Psychoblue
Don Corleone
WrestleCrap #1 Kona Crush mark (probably)
Posts: 1,664
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Post by Psychoblue on Mar 3, 2012 18:22:46 GMT -5
Unless you were listening in on the matches being put together, I don't know how you could immediately declare that every good match Miz has had he was undoubtedly carried to. That's not "carrying". One wrestler telling the other wrestler what to do occurs in pretty much every match. We just don't always notice it. The only real exception is when the match has been planned and practiced so much that the wrestlers have it memorized. Also, who calls the spots and who listens is based on who on which wrestler is the veteran and/or which wrestler is the heel. If a wrestler is both the veteran and the heel, then it's very unlikely that the babyface will call the match. Miz seems to call most of the matches if the many times he's been on "Some People Talk Too Much" is any indication.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Mar 3, 2012 18:30:41 GMT -5
Regardless, I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion. Rey and Triple H both have a large catalogue of great matches...Miz has a couple...that he was carried to. It's a sure sign that your argument is invalid when you have to try to change the subject and say "well what about this guy?" EFF THAT NOISE! You could make a case for Miz vs Rey or Miz vs Bryan, but how Miz vs Cena with their TV matches, or Miz vs Primo, or Miz vs Morrison (who, BTW, cannot carry anyone to save his life), or Miz vs Matt, Miz vs Lawler, or Miz vs Kofi (another man who cannot carry someone else because, like Jomo, he's very spot-heavy), or the large array of amazing tag matches he had as the In-Crowd, or how Miz vs Riley was one of the most over matches of the night at Capitol Punishment (granted, that PPV sucked). Like Ghidorah said, it's incredible just how much some of us like to delude ourselves into thinking that Miz is an outright BAD worker. I haven't deluded myself into thinking shit. I liked Miz at one point, but he has disappointed me with piss poor matches. All the ones you named off were either random TV matches that I missed, or matches that I didn't like very much. And yes, Morrison carried him in the Falls Count Anywhere match bc it was only good because of Morrison's spots, and the chance that he could win. Bryan definitely carried him in their matches as well. Cena couldn't do it though, so every match I've seen of theirs was boring as all hell (I missed that Raw match that people liked). Look, I don't think Miz is a bad worker. I just don't think he's very good. He has a boring moveset and doesn't particularly wrestle with much energy. He's not very athletic and I think his mic work is overrated. That's all fine, I could name off a few in WWE that are worse than him, but that doesn't make him a GOOD worker.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,814
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Mar 3, 2012 18:45:40 GMT -5
And the reason why he hasn't turned face yet is the same reason they won't turn Vickie Guerrero. Most fans legitimately don't like them. Chicago crowd,Atlanta crowd,Abu Dhabi crowd,etc...oh,and all the crowd in Miz's media appereances would strongly disagree with you.There's no way Miz is hated that much. Sure,I see a lot of Miz hate here.''He can't wrestle!'' or ''He botches his lines every time!''.There are even people who wish him to get fired because of his botch with R-Truth. I really don't care though.Miz entertains me like nobody does,that's what's important to be.In the ring,he's not as awful as people make him up to be.He's decent in the ring and definitely great on the microphone.Sure,he botches his lines a bit.But who doesn't? This might sound weird,but Miz is a fast talker and it's natural that he botches some of his lines.CM Punk,although I love him,waits like a minute between each sentence while either making mock faces or listening to the chants,he can think during the promo.But Miz delivers his lines in a fast and aggressive manner as of late.And despite a few botches,I still think he's great on the mic. Punk isn't immune to tripping over his words either. Though one major difference is that he has a character where he can shrug it off and acknowledge it. Miz can't right now.
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Post by celticjobber on Mar 3, 2012 18:53:24 GMT -5
He pussed out and almost caused R-Truth to break his neck and/or back. That's probably a big reason for his current status.
I was never a fan of his to begin with, so it doesn't bother me. Maybe he'd be better off in TNA? Or exclusively on NXT or something.
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Post by Codebreaker on Mar 3, 2012 18:56:05 GMT -5
Wow. Even after ignoring the blatant Miz haters in here I'm so surprised to see how many people genuinely dislike him. Personally, when he's given the chance, The Miz entertains the hell out of me. I love watching him. I don't care about people's cries of WORKRATE~! or LAZYNOEFFORTDOESN'TAPPRECIATEIT~! or RTRUTHBOTCHLOL~! The reason why I watch wrestling is to be entertained, and that's exactly what he does. If he doesn't entertain you too, then that sucks. Everyone's entitled to an opinion. I just wish you could have as much fun watching him as I do. Well, don't look at me. I disliked Miz before it was popular. *pushes up hipster glasses* /No really, I was one of the minority. Ugh, you're so mainstream. Everybody dislikes The Miz these days.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Mar 3, 2012 18:59:12 GMT -5
I'm a fan of the guy just because he gets so much hatred from so many people. It's hilarious.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 3, 2012 18:59:15 GMT -5
Anybody who brings up workrate is deluding themselves into thinking it even matters to the average fan.
The average fan isn't Dave Meltzer. The average fan doesn't hang out on wrestling boards. The average fan is an 11 year old kid who wants to see the bad guys get beaten by the good guys.
Daniel Bryan, a man regarded as one of the best, if not the best ring workers of his generation gets a bigger reaction out of the WWE crowds by acting like an asshole than he ever did by putting on great matches.
Miz is one of those guys who doesn't need to put on great matches to be good at his job. He has it in him to put on great matches, but he doesn't need to, as he gets the desired reactions from the paying audience. If it's not broke, why fix it?
Even as one of Miz's biggest supporters on this board, yeah he's not been on top form lately, but after nearly five years of being Mr. No Days Off it was bound to happen sooner or later.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2012 19:00:24 GMT -5
EFF THAT NOISE! You could make a case for Miz vs Rey or Miz vs Bryan, but how Miz vs Cena with their TV matches, or Miz vs Primo, or Miz vs Morrison (who, BTW, cannot carry anyone to save his life), or Miz vs Matt, Miz vs Lawler, or Miz vs Kofi (another man who cannot carry someone else because, like Jomo, he's very spot-heavy), or the large array of amazing tag matches he had as the In-Crowd, or how Miz vs Riley was one of the most over matches of the night at Capitol Punishment (granted, that PPV sucked). Like Ghidorah said, it's incredible just how much some of us like to delude ourselves into thinking that Miz is an outright BAD worker. I haven't deluded myself into thinking s***. I liked Miz at one point, but he has disappointed me with piss poor matches. All the ones you named off were either random TV matches that I missed, or matches that I didn't like very much. And yes, Morrison carried him in the Falls Count Anywhere match bc it was only good because of Morrison's spots, and the chance that he could win. Bryan definitely carried him in their matches as well. Cena couldn't do it though, so every match I've seen of theirs was boring as all hell (I missed that Raw match that people liked). If Miz looked bad, he wasn't carried. The entire concept of "carrying" means that a wrestler looked decent/good but only because of the other wrestler's efforts. And how can a match be good if there's only two wrestlers, and one of them stinks up the joint? I've seen matches ruined by one wrestler despite the other wrestler trying to make it work, but I don't think I've ever seen a wrestler perform so well that it canceled out an abysmal performance by the other guy. Even Chris Jericho, who is regarded as pretty damn good, has said that good matches are not one-man efforts.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,814
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Mar 3, 2012 19:02:35 GMT -5
Anybody who brings up workrate is deluding themselves into thinking it even matters to the average fan. The average fan isn't Dave Meltzer. The average fan doesn't hang out on wrestling boards. The average fan is an 11 year old kid who wants to see the bad guys get beaten by the good guys. Daniel Bryan, a man regarded as one of the best, if not the best ring workers of his generation gets a bigger reaction out of the WWE crowds by acting like an asshole than he ever did by putting on great matches. Miz is one of those guys who doesn't need to put on great matches to be good at his job. He has it in him to put on great matches, but he doesn't need to, as he gets the desired reactions from the paying audience. If it's not broke, why fix it? Even as one of Miz's biggest supporters on this board, yeah he's not been on top form lately, but after nearly five years of being Mr. No Days Off it was bound to happen sooner or later. Of course, as we've ALSO learned : Anyone who brings up the average fan is deluding themselves into thinking it even matters to the internet. And so round and round in circles we go.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Mar 3, 2012 19:04:51 GMT -5
Wow. Even after ignoring the blatant Miz haters in here I'm so surprised to see how many people genuinely dislike him. Personally, when he's given the chance, The Miz entertains the hell out of me. I love watching him. I don't care about people's cries of WORKRATE~! or LAZYNOEFFORTDOESN'TAPPRECIATEIT~! or RTRUTHBOTCHLOL~! The reason why I watch wrestling is to be entertained, and that's exactly what he does. If he doesn't entertain you too, then that sucks. Everyone's entitled to an opinion. I just wish you could have as much fun watching him as I do. Congrats if you're entertained by Miz. You know what's entertaining to me? Wrestling. Good wrestling with cool moves and interesting stories. Promos are also entertaining. Good, interesting or funny promos that show some real emotion. Miz just doesn't cut it for me. I hate that just because I don't like the guy, this means I'm a Miz hater, or I'm a bad wrestling fan because I'm missing his genius or something. All I know is that I think Miz is a great guy personally, he's my favorite Real World contestant ever and he seems legit cool in interviews. I was also a fan of his until around the end of his WWE title reign. Miz is one of those guys that I thought would eventually become a great wrestler...but I think he's already reached his peak. If what he's doing is the best he can do, then I have no interest in watching him perform. It's not entertaining when the guy does the same old shit every match. Hell, that's why I turned on Cena. The difference is that Cena has actually made an effort to perform at a main event level, whereas I've seen people in wrestling school that were more entertaining than Miz.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Mar 3, 2012 19:07:05 GMT -5
Anybody who brings up workrate is deluding themselves into thinking it even matters to the average fan. The average fan isn't Dave Meltzer. The average fan doesn't hang out on wrestling boards. The average fan is an 11 year old kid who wants to see the bad guys get beaten by the good guys. Daniel Bryan, a man regarded as one of the best, if not the best ring workers of his generation gets a bigger reaction out of the WWE crowds by acting like an asshole than he ever did by putting on great matches. Miz is one of those guys who doesn't need to put on great matches to be good at his job. He has it in him to put on great matches, but he doesn't need to, as he gets the desired reactions from the paying audience. If it's not broke, why fix it? Even as one of Miz's biggest supporters on this board, yeah he's not been on top form lately, but after nearly five years of being Mr. No Days Off it was bound to happen sooner or later. Who cares about the average fan? Everyone here is talking about their own personal opinions, not what the majority think about him. The average fan likes Hornswoggle. To me, their opinions are invalid.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Mar 3, 2012 19:07:21 GMT -5
Anybody who brings up workrate is deluding themselves into thinking it even matters to the average fan. The average fan isn't Dave Meltzer. The average fan doesn't hang out on wrestling boards. The average fan is an 11 year old kid who wants to see the bad guys get beaten by the good guys. Daniel Bryan, a man regarded as one of the best, if not the best ring workers of his generation gets a bigger reaction out of the WWE crowds by acting like an asshole than he ever did by putting on great matches. Miz is one of those guys who doesn't need to put on great matches to be good at his job. He has it in him to put on great matches, but he doesn't need to, as he gets the desired reactions from the paying audience. If it's not broke, why fix it? Even as one of Miz's biggest supporters on this board, yeah he's not been on top form lately, but after nearly five years of being Mr. No Days Off it was bound to happen sooner or later. Why should I concern myself with what the average fan thinks? I'm pretty sure the average fan doesn't like The Miz anyway, but that's neither here nor there. He's certainly not the kind of guy I would've liked when I was 11 years old, and I don't like him now. Maybe he'll improve, but he's one of the worst on the roster right now IMO. Miz isn't alone. I also feel the same way about Swagger, Jinder Mahal, and Ted DiBiase for instance. The difference is that Miz has been pushed much harder than any of them, but he's roughly on the same level. And before you say "well he can cut a promo" I'll go ahead and counter with "yea but the others have more impressive looks".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2012 19:11:03 GMT -5
Wow. Even after ignoring the blatant Miz haters in here I'm so surprised to see how many people genuinely dislike him. Personally, when he's given the chance, The Miz entertains the hell out of me. I love watching him. I don't care about people's cries of WORKRATE~! or LAZYNOEFFORTDOESN'TAPPRECIATEIT~! or RTRUTHBOTCHLOL~! The reason why I watch wrestling is to be entertained, and that's exactly what he does. If he doesn't entertain you too, then that sucks. Everyone's entitled to an opinion. I just wish you could have as much fun watching him as I do. Congrats if you're entertained by Miz. You know what's entertaining to me? Wrestling. Good wrestling with cool moves and interesting stories. Promos are also entertaining. Good, interesting or funny promos that show some real emotion. Miz just doesn't cut it for me. I hate that just because I don't like the guy, this means I'm a Miz hater, or I'm a bad wrestling fan because I'm missing his genius or something. All I know is that I think Miz is a great guy personally, he's my favorite Real World contestant ever and he seems legit cool in interviews. I was also a fan of his until around the end of his WWE title reign. Miz is one of those guys that I thought would eventually become a great wrestler...but I think he's already reached his peak. If what he's doing is the best he can do, then I have no interest in watching him perform. It's not entertaining when the guy does the same old s*** every match. Hell, that's why I turned on Cena. The difference is that Cena has actually made an effort to perform at a main event level, whereas I've seen people in wrestling school that were more entertaining than Miz. The thing that's causing you trouble is that justifying why everyone might like a match Miz had is because of his opponent, or variables that have nothing to do with the Miz. You don't like the Miz and that's fine, and there are some points that I agree with, I don't think he's been all that great lately which is in part Miz's performance and in large part the booking. It's fine that you don't like the Miz, but when you start spouting off the whole "who carried who" argument, you really have no place to definitively say who's carrying who, you just can't. You don't know. I was there live when Awesome Truth cut their first tag team promo and I can tell you they had everyone roaring, I was thoroughly entertained and I can't say it was all R-Truth. They had a good thing going for a while.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Mar 3, 2012 19:11:59 GMT -5
This happened to Sheamus last year, and it happened to Punk after his feud with Undertaker wrapped up, and they both did well for themselves. Heels in WWE who get hotshotted into the main event end up at loose ends and aimless for a while once their main event angles have wrapped up. The good ones rebound better than ever. The others end up like Jack Swagger.
Which side will Miz end up on? We shall see.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Mar 3, 2012 19:17:19 GMT -5
Congrats if you're entertained by Miz. You know what's entertaining to me? Wrestling. Good wrestling with cool moves and interesting stories. Promos are also entertaining. Good, interesting or funny promos that show some real emotion. Miz just doesn't cut it for me. I hate that just because I don't like the guy, this means I'm a Miz hater, or I'm a bad wrestling fan because I'm missing his genius or something. All I know is that I think Miz is a great guy personally, he's my favorite Real World contestant ever and he seems legit cool in interviews. I was also a fan of his until around the end of his WWE title reign. Miz is one of those guys that I thought would eventually become a great wrestler...but I think he's already reached his peak. If what he's doing is the best he can do, then I have no interest in watching him perform. It's not entertaining when the guy does the same old s*** every match. Hell, that's why I turned on Cena. The difference is that Cena has actually made an effort to perform at a main event level, whereas I've seen people in wrestling school that were more entertaining than Miz. The thing that's causing you trouble is that justifying why everyone might like a match Miz had is because of his opponent, or variables that have nothing to do with the Miz. You don't like the Miz and that's fine, and there are some points that I agree with, I don't think he's been all that great lately which is in part Miz's performance and in large part the booking. It's fine that you don't like the Miz, but when you start spouting off the whole "who carried who" argument, you really have no place to definitively say who's carrying who, you just can't. You don't know. I was there live when Awesome Truth cut their first tag team promo and I can tell you they had everyone roaring, I was thoroughly entertained and I can't say it was all R-Truth. They had a good thing going for a while. Dude, Awesome Truth was great. I won't lie, I was very entertained by them. It's just that what Miz did shortly before that team, and after that team has been mediocre IMO. I'm also upset with him because he was 1/2 of the Mania main event. That was my first time attending Mania, and was my birthday...and him and Cena put on a pile of shit match. That's not all his fault, but Cena redeemed himself afterwards...Miz didn't really. I'm not saying I hate Miz, or I'm incapable of liking him. I don't even think that saying I don't like Miz is accurate. I'm just calling it like I see it. And what I see in Miz is that he has potential, but insists on wrestling a really boring style for some reason. Maybe I have unrealistic expectations for him, but I've been watching wrestling since the early-mid 90's and I'm struggling to think of a guy in a similar position to him that has ever been as consistently disappointing to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2012 19:17:39 GMT -5
Bit of differing philosophies when it comes to things here, I think - while I think Miz is good in ring, personally I think so long as you're at least competent ring-work is one of the least important parts of a complete package.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 3, 2012 19:18:36 GMT -5
Who cares about the average fan? As the average fan makes up the bulk of the income the company receives, their opinions are most definitely valid. Everyone's opinions are valid, whether you agree with them or not.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Mar 3, 2012 19:30:21 GMT -5
Wow. Even after ignoring the blatant Miz haters in here I'm so surprised to see how many people genuinely dislike him. Personally, when he's given the chance, The Miz entertains the hell out of me. I love watching him. I don't care about people's cries of WORKRATE~! or LAZYNOEFFORTDOESN'TAPPRECIATEIT~! or RTRUTHBOTCHLOL~! The reason why I watch wrestling is to be entertained, and that's exactly what he does. If he doesn't entertain you too, then that sucks. Everyone's entitled to an opinion. I just wish you could have as much fun watching him as I do. Well lets see. - Throwing out leetspeak when nobody on the forum ever, ever types that way. - Falling back on the old "well I'm sorry if ypu don't feel the same way" like having a differing opinion is something to be pitied. - And acting elitist with the whole "I watch to be entertained" stuff. Well congratulations. You dismissed everyone elses opinions with a stream of condescending bullcrap. Well done.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Mar 3, 2012 19:31:12 GMT -5
Who cares about the average fan? As the average fan makes up the bulk of the income the company receives, their opinions are most definitely valid. Everyone's opinions are valid, whether you agree with them or not. Yeah, I honestly don't care about any of that. I'm a wrestling fan. I have no interest in pretending to be a part of the business aspect of it. The casual fans can like who they want, but they really have no place in this discussion, so there's really no point in bringing them up at all.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2012 19:38:20 GMT -5
Anybody who brings up workrate is deluding themselves into thinking it even matters to the average fan. The average fan isn't Dave Meltzer. The average fan doesn't hang out on wrestling boards. The average fan is an 11 year old kid who wants to see the bad guys get beaten by the good guys. Daniel Bryan, a man regarded as one of the best, if not the best ring workers of his generation gets a bigger reaction out of the WWE crowds by acting like an asshole than he ever did by putting on great matches. Miz is one of those guys who doesn't need to put on great matches to be good at his job. He has it in him to put on great matches, but he doesn't need to, as he gets the desired reactions from the paying audience. If it's not broke, why fix it? Even as one of Miz's biggest supporters on this board, yeah he's not been on top form lately, but after nearly five years of being Mr. No Days Off it was bound to happen sooner or later. See, Bryan gets it. He's acts like an asshole, and then he goes out and has a kick ass match. I don't care what the "casual fan" wants, and none of us are casual fans anyway so why do we always try to speak for them? I watch wrestling expecting good wrestling matches. Sure there's more, but I wouldn't watch it if the matches weren't fun to watch. If you're going to say that he doesn't "need" to have good matches, I will never agree with that. If you're a main event guy who takes pride in your work, who would you rather wrestle? Bryan or Miz? I think thats why things are the way they are lately.
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