For all you HBK Haters

[royboy8]

Everyone that bashes HBK seems to always say how he refuses to fairly put over younger talent and will always hog the spotlight at his advanced age.
This is the way I look at it.

Lets look at some stars that were at, or above HBK's level when they hit the big 4-0.

Hogan, was either dominating WCW or WWE with the title for an extended period of time. He didn't put a single person fairly over(Yoko won cheating)

Hart- was the wwf champ when he was 40 and refused to pass the torch to HBK, Montreal happened and he left.

Flair- Had the title at 40, and may times after that. Both of them needed title reigns(multiple ones) after that age to keep going.


Savage- How many title runs from the age of 40 on did Macho have? At least two that I could think of. And how many people not named Hogan did Savage put over after 40?

Nash- See above

Austin- Wouldn't even job on a cameo appearance to further a storyline(Taboo Tuesday- alleged). Walked out of a raw when asked to job to Brock Lesnar(HBK would gladly put him over)

Piper- He lost to Rikishi once lol


Out of all those guys, the only two people I will put on the same work rate level as HBK after 40 were Flair and Hart.

Hbk on the other hand, hasn't held a single title since he hit 40 and has only had 1 reign which was short, since his comeback.

He constantly puts people over and has one of the best matches on the card. Compare him to some of these guys above at his current age, is their even a comparison in what they have given back to the business and done for the good of the industry past 40? I don't think so. In my opinion, HBK deserves his current spotlight, and has by far been the most gracious of the " big stars" when they have gotten to 40 or over, when accepting it.


Rant Over

I'd like to hear opinions on this thread. Please lets not turn this into HBK-Hitman thread #32345

[theedge]

Bret Hart rules.

[Hiroshi Hase]

I admit that right now he's not as bad as he was in the mid 90's with his "losing his smile" and other stuff that would be used as copouts so he wouldn't have to put anyone over.

The only gripe I had is his little pregnant dog and moan promo the night after Summerslam where he felt it was necessary to say those things about Hogan. The way I see it, now he knows how people had to deal with in the mid 90's with him.

I think he's a great performer and has lots of charisma, just not my favorite wrestler though.

And also this thread would be Bret/HBK before it's all said and done, or Hogan/HBK also.

[Van Loki - Suck it, ECW]

Oh my god what is even the point of making this thread? No one is going to suddenly agree with you.


HBK does rule though.

[nesquik]

Piper also put Bret over.

[Mayonnaise]

I also want to add something on the whole, "HBK hasn't changed. Look at his actions at Summerslam against Hogan".

How many who quit drinking stumble and have a drink?
How many smokers who quit, have a moment of weakness and smoke a cigarette?
How many people on a diet cheat?

People who make MAJOR changes in there lives, sometimes slip up. To base your beliefs on whether or not someone has changed on one moment has their own problems to solve.

[Thomas Powers of Paine]

jinxed said:

I also want to add something on the whole, "HBK hasn't changed. Look at his actions at Summerslam against Hogan".

How many who quit drinking stumble and have a drink?
How many smokers who quit, have a moment of weakness and smoke a cigarette?
How many people on a diet cheat?

People who make MAJOR changes in there lives, sometimes slip up. To base your beliefs on whether or not someone has changed on one moment has their own problems to solve.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Quoted for absolute truth. People need to understand also that becoming a better Christian doesn't happen overnight, it's a long process and can take many years for some people to mature in the faith.

[Smarky]

But we do have to admit. Him overselling the big boot made for maximum hilariousness.

[TRUTH TELLER]

I guess people's issues with the guy stem from who he used to be, not what he is now. I consider post-2002 HBK a completely different guy. But for the sake of argument, and uh oh, I'm gonna talk about Bret, here's my two cents on a few things:

royboy8 said:

Hart- was the wwf champ when he was 40 and refused to pass the torch to HBK, Montreal happened and he left.

True, but Bret already passed the torch to him in 1996, and was then told by HBK immediately to get the f*** out of his ring. HBK then refused to return a job to Bret at WM 13 and faked an injury. He also breached his own contract in the summer to try and go to WCW because he basically didn't want to job to Bret again. Oh, and he also informed everyone around the time of Montreal that his days of doing jobs were over. So, although, one could argue Bret should have dropped the belt, HBK didn't exactly make it easy. But that's the past...(thank God

Austin- Wouldn't even job on a cameo appearance to further a storyline(Taboo Tuesday- alleged). Walked out of a raw when asked to job to Brock Lesnar(HBK would gladly put him over)

He shouldn't have had to job. There was zero payoff (They had no intention of having Jim Ross return) and having someone the magnitude of Austin job to a guy (Coach) who even if he did win would not further any angles, was stupid beyond all belief. Besides, one could argue that this one booking super-blunder cost them Austin vs. Hogan for Wrestlemania.

Hbk on the other hand, hasn't held a single title since he hit 40 and has only had 1 reign which was short, since his comeback.

He constantly puts people over and has one of the best matches on the card. Compare him to some of these guys above at his current age, is their even a comparison in what they have given back to the business and done for the good of the industry past 40? I don't think so. In my opinion, HBK deserves his current spotlight, and has by far been the most gracious of the " big stars" when they have gotten to 40 or over, when accepting it.


Rant Over

I'd like to hear opinions on this thread. Please lets not turn this into HBK-Hitman thread #32345

Sorry about the Bret stuff, but in my opinion HBK's character at the time merited it being a tough decision. I have no doubts that had it been anyone but Shawn that night, we'd just remember Survivor Series 97 as that ppv where we couldn't understand a damn word the announcer was saying ;D

But I do agree with you. Water under the bridge. Today's HBK rules. It's only a shame he wasn't always like this. If he was, ppl might speak of his name with the same respect and reverence as they do Ric Flair.

[Mayonnaise]

smarky said:

But we do have to admit. Him overselling the big boot made for maximum hilariousness.

Yes, I love it. Doesn't someone have it for their sig/avatar?

[destrucity]

The difference between HBK and many of the others on that list is that they waited until the age of 40 to stop putting people over. In HBK's case, he is the only man to vacate all the belts of the triple crown before the age of 40 rather than lose them in the ring.

[Scree is SCIENCE! ENERGY!]

I'm not getting into the whole debate again, but there was much more to the Austin/Lesnar thing then Austin not wanting to job to Lesnar, in fact he was all for it, but it was going to be done poorly with no build up, and Austin was frustrated with the company as a whole, the walk out WAS NOT JUST BECAUSE OF LESNAR.

[Kevwhatshisname]

psymilk said:

Oh my god what is even the point of making this thread? No one is going to suddenly agree with you.

HBK does rule though.

Yeah. HBK guys are going to stay on your side and Hart guys are not going to be swayed. You really didn't make a point. Hogan and the rest was wrong then too.
Just because he isn't as much of a dick as he was years ago doesn't change anything.

[tamuthetongantiger]

Hey... history aside and issues with him aside... he's talented in the ring (even most of his most vociferous detractors say that) and, he's had a great comeback run. He, like Flair, could have opted for a short term "legend run," where he could show up when it was convenient for him and when he needed a payday, but instead he's chosen to be an active, standout, regular part of the roster.

Though I don't hold limited "legend runs," against anyone who does them, I have a really hard time not respecting the people like Michaels and Flair who could have chosen that easier route but who instead chose to not only work arduous schedules but to work those schedules in a serious and competitive manner.

[tardis99]

jinxed said:

I also want to add something on the whole, "HBK hasn't changed. Look at his actions at Summerslam against Hogan".

How many who quit drinking stumble and have a drink?
How many smokers who quit, have a moment of weakness and smoke a cigarette?
How many people on a diet cheat?

People who make MAJOR changes in there lives, sometimes slip up. To base your beliefs on whether or not someone has changed on one moment has their own problems to solve.

But the problem is that you cannot decree yourself a reformed character when as soon as you're put back into the same situation you revert straight back to your old self.

HBK was perfectly happy and kind and christian and 'reformed' when everything was going great and he was happily plodding along the mid-card and main eventing with his great mate HHH but as soon as it came down to it he proved that he's still got the claws backstage. And all play to him, I've got no problem with him sticking up for himself backstage but there is a difference between standing up for yourself backstage and being petulent and spoiled and spilling that problem onto the TV show and in public.

I've got no concerns that whilst HBK is being built as a face in a good and positive light that he'll have no problems with anyone. As soon as he's asked to do something that he doesn't want to do again I suspect we'll see a lot more of the 'old' Shawn Michaels rearing his head.

[tamuthetongantiger]

tardis99 said:

jinxed said:

I also want to add something on the whole, "HBK hasn't changed. Look at his actions at Summerslam against Hogan".

How many who quit drinking stumble and have a drink?
How many smokers who quit, have a moment of weakness and smoke a cigarette?
How many people on a diet cheat?

People who make MAJOR changes in there lives, sometimes slip up. To base your beliefs on whether or not someone has changed on one moment has their own problems to solve.

But the problem is that you cannot decree yourself a reformed character when as soon as you're put back into the same situation you revert straight back to your old self.

HBK was perfectly happy and kind and christian and 'reformed' when everything was going great and he was happily plodding along the mid-card and main eventing with his great mate HHH but as soon as it came down to it he proved that he's still got the claws backstage. And all play to him, I've got no problem with him sticking up for himself backstage but there is a difference between standing up for yourself backstage and being petulent and spoiled and spilling that problem onto the TV show and in public.

I've got no concerns that whilst HBK is being built as a face in a good and positive light that he'll have no problems with anyone. As soon as he's asked to do something that he doesn't want to do again I suspect we'll see a lot more of the 'old' Shawn Michaels rearing his head.

Has he really reverted, though? I mean, sure, he buried Hogan after their match. But... it was Hogan, not some weak up-and-comer looking for a break to show his future potential. As I recall, after the Hogan match and Michaels' next-night promo, Michaels was loudly criticized and a lot of people said, "See, he's the same old self-promoter." But, picking on a guy like Hogan, a guy who's legacy is simply not going to be tarnished by a few hard words, is totally different than picking on somebody who is truly vulnerable.

Aside from the Hogan incident, is there really anything Michaels has done, since his comeback, that has hurt another performer (particularly another vulnerable performer)?

[The Jeebus]

tamuthetongantiger said:

tardis99 said:

But the problem is that you cannot decree yourself a reformed character when as soon as you're put back into the same situation you revert straight back to your old self.

HBK was perfectly happy and kind and christian and 'reformed' when everything was going great and he was happily plodding along the mid-card and main eventing with his great mate HHH but as soon as it came down to it he proved that he's still got the claws backstage. And all play to him, I've got no problem with him sticking up for himself backstage but there is a difference between standing up for yourself backstage and being petulent and spoiled and spilling that problem onto the TV show and in public.

I've got no concerns that whilst HBK is being built as a face in a good and positive light that he'll have no problems with anyone. As soon as he's asked to do something that he doesn't want to do again I suspect we'll see a lot more of the 'old' Shawn Michaels rearing his head.

Has he really reverted, though? I mean, sure, he buried Hogan after their match. But... it was Hogan, not some weak up-and-comer looking for a break to show his future potential. As I recall, after the Hogan match and Michaels' next-night promo, Michaels was loudly criticized and a lot of people said, "See, he's the same old self-promoter." But, picking on a guy like Hogan, a guy who's legacy is simply not going to be tarnished by a few hard words, is totally different than picking on somebody who is truly vulnerable.

In addition to this point, it may not have been Shawn's idea to cut the promo on Hogan after SummerSlam.

[tamuthetongantiger]

serjtankian said:

tamuthetongantiger said:

Has he really reverted, though? I mean, sure, he buried Hogan after their match. But... it was Hogan, not some weak up-and-comer looking for a break to show his future potential. As I recall, after the Hogan match and Michaels' next-night promo, Michaels was loudly criticized and a lot of people said, "See, he's the same old self-promoter." But, picking on a guy like Hogan, a guy who's legacy is simply not going to be tarnished by a few hard words, is totally different than picking on somebody who is truly vulnerable.

In addition to this point, it may not have been Shawn's idea to cut the promo on Hogan after SummerSlam.

A better point than mine, sir.

[tardis99]

It wasn't just the post-Hogan comments although coming out the next night and basically saying "what happened last night was fake, i agreed to lose now lets move on..." goes against virtually every protocol in the business as well as being exceptionally dumb given the huge buyrate it did, it's also the reports of him getting in the face of junior members of the creative team for putting him in a programe with Chris Masters. Also the very next night he burried Carlito, a guy who was in the middle of a stellar push, clean in the ring.

Not that I've got ANY problems with someone not wanting to be in a programe with Masters or being a total ass to creative but I DO have a problem with someone claiming how much they've changed and reformed when the only time that reformation is challenged they revert straight back to type again.

[tamuthetongantiger]

tardis99 said:

It wasn't just the post-Hogan comments although coming out the next night and basically saying "what happened last night was fake, i agreed to lose now lets move on..." goes against virtually every protocol in the business as well as being exceptionally dumb given the huge buyrate it did, it's also the reports of him getting in the face of junior members of the creative team for putting him in a programe with Chris Masters. Also the very next night he burried Carlito, a guy who was in the middle of a stellar push, clean in the ring.

Not that I've got ANY problems with someone not wanting to be in a programe with Masters or being a total ass to creative but I DO have a problem with someone claiming how much they've changed and reformed when the only time that reformation is challenged they revert straight back to type again.

Good points. And, for awhile there, both Flair and Michaels were beating Carlito and Masters and I know we debated, at the time, the advisability of that. I guess all I can say is that neither Carlito or Masters were really hurt by it -- both are major characters on the show now, bigger than they were then and were probably helped, even in losing, by working with people who had stature and notoriety.

People never change completely. I totally buy that Michaels still has an arrogant streak and still wants to protect his spot. I guess what I don't see now is the noticeable backstage burying of other talent. I don't think he's torpedoed anyone. And, I think he's helped a lot of people. Consider Shelton Benjamin... even in beating Shelton on television he elevated the guy with that springboard clothesline into the superkick spot. Shelton's not where he should be right now but that's more due to bad booking and Big Mamas than anything. I won't claim Michaels made him, but Michaels helped.

Like I said, not personal change is ever total or complete or perfect. But I think his effect on the current roster, since his comeback, has certainly been more positive than negative.