Hiroshi Hase
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The Good Ol' Days
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Aug 11, 2007 13:15:48 GMT -5
Lita had credibility as being able to hold her own, hence why she beat Spike clean in a match, and always managed to help even the tides when the Hardyz needed help. That's true, but she'd never be in there with the top guys like Austin, Trips or Rock. Tag team and matches against Cruiserweights are fine.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 11, 2007 13:16:29 GMT -5
Lita had credibility as being able to hold her own, hence why she beat Spike clean in a match, and always managed to help even the tides when the Hardyz needed help. Spike's a little dude and Lita was over as a wrestler at the time- not a diva, not a valet and not a manager. Plus she had top rope moves that always take people down like hurucanranas and missle dropkicks. She could hold her own because she was over as a wrestler.
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Post by samachine on Aug 11, 2007 13:17:25 GMT -5
Lita had credibility as being able to hold her own, hence why she beat Spike clean in a match, and always managed to help even the tides when the Hardyz needed help. That's true, but she'd never be in there with the top guys like Austin, Trips or Rock. Tag team and matches against Cruiserweights are fine. Of course not, that would be ridiculous booking. But didn't Chyna eliminate a high card guy from the Rumble? Might've been Vince.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 11, 2007 13:18:28 GMT -5
You sure that Flair being one of the best showman in wrestling has anything to do with it? Get out of here with that logic. I was talking real life. The Flair thing was in the original post, not mine. I don't know why he replied to me because I didn't bring up Flair I simply said the same thing happens in real life so it shouldn't be a shock that it happens in wrestling. Read it carefully so you can see who's saying what. Don't misquote me.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 11, 2007 13:19:10 GMT -5
That's true, but she'd never be in there with the top guys like Austin, Trips or Rock. Tag team and matches against Cruiserweights are fine. Of course not, that would be ridiculous booking. But didn't Chyna eliminate a high card guy from the Rumble? Might've been Vince. Chyna was buff and considered a man, not feminine because feminine always = weak. Totally different.
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Post by eJm on Aug 11, 2007 13:22:16 GMT -5
Personally, I don't mind it in Pro Wrestling. It's just a part of the show, no biggie. I do see Billy's (may I call you Billy? ) point about Women being on the same low playing field, but there are several factors leading to this. 1. If you look at someone, like a Candice, she doesn't exactly look like someone who could beat the crap out of, say, a Snitsky . I'm not saying this is the case at all, but it's just one of those 'Judge a book by it's cover' things. For all we know, she could be a Black Belt or something. 2. Go up to someone like HHH and say to him 'Tonight, you are going to job cleanly to Ashley Massaro' and wait for his reaction. It'll probably involve a stretcher and a one way trip to the Hospital. He knows what people think of women in wrestling and if he lost to Ashley, he would probably lose ALOT of credibility. Also cons 3. Wrestling has always had a sense of 'Anything could happen', but sometimes you got to convince an audience something could happen. If someone can convince you that this woman can beat a man then the job has been done. The only problem is, I could only name one person, in my opinion, who could be built up this way, and that's Beth Pheonix. Not saying anyone else can't, but she has the look to convince people she could. It could draw, but it would take a damn tonne of work to do it.
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 11, 2007 13:24:50 GMT -5
Lita had credibility as being able to hold her own, hence why she beat Spike clean in a match, and always managed to help even the tides when the Hardyz needed help. Spike's a little dude and Lita was over as a wrestler at the time- not a diva, not a valet and not a manager. Plus she had top rope moves that always take people down like hurucanranas and missle dropkicks. She could hold her own because she was over as a wrestler. It made me very happy to see a woman that over. Chyna and maybe Jacqueline are the only other women to do that. I think Lita should be in the Hall of Fame before Trish ever would be.
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Post by Dynamite Kid on Aug 11, 2007 13:25:37 GMT -5
The funny thing is, beating up chicks was even a slight taboo in ECW. At ONS2006 there were boos when Dreamer gave a DVD to Lita.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 11, 2007 13:27:54 GMT -5
Personally, I don't mind it in Pro Wrestling. It's just a part of the show, no biggie. I do see Billy's (may I call you Billy? ) point about Women being on the same low playing field, but there are several factors leading to this. 1. If you look at someone, like a Candice, she doesn't exactly look like someone who could beat the crap out of, say, a Snitsky . I'm not saying this is the case at all, but it's just one of those 'Judge a book by it's cover' things. For all we know, she could be a Black Belt or something. 2. Go up to someone like HHH and say to him 'Tonight, you are going to job cleanly to Ashley Massaro' and wait for his reaction. It'll probably involve a stretcher and a one way trip to the Hospital. He knows what people think of women in wrestling and if he lost to Ashley, he would probably lose ALOT of credibility. Also cons 3. Wrestling has always had a sense of 'Anything could happen', but sometimes you got to convince an audience something could happen. If someone can convince you that this woman can beat a man then the job has been done. The only problem is, I could only name one person, in my opinion, who could be built up this way, and that's Beth Pheonix. Not saying anyone else can't, but she has the look to convince people she could. It could draw, but it would take a damn tonne of work to do it. She used to do it. She used to Death Valley Drive two guys at once. Ahua! Looks are key and women in wrestling are expected to look like the divas on WWE TV, not exactly a threat even to other women but in the old days a Luna, a Chyna hell even Jackie could get in their with the mind. Even with a way taller guy all Jackie had to do was land one of those high tae kwon do kicks to the face. I think one of the main problems is this wimpy version of ALL women (even the wrestlers) has been promoted above all else more in more in the last decade. Wimpy girls like the divas who weren't previously wrestlers are what the mark crowd enjoys the most. They like women to be women and nothing outside of that box.
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Hiroshi Hase
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The Good Ol' Days
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Aug 11, 2007 13:27:55 GMT -5
Of course not, that would be ridiculous booking. But didn't Chyna eliminate a high card guy from the Rumble? Might've been Vince. Chyna was buff and considered a man, not feminine because feminine always = weak. Totally different. Well in wrestling it would be accurate. No one would pay money to see ditzy, beautiful, feminine, fragile Maria in against big,powerful, Lashley, and see Maria go over cleanly, that'd be ridiculous and would be stretching it quite a bit. If it were Chyna, it'd be a bit more of a even match.
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Post by eJm on Aug 11, 2007 13:30:03 GMT -5
Personally, I don't mind it in Pro Wrestling. It's just a part of the show, no biggie. I do see Billy's (may I call you Billy? ) point about Women being on the same low playing field, but there are several factors leading to this. 1. If you look at someone, like a Candice, she doesn't exactly look like someone who could beat the crap out of, say, a Snitsky . I'm not saying this is the case at all, but it's just one of those 'Judge a book by it's cover' things. For all we know, she could be a Black Belt or something. 2. Go up to someone like HHH and say to him 'Tonight, you are going to job cleanly to Ashley Massaro' and wait for his reaction. It'll probably involve a stretcher and a one way trip to the Hospital. He knows what people think of women in wrestling and if he lost to Ashley, he would probably lose ALOT of credibility. Also cons 3. Wrestling has always had a sense of 'Anything could happen', but sometimes you got to convince an audience something could happen. If someone can convince you that this woman can beat a man then the job has been done. The only problem is, I could only name one person, in my opinion, who could be built up this way, and that's Beth Pheonix. Not saying anyone else can't, but she has the look to convince people she could. It could draw, but it would take a damn tonne of work to do it. She used to do it. She used to Death Valley Drive two guys at once. Ahua! I saw that clip, which is why I said it. ;D
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 11, 2007 13:32:17 GMT -5
Victoria did alright agaisnt Carlito.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 11, 2007 13:32:24 GMT -5
Chyna was buff and considered a man, not feminine because feminine always = weak. Totally different. Well in wrestling it would be accurate. No one would pay money to see ditzy, beautiful, feminine, fragile Maria in against big,powerful, Lashley, and see Maria go over cleanly, that'd be ridiculous and would be stretching it quite a bit. If it were Chyna, it'd be a bit more of a even match. I'm not talking about having divas and random women who look like wimps go over men, of course not. My main point is that women are on the same unequal playing field as in real life. This isn't about going over in a fued. This is about the balance in who gets revenge on who and who gets attacked by who and for what reasons. Fragile is the key word. Those fragile little divas nowadays can't even take the bumps correctly. See my above post about wimpy-type women in wrestling. What happened to the Jackies and Lunas that could take the hits. Even Sherri could but these new women "wrestlers" in the mainstream products, nu-uhn, they look like you could break them right in half.
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Hiroshi Hase
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The Good Ol' Days
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Aug 11, 2007 13:36:38 GMT -5
Well in wrestling it would be accurate. No one would pay money to see ditzy, beautiful, feminine, fragile Maria in against big,powerful, Lashley, and see Maria go over cleanly, that'd be ridiculous and would be stretching it quite a bit. If it were Chyna, it'd be a bit more of a even match. I'm not talking about having divas and random women who look like wimps go over men, of course not. My main point is that women are on the same unequal playing field as in real life. This isn't about going over in a fued. This is about the balance in who gets revenge on who and who gets attacked by who and for what reasons. Fragile is the key word. Those fragile little divas nowadays can't even take the bumps correctly. See my above post about wimpy-type women in wrestling. What happened to the Jackies and Lunas that could take the hits. Even Sherri could but these new women "wrestlers" in the mainstream products, nu-uhn, they look like you could break them right in half. You're quite right, some of the ladies are tough and can handle themselves, but still no one would pay to see that. It'd be ok like the Jackie vs. Chavo Jr. feud in 04 because it was for the Cruiserweight title, but if she tried to go after Undertaker or JBL it wouldn't look realistic at all.
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 11, 2007 13:37:24 GMT -5
Well in wrestling it would be accurate. No one would pay money to see ditzy, beautiful, feminine, fragile Maria in against big,powerful, Lashley, and see Maria go over cleanly, that'd be ridiculous and would be stretching it quite a bit. If it were Chyna, it'd be a bit more of a even match. I'm not talking about having divas and random women who look like wimps go over men, of course not. My main point is that women are on the same unequal playing field as in real life. This isn't about going over in a fued. This is about the balance in who gets revenge on who and who gets attacked by who and for what reasons. Fragile is the key word. Those fragile little divas nowadays can't even take the bumps correctly. See my above post about wimpy-type women in wrestling. What happened to the Jackies and Lunas that could take the hits. Even Sherri could but these new women "wrestlers" in the mainstream products, nu-uhn, they look like you could break them right in half. Victoria or Beth would be good to have go over jobbers, to build them up. Jimmy Spinks of Townsville, USA, etc.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 11, 2007 13:38:19 GMT -5
I'm not talking about having divas and random women who look like wimps go over men, of course not. My main point is that women are on the same unequal playing field as in real life. This isn't about going over in a fued. This is about the balance in who gets revenge on who and who gets attacked by who and for what reasons. Fragile is the key word. Those fragile little divas nowadays can't even take the bumps correctly. See my above post about wimpy-type women in wrestling. What happened to the Jackies and Lunas that could take the hits. Even Sherri could but these new women "wrestlers" in the mainstream products, nu-uhn, they look like you could break them right in half. You're quite right, some of the ladies are tough and can handle themselves, but still no one would pay to see that. It'd be ok like the Jackie vs. Chavo Jr. feud in 04 because it was for the Cruiserweight title, but if she tried to go after Undertaker or JBL it wouldn't look realistic at all. I think people would pay. That was Jackie's whole thing around the time when she was the first woman ranked in the PWI 500. All she did was go coast to coast, country to country wrestling men and it drew. That was also Chyna's appeal. People will pay when the women seem capable. It's sort of a fetish like everything to do with women in wrestling. "Man dominated by Woman" sells DVDs elsewhere.
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Hiroshi Hase
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The Good Ol' Days
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Aug 11, 2007 13:40:22 GMT -5
You're quite right, some of the ladies are tough and can handle themselves, but still no one would pay to see that. It'd be ok like the Jackie vs. Chavo Jr. feud in 04 because it was for the Cruiserweight title, but if she tried to go after Undertaker or JBL it wouldn't look realistic at all. I think people would pay. That was Jackie's whole thing around the time when she was the first woman ranked in the PWI 500. All she did was go coast to coast, country to country wrestling men and it drew. That was also Chyna's appeal. People will pay when the women seem capable. It's sort of a fetish like everything to do with women in wrestling. To each their own I suppose, but the moment she gets beat down, we'll hear J.R or Cole go on about "This is unfair, she's a woman", and forgetting that she went in there willingly to face whomever. She's tough, no doubt, but I don't think there's any money in that whatsoever. The fans seem to be eating up Cena vs. Insert random heel here just fine.
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 11, 2007 13:44:45 GMT -5
I think people would pay. That was Jackie's whole thing around the time when she was the first woman ranked in the PWI 500. All she did was go coast to coast, country to country wrestling men and it drew. That was also Chyna's appeal. People will pay when the women seem capable. It's sort of a fetish like everything to do with women in wrestling. To each their own I suppose, but the moment she gets beat down, we'll hear J.R or Cole go on about "This is unfair, she's a woman", and forgetting that she went in there willingly to face whomever. She's tough, no doubt, but I don't think there's any money in that whatsoever. The fans seem to be eating up Cena vs. Insert random heel here just fine. Just because one thing sells means to have it all over the card. People demand variety. Tell me: Don't you think Daivari going up for a Airplane Spin from Beth would get a massive pop?
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 11, 2007 13:44:46 GMT -5
I think people would pay. That was Jackie's whole thing around the time when she was the first woman ranked in the PWI 500. All she did was go coast to coast, country to country wrestling men and it drew. That was also Chyna's appeal. People will pay when the women seem capable. It's sort of a fetish like everything to do with women in wrestling. To each their own I suppose, but the moment she gets beat down, we'll hear J.R or Cole go on about "This is unfair, she's a woman", and forgetting that she went in there willingly to face whomever. She's tough, no doubt, but I don't think there's any money in that whatsoever. The fans seem to be eating up Cena vs. Insert random heel here just fine. That's cause she's the underdog and instant babyface, the babyface always gets special treatment. Male or female. When Rey does Eddie's move it's a tribute but when Chavo does it, it's a disgrace. Same thing. There seems to be no money in women at all unless they're flashing their tits and being sex objects. Why do I love wrestling at all? *deep sigh* It certainly seems stupid to love something that women don't belong in.
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 11, 2007 13:45:38 GMT -5
To each their own I suppose, but the moment she gets beat down, we'll hear J.R or Cole go on about "This is unfair, she's a woman", and forgetting that she went in there willingly to face whomever. She's tough, no doubt, but I don't think there's any money in that whatsoever. The fans seem to be eating up Cena vs. Insert random heel here just fine. That's cause she's the underdog and instant babyface, the babyface always gets special treatment. Male or female. When Rey does Eddie's move it's a tribute but when Chavo does it, it's a disgrace. Same thing. There seems to be no money in women at all unless they're flashing their tits and being sex objects. Why do I love wrestling at all? *deep sigh* It certainly seems stupid to love something that women don't belong in. Women do have a place, but it's a struggle to get them over sometimes, like cruiserweights.
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