Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 11, 2007 14:38:27 GMT -5
I didn't read the whole thread, but I will say this. I'm not a big fan of violence against women to be honest. I guess it's because I have a few in my life who are extremely important to me I guess. I'm fine with it if it means getting someone over as a heel. I feel that a babyface, no matter how bad ass or how much like a heel they act should never touch a woman. Because that babyface can be showed to have some ethics, despite cheating, or using weapons to get over on his opponent. Maybe the babyface could threaten, but that's as far as it should go. However, a heel hitting a woman is good heat. People have mentioned Hernandez and the Border Toss on Gail Kim, and that was a really big deal. And even back in the day, when Jake Roberts slapped Elizabeth, that's heat. Chyna I guess is an exception, because she's in a match, and it's a competition. You have to try to win. Here's a fun fact anyway. According to Chyna, nobody wanted to get hit by her and have to sell it. The first person who was willing to do it was Goldust. So during a spot for a match, Goldust wants Chyna to punch him. And Chyna goes, no. Chyna doesn't want to hit Goldust. So during the match, their arguing back and forth, until Goldust just yells it out, and then Chyna decks him as hard as she can. Goldust is lying on the ground holding his mouth saying thanks. I think that all that went out the window when Steve Austin rolled on the scene and Stunned Chyna to a huge pop at No Way Out 1998. Though, Foley was the first to bump for her, and treat her like a threat.
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Hiroshi Hase
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The Good Ol' Days
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Aug 11, 2007 14:41:29 GMT -5
I think that all that went out the window when Steve Austin rolled on the scene and Stunned Chyna to a huge pop at No Way Out 1998. Though, Foley was the first to bump for her, and treat her like a threat. Well, to be frank she looked like a threat (and a dude), so she's the exception.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 11, 2007 14:43:56 GMT -5
Though, Foley was the first to bump for her, and treat her like a threat. Well, to be frank she looked like a threat (and a dude), so she's the exception. I'm in agreement, I think women deserve a division all their own, and they have one. I just think treating them as wrestlers would sell. Jazz was a hit before her injury, and Victoria got over as the lady, who, well, you didn't want to mess with.
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Post by leemir on Aug 11, 2007 14:47:42 GMT -5
A proper womens division would be good with a good womens match each week & on PPVs but we need to keep the hot "divas" around too
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 11, 2007 14:56:23 GMT -5
A proper womens division would be good with a good womens match each week & on PPVs but we need to keep the hot "divas" around too Just use them as valets, or for cheesecake matches. It's not difficult to understand.
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Jay Peas 42
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Post by Jay Peas 42 on Aug 11, 2007 23:10:07 GMT -5
1. Women's Wrestling is like Midget wrestling. Mostly for the novelity.
2. In general, Women make inferior athletes. I'm not saying they shouldn't try, but pro-wrestling is in the business of promoting competitions between the wrestlers who draw the most paying customers.
3. For the most part, it's fake violence. I consider attacking women to be the cheap heat, but it sometimes works. eg Dudleys. Man Buh-buh sold that orgasmic look.
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JMA
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Down With Capitalism!
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Post by JMA on Aug 11, 2007 23:50:51 GMT -5
I always thought the female wrestlers in DSW were the best part of the show.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 11, 2007 23:59:53 GMT -5
Damn! lol, am I allowed to say anything that broad about men without getting a reaction.
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Post by Jimichiro Likes Erick Rowan on Aug 12, 2007 0:34:37 GMT -5
I've never really had any issues, since it's all a work at the end of the day. I thought the Raven & Undertaker crucifying Sandman & Raven (granted, not at the same time ) were awesome & I'm a Born Again Christian. Like I said, it's all a work at the end of the day. And the whole Women's Wrestling thing... IMO, Vince McMahon killed off the credibility of women's wrestling in the attitude era by only showing women in the roles of sex symbols and, let's be honest, lousy as hell wrestlers compared to the men. And that's really one of the reasons I don't watch the divas wrestle on WWE - For the most part, they suck (Well, Mickie & Victoria are fine. Every other diva is awful, Candace is decent & I haven't seen a Beth Phoenix match so I can't judge). And part of it is I think Vince is cutting the girls off at the legs. I mean, God forbid Mickie/Victoria put on a better match then Batista/Khali. That just can't happen in Vince's eyes. Vince's formula works, I guess - hire models or failed porn stars, do a half-assed job at training them, then when they finally get to wrestle they'll put on bad enough matches & look inferior to the men. But marks will eat it up cause of tEH BOOBEEEEEEEZZZZZZ!!!!11!!1ONE!
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 12, 2007 0:35:38 GMT -5
teh BOOOOBEEEEEEEEZZZZZZ!1111111111
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Post by Gillberg: 0-175 on Aug 12, 2007 1:41:13 GMT -5
Billy is Silly, let's cut to the chase here. Why isn't women's wrestling respected (by most)? Because they are catering to the wrong people. If more women enjoyed wrestling, women wrestling would have more respect. Ain't my fault as a man that women for the most part aren't into sports. Sure, you got the WNBA, but how much press does that get? Do networks like Lifetime pick that up because they have superior ratings with the female audience?
Having women's wrestling up there with men's wrestling in a medium dominated with men is like having a Lifetime movie where the guy isn't doing anything wrong and the woman is the bad person. It's appealing to your audience.
You wouldn't see a black bad guy in a Spike Lee film, because his target audience is black. You wouldn't see a bad white guy at a KKK convention. And if blue people had their own wrestling promotion you sure as hell wouldn't see the one red guy getting over. It's all due to the audience.
You don't wanna get into a business where you need looks over talent? Organize a female wrestling fanbase and then see what happens. Instead of Divas you'd have Himbos.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Aug 12, 2007 1:49:07 GMT -5
I always thought the female wrestlers in DSW were the best part of the show. Indeed. Krissy Vaine and Shantelle Taylor in particular wrestled circles around most of the men on the roster.
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JMA
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Down With Capitalism!
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Post by JMA on Aug 12, 2007 2:28:20 GMT -5
I always thought the female wrestlers in DSW were the best part of the show. Indeed. Krissy Vaine and Shantelle Taylor in particular wrestled circles around most of the men on the roster. Don't forget Angel and Nattie. I think it worked so well in DSW because they just let the women go out and wrestle. There were storylines of course, but in-ring competition was what was emphasized. In regards to women's wrestling in general, I think the problem is that fans aren't conditioned to it properly. If they were presented with consistently good and credible female wrestling for, say, five years then they would see it in a better light. They see it as a sideshow now because they've been conditioned to see it that way. Another thing that could be done is to keep the valets and the female wrestlers separated. By that I mean not having them wrestle or have feuds with each other. Valets are female managers so it doesn't make since for them to feud with female wrestlers.
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Hiroshi Hase
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Aug 12, 2007 7:30:00 GMT -5
Indeed. Krissy Vaine and Shantelle Taylor in particular wrestled circles around most of the men on the roster. Don't forget Angel and Nattie. I think it worked so well in DSW because they just let the women go out and wrestle. There were storylines of course, but in-ring competition was what was emphasized. In regards to women's wrestling in general, I think the problem is that fans aren't conditioned to it properly. If they were presented with consistently good and credible female wrestling for, say, five years then they would see it in a better light. They see it as a sideshow now because they've been conditioned to see it that way. Another thing that could be done is to keep the valets and the female wrestlers separated. By that I mean not having them wrestle or have feuds with each other. Valets are female managers so it doesn't make since for them to feud with female wrestlers. To be honest, I didn't care too much about women's wrestling going back to the days of the Rock N' Wrestling era. I remember fast forwarding through Leilani Kai/Wendi Richter who some would consider very good women's wrestlers so I could see Hogan/T vs. Piper/Orndorff.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 12, 2007 7:47:30 GMT -5
Billy is Silly, let's cut to the chase here. Why isn't women's wrestling respected (by most)? Because they are catering to the wrong people. If more women enjoyed wrestling, women wrestling would have more respect. Ain't my fault as a man that women for the most part aren't into sports. Sure, you got the WNBA, but how much press does that get? Do networks like Lifetime pick that up because they have superior ratings with the female audience? Having women's wrestling up there with men's wrestling in a medium dominated with men is like having a Lifetime movie where the guy isn't doing anything wrong and the woman is the bad person. It's appealing to your audience. You wouldn't see a black bad guy in a Spike Lee film, because his target audience is black. You wouldn't see a bad white guy at a KKK convention. And if blue people had their own wrestling promotion you sure as hell wouldn't see the one red guy getting over. It's all due to the audience. You don't wanna get into a business where you need looks over talent? Organize a female wrestling fanbase and then see what happens. Instead of Divas you'd have Himbos. Shimmer has more female fans than you'd expect. People were talking about the success to be had if shimmer could get a show on oxygen (lifetime is so insulting to my intelligence as a woman) like MMA Fight girls. I don't see that ever happening but it'd rule all nonetheless. Oxygen was actually in negotations with a few of the vets of womens' wrestling bookers/wrestlers Lady Victoria, Fantasia and a few other bookers to bring a womens' wrestling product to the network but it never happened. Instead MMA Fight Girls happened. And I doubt I'd ever have the connections to get something like that rolling. But as far as audience goes, shimmer is a phenom, the men that show up show up to see athletic contests, shoot figths, pure wrestling between two women-it's amazing! It's almost like trying to get women to be more active in making porn designed for us-like PlayGirl, it's like pulling teeth to get women to stand up and do something BIG like that for equality's sake.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 12, 2007 7:48:47 GMT -5
Don't forget Angel and Nattie. I think it worked so well in DSW because they just let the women go out and wrestle. There were storylines of course, but in-ring competition was what was emphasized. In regards to women's wrestling in general, I think the problem is that fans aren't conditioned to it properly. If they were presented with consistently good and credible female wrestling for, say, five years then they would see it in a better light. They see it as a sideshow now because they've been conditioned to see it that way. Another thing that could be done is to keep the valets and the female wrestlers separated. By that I mean not having them wrestle or have feuds with each other. Valets are female managers so it doesn't make since for them to feud with female wrestlers. To be honest, I didn't care too much about women's wrestling going back to the days of the Rock N' Wrestling era. I remember fast forwarding through Leilani Kai/Wendi Richter who some would consider very good women's wrestlers so I could see Hogan/T vs. Piper/Orndorff. That's exactly why I was saying your points about there being no money in it are moot because you don't care about women wrestlers regardless.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 12, 2007 7:55:47 GMT -5
Here's a few notes about the wonders of having a female audience for a womens' wrestling show:
Nuclear Heat: I don't know if you've seen the Crush gals matches I've posted here before but because the wrestlers were girls the audience could truly relate to, instead of some bimbo with too much makeup on and huge breast implants (I'm supposed to idolize that, pfft puh-lease, I won't be conditioned into wanting to be a servant) they reaction was HUGE when something happened to them. When Dump shave Chigusa''s head the entire arena was crying and screaming, those girls were watching themselves be humilated when Chigusa was.
More heat: I don't know which shimmer show it was, I'm guessing one of the tournament nights but Portia was heeling the crowd and got up in this girl's face and heeled on her. then the girl stood up and she had almost two feet in height on Portia. I lol'd so hard when I saw the pics because I've never seen it go down like that in womens' wrestling.
I don't believe in womens' divisions at all, all they do is back up the notion of " women are a sideshow" which they are in that atmosphere. So don't say that all womens' wrestling is a sideshow until you've seen some Shimmer or CLassic AJW, ARSION or any joshi in general. All womens' shows (with mens' dark matches thrown in) are where it's at and can only be for womens' wrestling.
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Hiroshi Hase
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The Good Ol' Days
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Aug 12, 2007 7:57:28 GMT -5
To be honest, I didn't care too much about women's wrestling going back to the days of the Rock N' Wrestling era. I remember fast forwarding through Leilani Kai/Wendi Richter who some would consider very good women's wrestlers so I could see Hogan/T vs. Piper/Orndorff. That's exactly why I was saying your points about there being no money in it are moot because you don't care about women wrestlers regardless. Maybe it is and maybe it's not, but still it's not like it's not that obvious to see. Women's matches are put on usually as pissbreaks/popcorn breaks to calm the fans down after a huge match. I don't have to like it to know that, and that's just an observation I'm making. I don't think there's money in it, because the crowds for the most part don't care all too much. Not just me who thinks this, just that the crowds mostly care for the men and want to see that more than any women's match that's put on. It's a novelty really.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 12, 2007 8:00:45 GMT -5
That's exactly why I was saying your points about there being no money in it are moot because you don't care about women wrestlers regardless. Maybe it is and maybe it's not, but still it's not like it's not that obvious to see. Women's matches are put on usually as pissbreaks/popcorn breaks to calm the fans down after a huge match. I don't have to like it to know that, and that's just an observation I'm making. I don't think there's money in it, because the crowds for the most part don't care all too much. Not just me who thinks this, just that the crowds mostly care for the men and want to see that more than any women's match that's put on. It's a novelty really. Hence my above sentiments about how womens' divisions and womens' showcases aren't good for womens' wrestling. If that's all you've seen then of course you'll never be able to see it any other way. This isn't about wheter you like it or not, this is about what you're conditioned to and you've proven that it accounts for a lot. Quoting myself: Let's put it this way, if you've only seen womens' wrestling in divisions then of course you don't like it and you never will.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 12, 2007 8:01:55 GMT -5
And I still don't understand why women risk so much to perform for crowds that just don't care, especially if they were wrestlers prior to hiring.
In addition to that, I seem to remember fans caring about Lita vs. Trish steel cage main event on RAW.
Maybe not you but someone did. It's easier to focus on people who will help womens' wrestling than people like you who say "Don't like, never will" because that's useless to those who want improvement.
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