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Post by metalmike on Aug 11, 2007 14:11:14 GMT -5
It a sense, I mark when it happens, (mainly to heel women) because it is staged. LIke many forms of entertainment (ie music/TV/video games) one can enjoy the thigns contained within without it making them a bad person. Personally, the fact that I know its fake and part of the fun make sit less harmful.
Many bands I listen to discuss rape and violence towards females at length, doesnt make me a bad person to gaining enjoyment from that.
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 11, 2007 14:12:10 GMT -5
I'm not saying that. Mack never faced anyone big until Goldberg creamed him. She would just be the unobtainable woman. Beautiful, but will slap a lock on you to make you cry for mercy. Actually he was working his way up in that particular challenge, it started off with jobbers, then he faced Spike, then D-Von, then Bubba Ray and then Goldberg as I recall, so the challenges got tougher, they weren't all squashes. True, it was usually- wait, why was D-Von taking the challenge?
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 11, 2007 14:12:11 GMT -5
My original point still stands, women are on an unequal playing field in wrestling as in life. Maybe, maybe not. I know I wouldn't pay money to see a woman fight a man, no offense to the people involved, but I don't give a crap if they are fighting and to see a woman beat a guy, just couldn't buy it, unless she outweighed him and was like Chyna or Bertha Faye or something. I just prefer to see the guys vs. the guys and the women vs. the women, well to be honest I don't care for those matches either. Just one man's opinion. Okay so since you don't like womens' wrestling will you like ANYTHING women do in the ring? That's a little biased and it explains a lot. If they don't interest you against each other then surely they wouldn't interest you anyway.
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Hiroshi Hase
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Aug 11, 2007 14:14:34 GMT -5
Maybe, maybe not. I know I wouldn't pay money to see a woman fight a man, no offense to the people involved, but I don't give a crap if they are fighting and to see a woman beat a guy, just couldn't buy it, unless she outweighed him and was like Chyna or Bertha Faye or something. I just prefer to see the guys vs. the guys and the women vs. the women, well to be honest I don't care for those matches either. Just one man's opinion. Okay so since you don't like womens' wrestling will you like ANYTHING women do in the ring. That's a little biased and it explains a lot. Perhaps, I don't hate them or anything, don't misunderstand. I understand they put their bodies on the line just like the men do and that's admirable, but whenever a Raw or SD rolls around, I don't say to myself "Oh boy I can't wait for that Mickie James vs. Melina match". Just that it's a pissbreak for me, I respect what they do, but it doesn't necessarily mean I have to like it or watch it. If you do or anyone else does, more power to them.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 11, 2007 14:14:49 GMT -5
A match between Daizee Haze and Gran Akuma from CHIKARA comes to mind. She held her own very well in that match. I think the problem with 'women versus men' in WWE is that all the guys are 6'4 and over, while the women are dainty flowers.If the male wrestlers came in more realistic proportions, it would make more sense. Who isn't to say a woman can fight a man, if both are in great shape? But if you portray all of the women on your roster as a side show that exists only to wiggle and dance, it's not going to work.Exactly! Women are nothing but a novelty side show, that goes for the indys too.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 11, 2007 14:16:36 GMT -5
Okay so since you don't like womens' wrestling will you like ANYTHING women do in the ring. That's a little biased and it explains a lot. Perhaps, I don't hate them or anything, don't misunderstand. I understand they put their bodies on the line just like the men do and that's admirable, but whenever a Raw or SD rolls around, I don't say to myself "Oh boy I can't wait for that Mickie James vs. Melina match". Just that it's a pissbreak for me, I respect what they do, but it doesn't necessarily mean I have to like it or watch it. If you do or anyone else does, more power to them. But my point is since you see them as a piss break and don't really care about them then you clearly won't care about them either so your arguements are now kinda moot since you could care less about women anyway. See what I'm saying. You don't care about them anyway so of course you'd care even less if they faced men. I don't even know why women get into the wrestling biz anymore.
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Post by Gillberg: 0-175 on Aug 11, 2007 14:19:05 GMT -5
I think people mark over the fact that the face gets the better of the heel's manager. If it was Gail Kim, Cornette, Bearer or Christy if someone hits the manager/valet that keeps interfering, it's the face getting their dues. I think it boils down to that. Not sexism.
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 11, 2007 14:20:26 GMT -5
I think people mark over the fact that the face gets the better of the heel's manager. If it was Gail Kim, Cornette, Bearer or Christy if someone hits the manager/valet that keeps interfering, it's the face getting their dues. I think it boils down to that. Not sexism. Usually, that's the case for me. I hated Richards helping RTC as much as when Ivory did it.
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Aug 11, 2007 14:20:44 GMT -5
Perhaps, I don't hate them or anything, don't misunderstand. I understand they put their bodies on the line just like the men do and that's admirable, but whenever a Raw or SD rolls around, I don't say to myself "Oh boy I can't wait for that Mickie James vs. Melina match". Just that it's a pissbreak for me, I respect what they do, but it doesn't necessarily mean I have to like it or watch it. If you do or anyone else does, more power to them. But my point is since you see them as a piss break and don't really care about them then you clearly won't care about them either so your arguements are now kinda moot since you could care less about women anyway. See what I'm saying. You don't care about them anyway so of course you'd care even less if they faced men. I don't even know why women get into the wrestling biz anymore. I'm only one person and not everyone feels the same way I do, I was mostly talking about the general audience, so I think it does apply. I think I said already I wouldn't pay to see a woman fight a man, but I'm sure there are some who would, just saying it wouldn't be a very large number. To me they're a pissbreak, and it's clear to most of the audience as well. At WM18, after the big Hogan/Rock match, they put on the triple threat with Trish/Lita/Jazz to calm the crowd down as you could see most of the people sitting on their hands or getting some food from concessions or taking a leak.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 11, 2007 14:21:09 GMT -5
I think people mark over the fact that the face gets the better of the heel's manager. If it was Gail Kim, Cornette, Bearer or Christy if someone hits the manager/valet that keeps interfering, it's the face getting their dues. I think it boils down to that. Not sexism. We're tlaking about the other times. I'm all for women being punished, just making the point that just like in life women are on an unequal playing field.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 11, 2007 14:22:25 GMT -5
But my point is since you see them as a piss break and don't really care about them then you clearly won't care about them either so your arguements are now kinda moot since you could care less about women anyway. See what I'm saying. You don't care about them anyway so of course you'd care even less if they faced men. I don't even know why women get into the wrestling biz anymore. I'm only one person and not everyone feels the same way I do, I was mostly talking about the general audience, so I think it does apply. I think I said already I wouldn't pay to see a woman fight a man, but I'm sure there are some who would, just saying it wouldn't be a very large number. To me they're a pissbreak, and it's clear to most of the audience as well. At WM18, after the big Hogan/Rock match, they put on the triple threat with Trish/Lita/Jazz to calm the crowd down as you could see most of the people sitting on their hands or getting some food from concessions or taking a leak. I know, that's why I'm saying I can't see why women still get into the biz to wrestle. No one gives a damn unless you show your boobs. I'm not expecting large numbers to ever give a damn about women in wrestling who aren't showing their boobs. Just like women in any other sport, no one really gives a damn. Note that and tell me how it's not a man's world.
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Aug 11, 2007 14:23:41 GMT -5
I'm only one person and not everyone feels the same way I do, I was mostly talking about the general audience, so I think it does apply. I think I said already I wouldn't pay to see a woman fight a man, but I'm sure there are some who would, just saying it wouldn't be a very large number. To me they're a pissbreak, and it's clear to most of the audience as well. At WM18, after the big Hogan/Rock match, they put on the triple threat with Trish/Lita/Jazz to calm the crowd down as you could see most of the people sitting on their hands or getting some food from concessions or taking a leak. I know, that's why I'm saying I can't see why women still get into the biz to wrestle. No one gives a damn unless you show your boobs. I'm not expecting large numbers. Sad, but true, not much you can do I guess. Oh well.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 11, 2007 14:26:01 GMT -5
I know, that's why I'm saying I can't see why women still get into the biz to wrestle. No one gives a damn unless you show your boobs. I'm not expecting large numbers. Sad, but true, not much you can do I guess. Oh well. And I still want to be a wrestler too. this wreslting bug is hard to shake. I seriously considered giving away all my tapes and DVDs. But in the end a wrestling career would be selfish and for me alone because no one gives a damn unless you show your boobs. It's a man's world.
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 11, 2007 14:28:15 GMT -5
Of course it's a man's world. If that was an excuse to give up, though, nothing would ever get done.
It's not impossible to sell women's wrestling. You need to make it must-see and dynamic. If you build it, they will come.
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Post by Corporate H on Aug 11, 2007 14:28:23 GMT -5
I guess there's really not that big a problem with it as long as you, yourself, don't think about beating women.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 11, 2007 14:31:17 GMT -5
Of course it's a man's world. If that was an excuse to give up, though, nothing would ever get done. It's not impossible to sell women's wrestling. You need to make it must-see and dynamic. If you build it, they will come. Most people will never accept it as wrestling EVER doesn't matter how much work you put into it. You could kill yourself trying to make it work and work harder than Paul Heyman but it'll never work. That's a little too optimistic for reality, babe. ;D It being a man's world is just admitting and knowing that you don't fit in and that it's not your place.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Aug 11, 2007 14:33:54 GMT -5
I didn't read the whole thread, but I will say this.
I'm not a big fan of violence against women to be honest. I guess it's because I have a few in my life who are extremely important to me I guess. I'm fine with it if it means getting someone over as a heel. I feel that a babyface, no matter how bad ass or how much like a heel they act should never touch a woman. Because that babyface can be showed to have some ethics, despite cheating, or using weapons to get over on his opponent.
Maybe the babyface could threaten, but that's as far as it should go. However, a heel hitting a woman is good heat. People have mentioned Hernandez and the Border Toss on Gail Kim, and that was a really big deal. And even back in the day, when Jake Roberts slapped Elizabeth, that's heat.
Chyna I guess is an exception, because she's in a match, and it's a competition. You have to try to win. Here's a fun fact anyway.
According to Chyna, nobody wanted to get hit by her and have to sell it. The first person who was willing to do it was Goldust. So during a spot for a match, Goldust wants Chyna to punch him. And Chyna goes, no. Chyna doesn't want to hit Goldust. So during the match, their arguing back and forth, until Goldust just yells it out, and then Chyna decks him as hard as she can. Goldust is lying on the ground holding his mouth saying thanks.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 11, 2007 14:34:34 GMT -5
Of course it's a man's world. If that was an excuse to give up, though, nothing would ever get done. It's not impossible to sell women's wrestling. You need to make it must-see and dynamic. If you build it, they will come. Most people will never accept it as wrestling EVER doesn't matter how much work you put into it. You could kill yourself trying to make it work and work harder than Paul Heyman but it'll never work. That's a little too optimistic for reality, babe. ;D It being a man's world is just admitting and knowing that you don't fit in and that it's not your place. Still, accepting the status quo is something that I'm not cut out for. I really think people could accept female wrestling, with the right breakout star, and the right promotion. No one thought Vince could really pull off national, mainstream wrestling, and a lesser man wouldn't of tried. Those who fear change eventually fall behind when the innovator takes his spot.
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Aug 11, 2007 14:35:37 GMT -5
I didn't read the whole thread, but I will say this. I'm not a big fan of violence against women to be honest. I guess it's because I have a few in my life who are extremely important to me I guess. I'm fine with it if it means getting someone over as a heel. I feel that a babyface, no matter how bad ass or how much like a heel they act should never touch a woman. Because that babyface can be showed to have some ethics, despite cheating, or using weapons to get over on his opponent. Maybe the babyface could threaten, but that's as far as it should go. However, a heel hitting a woman is good heat. People have mentioned Hernandez and the Border Toss on Gail Kim, and that was a really big deal. And even back in the day, when Jake Roberts slapped Elizabeth, that's heat. Chyna I guess is an exception, because she's in a match, and it's a competition. You have to try to win. Here's a fun fact anyway. According to Chyna, nobody wanted to get hit by her and have to sell it. The first person who was willing to do it was Goldust. So during a spot for a match, Goldust wants Chyna to punch him. And Chyna goes, no. Chyna doesn't want to hit Goldust. So during the match, their arguing back and forth, until Goldust just yells it out, and then Chyna decks him as hard as she can. Goldust is lying on the ground holding his mouth saying thanks. I think that all that went out the window when Steve Austin rolled on the scene and Stunned Chyna to a huge pop at No Way Out 1998.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Aug 11, 2007 14:38:23 GMT -5
Most people will never accept it as wrestling EVER doesn't matter how much work you put into it. You could kill yourself trying to make it work and work harder than Paul Heyman but it'll never work. That's a little too optimistic for reality, babe. ;D It being a man's world is just admitting and knowing that you don't fit in and that it's not your place. Still, accepting the status quo is something that I'm not cut out for. I really think people could accept female wrestling, with the right breakout star, and the right promotion. No one thought Vince could really pull off national, mainstream wrestling, and a lesser man wouldn't of tried. Those who fear change eventually fall behind when the innovator takes his spot. That's sport's entertainment and SE for women= boobs, boobs and more boobs. Big fake plastic boobs. Bra and panties matches, Playboy matches that's what sells. A girl like me who won't do that over wrestling has no place in wrestling and I'm not as big as Del Rey so I can't carry myself as a real competitor and that's what counts. I don't even hate wrestling, I really really like it. It seems like a fit but then again it seems like a big waste really the only thing I could get out of it is meeting new people and travel. So why not get the implants?
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