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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 21:14:41 GMT -5
Yes, there's another thread about this. But I need to rant. It's important for me to rant about this, actually to more or less save face. The reason being, if I don't, I'll feel like a hypocrite. I bash the X-Division (specifically the Motor City Machine Guns) for their bad selling. I've bashed indy wrestlers for bad selling. Selling is a huge pet peeve of mine, because it's hard to stay in a match where guys aren't selling. Back in the day, you didn't have that as much. Now, with guys on the indies for example, one excuse could be poor training. Frightmare for example in Chikara is the worst seller I've seen in wrestling, but I can give him the benefit of the doubt that he's green. But, this has to be brought up, and there is another thread about it, but this is important. John Cena's selling is horrendous. Now, when thinking about what to discuss in this rant, a few things need to be brought up. The Superman comeback is not new in pro wrestling. From listening to shoot interviews (*gasp* yes, I know, I'm using information from people who know better to base my points, I know some people aren't into that), examples like Wahoo McDaniels wardance (later taken up by Tatanka, or was it Jay Strongbow, maybe I should research this more). Jerry Lawler did it with pulling the strap down, where he was beaten to the point where he just couldn't take it anymore and fired back. And of course, Hulk Hogan's infamous "Hulking up" lead to many dramatic moments in WWE. Now, these were done by very experienced wrestlers and great workers. Not all the most athletic, but when it came to drawing money, they knew how to do it. Some guys today can't really pull it out as well, but are pretty good with their comebacks as well, and their selling. Jeff Hardy is a good example of someone who sold really well, and that helped make him a great babyface. So, while it can't be done by everyone, if done correctly, it can be very dramatic. Sympathy is another topic when it comes to babyfaces and selling. And this is one problem with Cena. Cena doesn't look like a bad ass in the same vein as, the Road Warriors. So, being a kick ass babyface who sells poorly is tough for him, because while he's certainly a big dude, he's not the biggest of the big. And guys who aren't can get a lot of mileage out of sympathy. This past Raw, Shawn Michaels proved that. What a dramatic and epic match he was in, and the crowd was going nuts, they were just begging for that hot tag. And when he finally got it, the crowd went wild. That's sympathy. Guys like him, Steamboat, Ricky Morton, they made a killing off of sympathy. And with Ricky Morton, he would sell so well, and had so much sympathy, that there would be girls in the crowd crying. And when it came too him getting lucky with the chicks, Honky Tonk Man said you had to beat the broads off of him. And with Cena, when he's getting beat up, he sells really well. Hell, that's a lot more then I can say for a lot of wrestlers. It at least builds up a drama, instead of giving out none. But, if the guy is punted in the head, and he's up a few minutes later and is out the next night, something's wrong. Or when he's getting all excited the next night, running around like an idiot. I mean, at least with Orton, he does a slow walk to the ring as if he was hurt the night before. And, it's crapping on the fans. Because, supposedly, he is getting his strength and determination from them. They are helping add to the drama, they are getting behind him, they are giving him confidence and motivation. But, hell, in the end, oh wait, he wasn't really hurt after all, so he didn't need your support. So f*** you fans! And not only is it a f*** you to the fans, it's a f*** you to everyone who's taken the punt. Batista, Triple H, CM Punk, Ric Flair, I'm probably forgetting a few. But what, is Cena somehow so much more powerful then all those guys. I mean, getting kicked in the temple has the potential to do some major brain damage, and Cena is up a few minutes later (now, usually there are two sides to reporting what happens on the pay per view, the person's perspective, and what actually happens, and sometimes it's a bit different, so someone correct me on that if I'm wrong). And like, Raven said it best. People who can take a beating and it doesn't hurt, they're not tough. The guy who gets the crap kicked out of him, and comes back for more is the real tough guy. I'll give an example from MMA. I was watching the pay per view after the last one, it was Randy Couture against some guy. And Randy is about 46, so he goes in with a disadvantage because of his age. And Randy was getting the fudge beat out of him, but he would always manage to escape and fight back. And the crowd ate it up. They loved every second of it. When Randy started making his comeback, the crowd would cheer more. He lost in the end though, but at the end of the fight, the crowd still loved him, because he tried hard, and he fought hard, and at the end, he was selling and everything, and the crowd loved him more for trying. Now I'm not saying it was fixed, but that shows a real life example of sympathy, and that these are concepts that should be focused on in wrestling. Now Batista, he gets a lot of flack, and I think Cena is much better in the ring then him, but Batista sells a lot better then Cena, which is odd, because Batista looks more bad ass looking then Cena. He's like a Hulk Hogan in the selling department, in that he may not be the most athletic, but he knows how to sell better then Cena and get the crowd into the match. And, these concepts can help build the ratings. Because pro wrestling is a drama, and selling is the most important part of wrestling. If this guy is just invincible, then it's going to be hard to get behind him when he's down, because you don't need to get behind him, he's going to comeback anyway. And, all the top babyfaces in wrestling did that. Rock did it. Austin did it. Hogan did it. Hart did it. Michaels did it. Why can't Cena do it? I agree with everything said here, including that Batista sells way better than Cena, which is why I like Batista a whole hell of a lot more despite Cena being a better wrestler in the actual wrestling department. However, being a better wrestler, as many Cena fans like to point out, is NOT all about how well you can wrestle. Its a lot of things. Things Cena either refuses to do, doesn't know how to do, or that the bookers wont allow him to do. I dont care about the whys, just what I see on my screen, and I cannot possibly root for a guy that never looks as if he is in any real trouble, never looks as if he truly needs my support. I mean, if they booked Cena in a Goldberg way it would make sense. You didn't want to see Goldberg sell, you wanted to see him kill people. They dont book Cena this way though. They portray him as Superman but treat him like he is Spiderman. It just doesn't work. Its the main reason I dislike him.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 19:13:53 GMT -5
It doesnt have to be even. Not even close. It just shouldn't be completely predictable.
You say why does it need to be even, I counter with why does Triple H need to win every single time? Why can there not be at least some doubt as to the outcome?
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 18:44:05 GMT -5
Is it possible to be fans of both HHH and Jericho? I used to be until HHH wore out his welcome and refused to evolve his character any.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 18:36:43 GMT -5
It is a pretty sad situation. I remember a while back in an inteview 'Taker said something like "When the boys feel like they have to go easy on me and treat me as a special case, I'll know it's time to retire." He seems like the kind of guy that would rather have a short hard hitting match than a twenty minute match with loads of showmanship but little action, in a Hulk Hogan kind of way. To be fair to him, though; that interview was conducted in about 2003 and if it's only becoming truly apparent seven years later, he's got nothing to be ashamed about. I hope he can get his injuries sorted, have a few more great matches with some choice names and retire whilst he's able to walk. The thing is I feel Undertaker is not ready to retire yet. He still has many good matches in him if you ask me and I feel he can still be main event. Did you even watch the match? Taker looks extremely run down right now. He came back way too early and it shows. He may have some matches left in him but he needs to heal up.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 16:54:05 GMT -5
One of my main problems with modern WWE is they try and TELL the audience that things are awesome, the best ever, epic, etc. They rarely attempt to give the fans any actual REASONS. They lose sight of the fact that if you give the fans something special you dont even have to tell them its special. They just know. Telling fans that something is the best didn't work in WCW, it doesn't work now. Make things interesting, dynamic and exciting and then people will find them as such. I agree with what you are saying, but it is funny that people fondly recall Rock when he literally called himself the Great One, most Electrifying, etc. EVERY NIGHT. True, but that started out as a heel thing, just like calling himself the Peoples Champ. It wasn't until later that it actually became true and then it didn't matter. Also, nobody said Cena shouldn't be hyping his matches, but of course someone is going to come in here and say thats what was being said or thats why people have a problem with it. At least when Cena was hyping his match with Edge and calling their rivalry one of the greatest, it had a lot more truth to it considering no other modern era WWE feud comes close.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 16:49:47 GMT -5
I was hoping HHH would come back out smirking, Legacy looks up at the stage...
HHH then points to the back.
WHAT DOES EVERYBODY WANT!!!
Al Snow comes out holding 5 Rottweilers on leashes.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 16:37:33 GMT -5
this is why I still refer to John Cena as Super Cena on occasion Triple H was out for a while but the ultra powerful Cena got up 3 minutes later unbelievable!!!! Cena is a cyborg sent from the future to protect Evan Bourne.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 16:29:18 GMT -5
I cannot stress how much I hate the Girls Gone Wild Sorority Cowgirl hat worn by Shawn Michaels. I'm surprised Joe Francis didn't look into potential litigation over this blatent trademark infringement. What with the hat, lazy eye, hobo beard and receding hairline I have taken to calling HBK Coyote Ugly.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 16:07:46 GMT -5
One of my main problems with modern WWE is they try and TELL the audience that things are awesome, the best ever, epic, etc.
They rarely attempt to give the fans any actual REASONS. They lose sight of the fact that if you give the fans something special you dont even have to tell them its special. They just know.
Telling fans that something is the best didn't work in WCW, it doesn't work now. Make things interesting, dynamic and exciting and then people will find them as such.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 16:03:20 GMT -5
This is why I think it's going to be hard to turn Batista heel again. If this didn't do it, what will?! Well in all fairness, they never go all the way when Batista does something questionable. Im sure if he just snapped and beat the crap out of HBK sending him to the hospital with WWE giving him a few weeks off and playing up that they dont know when he would return, with Batista bragging about it...that would work. Its just that WWE isn't interested in turning him into a full on heel.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 15:58:16 GMT -5
That's not what I'm saying. I have been reading them. I just don't like reading 6 of the f***ers when they all say the same at one point or another. So you're saying they're like WWE main events? Except instead of going for four months straight, these threads will die down within a week.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 15:56:52 GMT -5
Can't believe Batista didn't go heel out of this. He was a HUGE dick throughout. Guess that isn't different than usual though when you think about it. I kinda liked it that way. You expected him to go heel but instead Jericho turned into a heel out of this.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 15:54:44 GMT -5
I did too. A well booked feud that made sense, built off a previous feud HBK had and had some pretty good promos.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 15:50:48 GMT -5
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWN. Smh @ another Orton/Cena hate thread. There's about 6 of these on the boards now, couldn't you have said your little spiel in one of them? Or you could just, like, avoid the threads. It isn't that hard. I avoid praise threads for wrestlers I dont care for. Kinda like how I change the channel or simply dont watch if I am not being entertained. Its pretty easy to do. Its not as if someone coming in here and saying yawn is going to change peoples opinions or delete the thread. If anything it just bumps it up to the top and keeps it going.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 15:09:00 GMT -5
I don't think he will, but NO ONE has done it before, despite JR messing it up about Show everytime. Show won the WWE Title, WCW (Not WWE's World title) & ECW title. Cena would be the first to win the WWE, WHC & ECW. Shows accomplishment is more impressive anyway considering WCW was an entirely different company.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 15:03:28 GMT -5
As someone else said, HHH no sold the punt before. Also, RVD got punted before and wasn't sent into time out. Although the punt hadnt been established yet at that point. It wasn't so much Cena no selling the punt that bothered me as much as Cena no selling the entire HIAC match. I am starting to loathe John Cena as a performer just because the guy doesn't know how to sell during a match and outside of the ring WWE never wants to portray him as hurt or beaten up...not even for one week. I mean think about that. HE WRESTLED A HIAC MATCH AND NO SOLD IT. Satans structure my ass. Excelt that for a month after Backlash this year he was portrayed as being injured. 1. After basically being through something that should have killed him. He didn't even take a week off, it amounted to him saying he was hurt in promos. 2. His matches followed the same formula even though he was supposed to be hurt.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 14:57:06 GMT -5
People say 'AGAIN!!??' like it isn't standard for feuds to last this long. HHH/Rock did. July to October isn't so bad. And like it or not, they are the two biggest stars. I too did get the feeling that Cena was saying things to annoy the IWC, but that was only because of what I read on here before the show - that the fans don't want to see them again. His 'By the sounds of it, you all want to see us go again' was sort of the WWE saying 'This is happening because the people in the arena cheer it'. The feud has just been really uninspired though. Nothing has happened. You can't point to a particular Raw and say 'That's the week THAT happened' because nothing has. There's been no character development. If for example you had Cena take a more psychotic turn to his character to stand up to Orton in the build up to HIAC (while still being John Cena) then you could bill Orton as the one guy that could get close to rattling Cena's composure. We just need something. Some development in the storyline. Given that these are the two biggest stars, you'd think going into the final month of the feud that there would be some story, but there's been nothing. That is my biggest problem with it. No storyline to speak of. I said it already...HHH vs. Rock could happen multiple times because there was always a different dynamic to it. They were midcarders, now they are main event! Rock and HHH both had a stable, now Rock is alone and HHH has an army and the owner of the company on his side! Rock was a bad guy, now he is a crowd favorite and HHH is the most hated wrestler! You know. Differences. Little things that make you want to see them go at it again because it will be different this time. Cena vs. Orton has never been different. Its always the same thing every time since they started a rivalry. For instance, if during the Cell match Cena had snapped and started being really brutal, lost, then the next night apologized to his fans for losing focus on winning because for the first time in his life he really wanted to hurt someone. He explains that he lost his cool and it wont happen again. Then Orton comes out, lays down those stipulations and taunts Cena saying he is becoming more like Orton himself, with Cena struggling with the revelation. The next few weeks Cena tows a line between being a sportsman and going too far...then the match happens. THAT would be interesting. THAT would add mystique to the match and make me want to see it all over again because it would be different. Instead its just, hey everyone, wanna see us fight again? All right, well we will! I mean really. That just isn't enough. This isn't Chris Benoit vs. Kurt Angle. I need more than that to be interested, personally.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 14:44:17 GMT -5
"If you dont know, now you know."
"I am the best in the world at what I do."
"The choice of a new generation."
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 14:18:41 GMT -5
Cena definitely was not supposed to blade.
Nothing in the match called for it...plus the ending was Cena standing up pretty quickly and not looking very hurt at all. Why would he have bladed in that case? He stands up seeming perfectly fine with a crimson mask?
Beyond that, even in the past when similar things have occurred the wrestler still blades anyway.
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 6, 2009 13:57:47 GMT -5
Pretty much everyone no sold the HIAC matches outside of Legacy. Orton looked pretty chipper and DX was dancing and playing around like nothing happened. Well, yeah. I didn't like that either. It was just glaringly obvious with Cena to me, considering he took a beating and got up making a sad puppy dog face. Then the next night showed no signs of damage. As usual.
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