been about 20 years). Keep in mind that Lancers is referring to fans as a whole around the net, as no one has sworn off wrestling or WWE in this thread.
|
|
|
Post by lildude8218 on Nov 29, 2007 14:03:11 GMT -5
Well while I'm here. Might as well throw my two cents into the matter. Was it stupid? Yes. Yes it was. Did I laugh? Yes, I chuckled a bit knowing what was about to occur as soon as I saw the ice cream sandwich note on the door. RAW has approximately 90 minutes of air to fill (excluding commercials). If they spent a grand total of 5 minutes on something they stole out of Wile E. Coyote's playbook, than that's approximately 7% of programming devoted to something that had zero to do with wrestling and everything to do with entertainment. That 7% shouldn't deter people from swearing off from watching wrestling. If it does, I'm sorry, I think your overexaggerating and making a big stink out of nothing. And yes, I KNOW that there was probably other dumb stuff that happened during the telecast, but if you are a WWE fan, certainly by now you would know what to expect when you're watching their programming. This isn't new by any means. I can't believe people are continually getting frustrated over something that's been this company's M.O. in what seems like as long as I've been watching the WWE (which has been about 20 years). Keep in mind that Lancers is referring to fans as a whole around the net, as no one has sworn off wrestling or WWE in this thread. Not in this thread no....but during Raw....well that's another story.
|
|
Lancers
El Dandy
Oh you
Posts: 7,951
|
Post by Lancers on Nov 29, 2007 14:04:41 GMT -5
Correct. It's more of a generalization around here when something stupid occurs that isn't to someone's liking and it's perceived to be the straw that broke the camel's back, but really turns out to be nothing more than a bruise on the camel's back that heals after a month, if you know what I mean.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2007 14:25:02 GMT -5
I thought it was stupid
Nothing I'd going to reflect on for any great length of time as soon as it was over I forgot about
But during it I did think it was idiotic, but it was over quickly so meh
|
|
|
Post by samachine on Nov 29, 2007 14:25:30 GMT -5
I hate it, and I hate it as much as I hate Eugene and Eric Young
|
|
JD Turk
Team Rocket
The freshest man on Wrestlecrap!
Posts: 997
|
Post by JD Turk on Nov 29, 2007 14:30:58 GMT -5
Outside of Jericho, Santino, and RKO, Raw isn't worth watching at all...Impact is waaaaay better in my opinion...
|
|
|
Post by tap on Nov 29, 2007 14:31:01 GMT -5
A series of non-sequiturs:
First of all, I enjoyed the Hornswaggle skit.
HOWEVER.
The sum of comedy skits of 2007 vis-a-vis the list of released wrestlers who Creative had nothing for, or wrestlers that will be released soon enough, is disconcerting. When people's job security, income, and families are threatened, or the possibility of being threatened, it reduces the fun.
Second of all, people are saying no one storyline-wise was hurt by the angle. To paraphrase Raven's "if everyone goes over, no one goes over," if no one gets over, then no one will be over Yes, Hornswaggle is over, but does he really aid anyone's career in a substantive way? is he a financial draw? is this short-term or long-term sustainability? WWE needs more perspective, injuries, steroid scandals, and murder-suicides notwithstanding, for their shows and PPVs. I don't think Hornswaggle is it, but hey, doesn't mean I'm not allowed to laugh.
I forget whoever mentioned Mark Calloway saying "UNDERTAKER!" in front of a mirror, but, look at Survivor Series 2003 to Wrestlemania XX.
About Vince's "good guys and bad guys" speech from 1997. You still had trace elements of suspended belief. Undertaker, Lord of Darkness, creatures of the night. The whole Kane history. Dude Love/Cactus Jack/Mankind's schizophrenia. Goldust. The Rock referring to himself in the third person. Suspended disbelief is always a part of wrestling, that furthermore is relative the the success of the business at that time. In terms of overall narrative themes, there is no particular difference between Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold Steve Austin, and John Cena. The business is in a retracting phase in comparison to other boom periods (the business is cyclical, but relative to each boom/recession and not equivalent in terms of time), so seeing cartoonish elements is a part of this new "New Generation," for comparison's sake.
Is Hornswaggle Wrestlecrap? No. Wrestlecrappy? Somewhat. Been involved in Wrestlecrap? Depends if you think 2007's Gooker should be Vince as a whole (I think yes). But Hornswaggle, in the annals of wrestling history, for the purist and reflexive fans, will not even equal a footnote.
|
|