To all the Hogan Bashers

[The Boss]

cactusmatt said:

theboss said:

Um, hate to break it to you, but the neck breaker drop was a standard move long before "Stinko" Steve started using it. Diamond Dallas Page (The Diamond Cutter) and HOLLYWOOD HULK HOGAN (The HOLLYWOOD Cutter) have used it for years. It is so standard in fact that there is also the reverse neckbreaker (Rick Rude) and spinning neckbreaker (Honky Tonk Man).

Hollywood Cutter??

Yeah, you remember when the nWo attacked DDP and HOLLYWOOD HULK HOGAN did a neckbreaker on the nWo World title belt (twice) he looked into the camera and called it the "HOLLYWOOD Cutter". I thought it was funny so I continue to use the name whenever HOLLYWOOD HULK HOGAN does a neckbreaker (such as when he won the Undisputed World title from Hunter Hearst Helmsley).

[Hiroshi Hase]

I only remember seeing Hogan use the Diamond Cutter a couple of times in WCW, once at World War 3 97 to DDP and a couple of weeks after that again to him on Nitro, then he did to Triple-H at Backlash 2002.

[JoshWoodrumGreaterThanHBK]

Hogan's diamond cutter on Triple H was pretty cool looking

["Hollywood" Cactus Matt]

theboss said:

cactusmatt said:

Hollywood Cutter??

Yeah, you remember when the nWo attacked DDP and HOLLYWOOD HULK HOGAN did a neckbreaker on the nWo World title belt (twice) he looked into the camera and called it the "HOLLYWOOD Cutter". I thought it was funny so I continue to use the name whenever HOLLYWOOD HULK HOGAN does a neckbreaker (such as when he won the Undisputed World title from Hunter Hearst Helmsley).

Actually no, I didn't remember that. But hey ... I guess if it happened, it happened. I had just never heard of it.

[The Boss]

skskillz said:

Well, you kind of made my point for me. The Diamondcutter was DDP's finish. The Stunner was Austin's (and it's not the same as a Cutter).

Of coarse it's the same move. You grab the guy by the neck and you fall to the ground pulling your opponent down with you and snap his neck. DDP just does a better job of delivering it.

Those aren't transitional moves.....yet.

Sure they are. The neckbreaker has been used as a counter to the atomic drop and sleeper hold since the days of Verne Gagne.

The DDT is used in mid-match nowadays. Shawn uses the flying elbow as a set-up to a KICK! At least Orton uses the Cutter (or Crusher) as a finish. Once we start seeing that as a transitional move, then we're in trouble.

The neck breaker (Rude's version) has been used in transition for years. It wasn't nearly as highly sold as Savage's elbow or Jake's DDT. Those two were arguably the two best finishes in the '80's (and I guess the Stunner and Cutter apply in the '90's).

What are you talking about. Rick Rude's reverse neckbreker (Rude Awakening) was one of the most devastating moves ever. In fact it was one of those early magic moves that would end a match at any time. Of course only when Rude applied it.

Usually (in the WWF anyway) when someone is using a move or hold as a finisher nobody else is allowed to use it (unless they are fighting that person and are thus giving them a taste of their own medicine) this was so not to dilute the hold's "devastating" impact by seeing others use it and not get a pin.

But trust me the neckbreaker has been around for years. If memory serves, it was Bobby Eaton who used to deliver it from the top rope.

[chibidiablo]

I still hate him

[The Boss]

chibidiablo said:

I still hate him

No you don't. You're just playing the heal. And that's fine. But we all know that you really like HOLLYWOOD HULK HOGAN.

["Hollywood" Cactus Matt]

theboss said:

chibidiablo said:

I still hate him

No you don't. You're just playing the heal. And that's fine. But we all know that you really like HOLLYWOOD HULK HOGAN.

Because everyone does, right?

EDIT: And, for the record, it's heel, not heal. I hate to be nitpicky, but the spelling error combined with the all capitalization of Hogan's name isn't helping your credibility at all, partner. Just a heads-up.

[Joker]

Little Warriros Unite!! ;D
-----------------------------------

Now that the Ultimate Warrior has got you attention.

I like Hogan but not so much that he is the be all and end all of wrestling. Sure I marked out like mad when he came back with the NWO and took on the Rock at wrestlemania. But then I marked out when Money Inc appeared on RAW a few months back.

Different strokes for different folks, lots of people around here think Melina is some sort of uber hot wwe vixen. I don't, I think she's some sort of Banshee sent to torment us but I try not to reinforce my view by linking an image of her to a foghorn.

I sometimes am the first to defend certain wrestlers who are not "hip" indeed I would probably go to town on someone who started an anti-Warlord thread (Yeah the big muscle headed guy from the late 80s) There however is difference between posting a defence and ignoring others opinions. Opinions are at the end of the day what being a wrestling fan is all about. e.g. see John cena.

[The Boss]

cactusmatt said:

Because everyone does, right?

Exactly.

EDIT: And, for the record, it's heel, not heal. I hate to be nitpicky, but the spelling error combined with the all capitalization of Hogan's name isn't helping your credibility at all, partner. Just a heads-up.

Hey, I'm not perfect. Who do you think I am, HOLLYWOOD HULK HOGAN?

Besides I hit spell check. If it went through then there is something wrong with the site's check. blame them.

[skskillz]

theboss said:

Of coarse it's the same move. You grab the guy by the neck and you fall to the ground pulling your opponent down with you and snap his neck. DDP just does a better job of delivering it.

They have the same intent (whiplash/snapping the neck), but they are performed in a different manner. A body slam and a powerbomb are not the same move, even though they are both designed to drop an opponent on his head/back at full force.

What are you talking about. Rick Rude's reverse neckbreker (Rude Awakening) was one of the most devastating moves ever. In fact it was one of those early magic moves that would end a match at any time. Of course only when Rude applied it.

I never said it was a bad move. I said it wasn't sold as much as Savage's elbow or Jake's DDT, hence it became easier for the WWF to abolish the significance of the move once Rude left. Dino Bravo's side suplex was devasting as well.....only when Bravo did it. In the WWF, EVERYONE'S finisher was treated with significance.

Regardless, my point was not about finishers being used before or after certain wrestlers. It was about devaluing them over time. The DDT is devalued. No one can use that as a finisher anymore unless they start establishing it again or telling others to stop using it (which they probably won't). That's the point of a finisher. No one else should use it (in the same company). It gives a wrestler a certain edge to him. "If he hits it, it's over". In TNA, you have wrestlers doing 15 finishes in one match. I'm not even going to bother talking about that though.

["Hollywood" Cactus Matt]

theboss said:

cactusmatt said:

Because everyone does, right?

Exactly.

EDIT: And, for the record, it's heel, not heal. I hate to be nitpicky, but the spelling error combined with the all capitalization of Hogan's name isn't helping your credibility at all, partner. Just a heads-up.

Hey, I'm not perfect. Who do you think I am, HOLLYWOOD HULK HOGAN?

Besides I hit spell check. If it went through then there is something wrong with the site's check. blame them.

Y'know, comparing Hulk Hogan to god, while certainly within your rights, I guess, is not only offensive to some, but I believe short-sighted and ignorant. Of course, fanboyism has always been one of my pet peeves, so whatever.

And "heal" is spelled correctly, but used wrong. "Heal" is a verb, meaning to make better, as in "the doctor healed my broken tibia." The word you want, "heel," is meant to indicate the guy who is trying to get booed.

Of course, if hollywood hulk hogan told you differently, I'm pretty sure it would be impossible to convince you otherwise, huh?

Oh, and if I can bring back an oldie-but-goodie ... I still wanna know what the weather is like "up there." You've never given me a specific answer.

[The Boss]

skskillz said:

theboss said:

Of coarse it's the same move. You grab the guy by the neck and you fall to the ground pulling your opponent down with you and snap his neck. DDP just does a better job of delivering it.

They have the same intent (whiplash/snapping the neck), but they are performed in a different manner.

And just how are the performed differently?

A body slam and a powerbomb are not the same move, even though they are both designed to drop an opponent on his head/back at full force.

Wait a minute. You're saying that DDP and "Stinko" Steve don't both use the neckbreaker and now you're saying that a body slam and a power bomb are the same move? Please explain this madness.

What are you talking about. Rick Rude's reverse neckbreker (Rude Awakening) was one of the most devastating moves ever. In fact it was one of those early magic moves that would end a match at any time. Of course only when Rude applied it.

I never said it was a bad move. I said it wasn't sold as much as Savage's elbow or Jake's DDT, [/quote] Not sold as much? Have you forgotten about the move vs move matches that Rude and Roberts had? It was more of a feud between which was the better move not who was the better man. Oh and who won that feud? Rick Rude. All Jake did was pull Rude's pants down (over and over).

hence it became easier for the WWF to abolish the significance of the move once Rude left.

What? You're the one who was complaining that these moves lost significance because they became traditional moves. Now you're saying that they didn't. Make up your mind.

Dino Bravo's side suplex was devasting as well.....only when Bravo did it. In the WWF, EVERYONE'S finisher was treated with significance.

That's what I said. For years Brutus Beefcake won his matches with the flying knee.

Regardless, my point was not about finishers being used before or after certain wrestlers. It was about devaluing them over time. The DDT is devalued. No one can use that as a finisher anymore unless they start establishing it again or telling others to stop using it (which they probably won't). That's the point of a finisher. No one else should use it (in the same company). It gives a wrestler a certain edge to him. "If he hits it, it's over". In TNA, you have wrestlers doing 15 finishes in one match. I'm not even going to bother talking about that though.

It's better that they are devalued A finisher is just a final blow given to an already beaten opponent. It's not supposed to be some magical move that beats anyone at anytime. The move you use is merely one you are comfortable with and that fits you and your size.

[hollywood]

One and for all, the Stunner and the Diamondcutter are not the same move.

I'm not going to argue on this because it's even less important than the ECW title.

[The Boss]

hollywood said:

One and for all, the Stunner and the Diamondcutter are not the same move.

Please back up your statement. Both men apply the move the same way. They grab the head of the man behind them, pull the opponent's neck to their shoulder and drop to the mat to cause whiplash on the neck. The only difference is that "Stinko" Steve lands on his rear while DDP lands on his back.

[The Boss]

cactusmatt said:

Y'know, comparing Hulk Hogan to god, while certainly within your rights, I guess, is not only offensive to some, but I believe short-sighted and ignorant. Of course, fanboyism has always been one of my pet peeves, so whatever.

HOLLYWOOD HULK HOGAN is GOD. He said so himself on Nitro after beating up sting. He went right up to the camera and said,
"That guy is nothin' I'm the man...." And then while bringing his face closer to the screen he shouted, " I-- AM-- GOD!"

Why would GOD lie to us?

Oh, and if I can bring back an oldie-but-goodie ... I still wanna know what the weather is like "up there." You've never given me a specific answer.

Up where?

["Hollywood" Cactus Matt]

theboss said:

hollywood said:

One and for all, the Stunner and the Diamondcutter are not the same move.

Please back up your statement. Both men apply the move the same way. They grab the head of the man behind them, pull the opponent's neck to their shoulder and drop to the mat to cause whiplash on the neck. The only difference is that "Stinko" Steve lands on his rear while DDP lands on his back.

Which is why a suplex is not the same as a brainbuster. Just because a move starts off the same way doesn't make it the same move if the end result is different. What about a bulldog and a headlock? (and please, spare me the term "bulldog headlock" or "brainbuster suplex," because I could call a bodyslam a "bodyslamming suplex" if I wanted and that doesn't make it the same thing.) Again, they start off the same but the end result is different. See also the Rude Awakening and the Shake, Rattle, and Roll versions of the neckbreaker. Start the same, both end in a pin, but esentially a different version of the same move.

And, if you wanna split hairs, Disco Inferno and Mikey Whipwreck both did stunners at one point in their careers (called the Chart Buster and the Whipper-Snapper, respectively) and nobody cried foul because they were the same as the Stunner, but different from the Diamond Cutter! Are we to believe that not one, not two, but three different guys "botched" the move? Or would it be easier to believe that guys who worked for different companies would want to "protect" a WWF/E guy by getting his move over elsewhere?

It's a different move, dude. And it's OK to be wrong sometimes. Get over yourself, please.

[hollywood]

theboss said:

hollywood said:

One and for all, the Stunner and the Diamondcutter are not the same move.

Please back up your statement. Both men apply the move the same way. They grab the head of the man behind them, pull the opponent's neck to their shoulder and drop to the mat to cause whiplash on the neck. The only difference is that "Stinko" Steve lands on his rear while DDP lands on his back.

For the love of...

Austin dropped his opponent's chin on his shoulder, "stunning" them. DDP dropped his oppnent's chin/face on the mat.

["Hollywood" Cactus Matt]

theboss said:

cactusmatt said:

Y'know, comparing Hulk Hogan to god, while certainly within your rights, I guess, is not only offensive to some, but I believe short-sighted and ignorant. Of course, fanboyism has always been one of my pet peeves, so whatever.

HOLLYWOOD HULK HOGAN is GOD. He said so himself on Nitro after beating up sting. He went right up to the camera and said,
"That guy is nothin' I'm the man...." And then while bringing his face closer to the screen he shouted, " I-- AM-- GOD!"

Why would GOD lie to us?

Oh, and if I can bring back an oldie-but-goodie ... I still wanna know what the weather is like "up there." You've never given me a specific answer.

Up where?

1) So ... blaspheme much?
2) Up Hogan's ass, goofy. I mean, that's why you love the guy so much, right? He's giving you free room and board?

(now I sit back and wait to be accused of some sort of Hogan's ass obsession.)

[hollywood]

cactusmatt said:

(now I sit back and wait to be accused of some sort of Hogan's ass obsession.)

Can't be worse than Vince McMahon's obsession with his own ass.